?

ThinksMarkedly wrote:And I've said before and will say it again: RFC must be holding something about MAlign tech that he hasn't told us about. The little we know about the Lenny Dets makes no sense as a warship. It's too slow and too vulnerable, depending exclusively on stealth. So I do think they must have some technological breakthrough we haven't heard about yet, which makes this ship useful in combat. Maybe it is a 2-million-gravity missile, but I don't think so. A 5-million-km graser is more likely and grasers are an area we've been told they've researched.

For purely stealth surprise attacks, I'd go smaller, not bigger. A Shark can do the job as well as an LD, but having a smaller profile it's less susceptible to detection. And if destroyed, the loss in investment is smaller.

Transplanted this organ from another thread.

Let's talk more about this graser. First, another question about GA grasers. During battle, I always got the feeling that even an SD targeted an enemy ship with just one graser. If this is true, I never understood why several grasers weren't trained on the enemy simultaneously. Is that a technical limitation, an orientation limitation or an error on my part?

Now back to the LD. Does the LDs size make a more powerful graser possible? Why are you positing an increase in graser power at the same time you seem to champion the notion that Manty tech has arrived at the ceiling of performance for traditional type weapons? A 5M-km graser also isn't a logical progression of GA tech, is it?

Simply the fact that the MAlign has produced powerful grasers without the use of a wedge startles me, lest I misunderstood the MAlign's graser torp tech. So who and what is to quantify the limitation of their grasers?

About these Sharks. Let's go with huge and small. Why can't a huge Collier drop off as many Sharks as possible, even if some are affixed to the outside of the ship. I said earlier in this thread, Killer Whales and Sharks both operating in the same system together should prove devastating even for the GA.

Has RFC given the crew complement of an LD?

cthia wrote:Let's talk more about this graser. First, another question about GA grasers. During battle, I always got the feeling that even an SD targeted an enemy ship with just one graser. If this is true, I never understood why several grasers weren't trained on the enemy simultaneously. Is that a technical limitation, an orientation limitation or an error on my part?

Now back to the LD. Does the LDs size make a more powerful graser possible? Why are you positing an increase in graser power at the same time you seem to champion the notion that Manty tech has arrived at the ceiling of performance for traditional type weapons? A 5M-km graser also isn't a logical progression of GA tech, is it?

Simply the fact that the MAlign has produced powerful grasers without the use of a wedge startles me, lest I misunderstood the MAlign's graser torp tech. So who and what is to quantify the limitation of their grasers?

About these Sharks. Let's go with huge and small. Why can't a huge Collier drop off as many Sharks as possible, even if some are affixed to the outside of the ship. I said earlier in this thread, Killer Whales and Sharks both operating in the same system together should prove devastating even for the GA.

Has RFC given the crew complement of an LD?

At the end I have the text from chapter 40 of Honor Among Enemies, where it is quite clear that a single ship was targeted with multiple grasers.

A bigger ship can hold and power a bigger graser (a LAC is an exception, since its single graser is bigger than any on a destroyer - I believe). The graser and the wedge are independent of each other, we know that the GA plans to have unmanned graser units to replace some mines at junctions (without mention of a wedge).

I suppose a collier could carry Sharks, but the Shark is hyper-capable; so does not really need to be carried (although that might make it easier on the crews).

I am not aware of any text about the Leonard Detweiler class, except for the little snippets when the Sharks were sent off, because the big boys were not ready.

Achmed staggered as the first massive graser blew effortlessly through her sidewall. Her flanks carried over a meter of armor, the toughest alloy of ceramic and composites man had yet learned to forge, and the graser tore through it with contemptuous ease. Huge splinters blew out of the dreadful wound, and her relative motion turned what should have been a single puncture into a huge, gaping slash. It opened her side like a gutting knife opening a shark, and air and wreckage and human beings erupted in a howling cyclone.

But that was only one of eight such grasers. Every one of them scored direct hits, and no one on the battlecruiser had dreamed a converted merchantman could mount such weapons. Her communication circuits were a cacophony of screams—of agony, of shock, of terror—as Wayfarer's fury rent her like a toy, and then the Q-ship's missiles came blasting in, stabbing her again and again with bomb-pumped lasers to complete the grasers' dreadful work.

cthia wrote:
Let's talk more about this graser. First, another question about GA grasers. During battle, I always got the feeling that even an SD targeted an enemy ship with just one graser. If this is true, I never understood why several grasers weren't trained on the enemy simultaneously. Is that a technical limitation, an orientation limitation or an error on my part?

Pretty sure that's a misinterpretation on your part (though to be fair we rarely see warships in energy range of each other - so there aren't a lot of times to have seen this) and I see tlb already provided one bit of text-ev showing multiple grasers targeting a single ship.


The Honorverse ships were initially modeled, loosely, on age of sail ships of the line and like them would be blazing away with every gun that will bear once they reach cannon (err, graser) range. So a warship would aim and fire every laser and graser on its broadside at its target.

