What did Captain Zavala do next? and the SL's reaction.

Hi Rob or Armed Neo-Bob,

Kudos and thanks for your attempts to reduce our wordy footprint.

You're quite right Zavala knew about OB, and reached Saltash in April, but Mike was in Tillerman when news of Second Manticore arrived.

Allow me to disagree regarding the FF always being subservient to the OFS; I'm pretty sure the SLN has standing orders to immediately report threats to the SL, NTM SLN losses; especially when 4 BC's are destroyed by 5 CL's in less than 2 minutes at around 30 million km.

Those standing orders are probably several centuries old, back when the SLN was far more rational, but they should still be in force, however unnecessary they may have seemed for centuries, and Captain Myau may have to dredge them up to insist on informing the SLN what happened ASAP.

If the SLN doesn't have such standing orders that supersede normal cooperation with the OFS, its obviously no wonder then that its a dinosaur that's going to die long before the brain knows why.

I'd expect that the SLN would want Duenas's head for the loss of 4 BC's, especially if the senior surviving BC officers were to insist the whole idea was Duenas's, based on their conversations with Admiral Dubroskaya, that he was totally responsible, regardless of the state of war now existing between the SEM and the SL.

However, since it probably took around 1.5-2 month's to get the word to Sol even via a db or DD, Rajani might have initially suppressed it since it didn't bode well for Filareta; ie imagine what might have happened if Kolokoltsov had heard about it, and decided Crawford might not be bluffing and sent someone to order Filareta to stand down without ever getting close to a missile launch situation?

Once Rajani was out of the way, I'd expect the FF brass would insist on Duenas's head, while others in the OFS might point out how much worse he made the OFS look to the rest of the verge out there; ie violating a major interstellar treaty, acting in a piratical fashion, and much worse doing it all so ineptly as to be caught out lying in every particular.

Duenas might have thought he was an expert playing the system, but the system may demonstrate to him just how pitifully inept he really is; the worst sort of punishment.

If Zavala did as I've suggested and provided full details of Spindle, I could see Duenas realise Zavala was exactly correct as to how relatively minor the losses in Saltash are comparatively speaking, but how it emphasizes how outgunned the FF and SLN is, not something the OFS and SL need the rest of the verge to know just now.

I have previously suggested that imagery or sensor readings of FF BC's being blown away in Monica and New Tuscany, NTM Spindle or their surrender etc, would be enough for freighter crews who witnessed them to get free drinks in pubs or taverns in the next several systems they visited, especially those in the verge or protectorates, which are also copied and spread by other spacers etc in a geometric to exponential fashion.

News of such a screw up, and how the SL/OFS handles it, will only further inflame the region, whether they fry Duenas or not, NTM recognizing the SEM as the new military super power even before news of what happened to Filareta reaches the public out there, will dramatically shift the verge support towards the SEM and the GA.

Of course that means dozens if not hundreds of systems will all send ships to Spindle begging if not demanding help and protection or succor from the SL.

Governor Medusa's response might be quite quotable.

L

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:Hi, I will make my comments in the post; and I'm going to snip out my older comment.

Rob

lyonheart wrote:Hi Rob,

You are so polite!

I think you're probably right about there being another layer of bureaucracy specifically for the non-protectorates like Saltash, ie justified by its different separate status, which is was I meant.

I don't doubt he and the OFS has standing orders to report any threats to the league's security, but that's really the responsibility and duty of the SLN, or Captain Myau, and any attempt to interfere with her doing her duty could be the pretext needed to relieve him

Go back and look at Adm.Pyun's comments about his boss--in the protectorates, OFS is the top dog; the FF units do what they are told. period.

While the TQ may be close to the distances mentioned, ie the 300-400 LY diameter of the SL, I suspect the TQ's actual volume is considerably less.

Given how rare SLN/FF BC's were in the Madras sector before Monica, Dubroskaya's squadron is a mystery, but her detachments aren't.

Zavala left before news of OB reached Montana, so probably early March and arriving in Saltash in the second half, so his assumed db [or Myau's DD] should have reached Sol by the end of May or before Filareta leaves Tasmania, so until they know what happened to Filareta, which was July, the OFS bureaucrats in Old Chicago have around 2 month's to kick Duenas's future back and forth if Myau and the Lt. Governor etc didn't already take care of him and send a message not to bother.