The one exception I can think of might be anti-LAC defense where the large number of smaller ships might encourage a warship to split its energy fire across multiple LACs.

tlb wrote:

cthia wrote:Let's talk more about this graser. First, another question about GA grasers. During battle, I always got the feeling that even an SD targeted an enemy ship with just one graser. If this is true, I never understood why several grasers weren't trained on the enemy simultaneously. Is that a technical limitation, an orientation limitation or an error on my part?

Now back to the LD. Does the LDs size make a more powerful graser possible? Why are you positing an increase in graser power at the same time you seem to champion the notion that Manty tech has arrived at the ceiling of performance for traditional type weapons? A 5M-km graser also isn't a logical progression of GA tech, is it?

Simply the fact that the MAlign has produced powerful grasers without the use of a wedge startles me, lest I misunderstood the MAlign's graser torp tech. So who and what is to quantify the limitation of their grasers?

About these Sharks. Let's go with huge and small. Why can't a huge Collier drop off as many Sharks as possible, even if some are affixed to the outside of the ship. I said earlier in this thread, Killer Whales and Sharks both operating in the same system together should prove devastating even for the GA.

Has RFC given the crew complement of an LD?

At the end I have the text from chapter 40 of Honor Among Enemies, where it is quite clear that a single ship was targeted with multiple grasers.

A bigger ship can hold and power a bigger graser (a LAC is an exception, since its single graser is bigger than any on a destroyer - I believe). The graser and the wedge are independent of each other, we know that the GA plans to have unmanned graser units to replace some mines at junctions (without mention of a wedge).

I suppose a collier could carry Sharks, but the Shark is hyper-capable; so does not really need to be carried (although that might make it easier on the crews).

I am not aware of any text about the Leonard Detweiler class, except for the little snippets when the Sharks were sent off, because the big boys were not ready.

you are confusing Sharks and Ghosts

Sharks are ~5Mton podlayer testbeds
Ghosts are Frigate sized (~50-60 Ktons) unarmed scout ships.

cthia wrote:Let's talk more about this graser. First, another question about GA grasers. During battle, I always got the feeling that even an SD targeted an enemy ship with just one graser. If this is true, I never understood why several grasers weren't trained on the enemy simultaneously. Is that a technical limitation, an orientation limitation or an error on my part?

Now back to the LD. Does the LDs size make a more powerful graser possible? Why are you positing an increase in graser power at the same time you seem to champion the notion that Manty tech has arrived at the ceiling of performance for traditional type weapons? A 5M-km graser also isn't a logical progression of GA tech, is it?

Simply the fact that the MAlign has produced powerful grasers without the use of a wedge startles me, lest I misunderstood the MAlign's graser torp tech. So who and what is to quantify the limitation of their grasers?

About these Sharks. Let's go with huge and small. Why can't a huge Collier drop off as many Sharks as possible, even if some are affixed to the outside of the ship. I said earlier in this thread, Killer Whales and Sharks both operating in the same system together should prove devastating even for the GA.

Has RFC given the crew complement of an LD?

tlb wrote:A bigger ship can hold and power a bigger graser (a LAC is an exception, since its single graser is bigger than any on a destroyer - I believe). The graser and the wedge are independent of each other, we know that the GA plans to have unmanned graser units to replace some mines at junctions (without mention of a wedge).

I suppose a collier could carry Sharks, but the Shark is hyper-capable; so does not really need to be carried (although that might make it easier on the crews).

I am not aware of any text about the Leonard Detweiler class, except for the little snippets when the Sharks were sent off, because the big boys were not ready.

Theemile wrote:you are confusing Sharks and Ghosts

Sharks are ~5Mton podlayer testbeds
Ghosts are Frigate sized (~50-60 Ktons) unarmed scout ships.

Since we do not how big a Malign collier might be, it is still possible.

Jonathan_S wrote:

cthia wrote:
Let's talk more about this graser. First, another question about GA grasers. During battle, I always got the feeling that even an SD targeted an enemy ship with just one graser. If this is true, I never understood why several grasers weren't trained on the enemy simultaneously. Is that a technical limitation, an orientation limitation or an error on my part?

Pretty sure that's a misinterpretation on your part (though to be fair we rarely see warships in energy range of each other - so there aren't a lot of times to have seen this) and I see tlb already provided one bit of text-ev showing multiple grasers targeting a single ship.


The Honorverse ships were initially modeled, loosely, on age of sail ships of the line and like them would be blazing away with every gun that will bear once they reach cannon (err, graser) range. So a warship would aim and fire every laser and graser on its broadside at its target.

The one exception I can think of might be anti-LAC defense where the large number of smaller ships might encourage a warship to split its energy fire across multiple LACs.

Adding to the above, Grasers already come in multiple sizes - the smallest we're seen is about 40 cm aperture, all the way up to 650 CM aperture as a spinal weapon on the newest SDs, with the original Shrike Graser being the 150CM spinal Graser on a Homer class BC.

Since it is difficult to actually "See" where a ship is inside it's wedge, ships usually carry multiple energy weapons to bracket the entire probable volume where the ship could be.

I one time did a comparision for a generic SD. You are standing on the Moon firing a weapon with a beam the size of a SUV to a midsized house. It's wedge is 1/2 the size of New York state, the sidewall is the size of New York City, the place the ship could be is the size of Cental Park, and the ship is the size of the New Your Zoo.

so to make sure you hit the ship , you fire multiple weapons to bracket the area. Ship designers can only fit in so much so they gird the line - more smaller weapons or a handful of bigger ones.

Targeting has gotten better for a number of reasons, so designers (Manty and Grayson ones, at least) are now opting for fewer, larger Grasers in their broadside.

It is rare to see energy weapon combat in the books. I gave one example and another is in HOTQ were the final destruction is by energy weapons: "Four lasers and three far more powerful grasers went to continuous rapid fire, and there was no sidewall to stop them".

Another place would be in Flag in Exile, but I have not checked to see if there is explicit text on the targeting.

tlb wrote:

cthia wrote:Let's talk more about this graser. First, another question about GA grasers. During battle, I always got the feeling that even an SD targeted an enemy ship with just one graser. If this is true, I never understood why several grasers weren't trained on the enemy simultaneously. Is that a technical limitation, an orientation limitation or an error on my part?

Now back to the LD. Does the LDs size make a more powerful graser possible? Why are you positing an increase in graser power at the same time you seem to champion the notion that Manty tech has arrived at the ceiling of performance for traditional type weapons? A 5M-km graser also isn't a logical progression of GA tech, is it?

Simply the fact that the MAlign has produced powerful grasers without the use of a wedge startles me, lest I misunderstood the MAlign's graser torp tech. So who and what is to quantify the limitation of their grasers?

About these Sharks. Let's go with huge and small. Why can't a huge Collier drop off as many Sharks as possible, even if some are affixed to the outside of the ship. I said earlier in this thread, Killer Whales and Sharks both operating in the same system together should prove devastating even for the GA.

Has RFC given the crew complement of an LD?

tlb wrote:A bigger ship can hold and power a bigger graser (a LAC is an exception, since its single graser is bigger than any on a destroyer - I believe). The graser and the wedge are independent of each other, we know that the GA plans to have unmanned graser units to replace some mines at junctions (without mention of a wedge).

I suppose a collier could carry Sharks, but the Shark is hyper-capable; so does not really need to be carried (although that might make it easier on the crews).

I am not aware of any text about the Leonard Detweiler class, except for the little snippets when the Sharks were sent off, because the big boys were not ready.

Theemile wrote:you are confusing Sharks and Ghosts

Sharks are ~5Mton podlayer testbeds
Ghosts are Frigate sized (~50-60 Ktons) unarmed scout ships.

Since we do not how big a Malign collier might be, it is still possible.

I suggested it because of our discussions about limiting the ghost images on Manticoran sensors. Many ships could enter during one sensor ghost aboard a large Collier.

I also toy with the notion of huge MAN Forts which also carry several warships inside. Forts could double as a Fort and a CLAC of sorts, but carrying Sharks. CSHARKS. The S is "silent." Get it? LOL

Thanks for the reminder about the graser system Shannon came up with for WH defense. I had plum forgotten that. But they still have limited utility compared to a ship. Several shots then they die. But nowhere near a 3-second firing graser. But I suppose they have that power budget if they could reproduce the tech.

cthia wrote:[
I suggested it because of our discussions about limiting the ghost images on Manticoran sensors. Many ships could enter during one sensor ghost aboard a large Collier.

I also toy with the notion of huge MAN Forts which also carry several warships inside. Forts could double as a Fort and a CLAC of sorts, but carrying Sharks. CSHARKS. The S is "silent." Get it? LOL

Thanks for the reminder about the graser system Shannon came up with for WH defense. I had plum forgotten that. But they still have limited utility compared to a ship. Several shots then they die. But nowhere near a 3-second firing graser. But I suppose they have that power budget if they could reproduce the tech.

Since forts don't "move" what would be the point? That 5 Mtons which the Sharks each take up would be better used by weapons emplacements and ammo, than by a parasite that has more mobility and it's own habitation space. The reason you dock LACs at a CLAC is their lack of strategic mobility, limited endurance, inability to do internal maintenance, and low habitability volume. And their entry doors make huge holes in the armor scheme which make CLACs stay out of a battle unless forced.

Sharks could move under their own power, are strategically mobile, and have high endurance and habitability. So what would one achieve having a Shark inside a Spider fort, that one could not achieve with a Shark in formation?

cthia wrote:Thanks for the reminder about the graser system Shannon came up with for WH defense. I had plum forgotten that. But they still have limited utility compared to a ship. Several shots then they die. But nowhere near a 3-second firing graser. But I suppose they have that power budget if they could reproduce the tech.

They do NOT die the way a graser torpedo does; instead they simply have to be recharged, so they are completely reusable. They put out more energy per second than the torpedo does; the only advantage of the torpedo is the length of the shot, but then it explodes.

The power of the torpedo's graser wasn't remotely comparable to that of the weapon mounted by current-generation Shrikes, yet it was more powerful than any single bomb-pumped laser head.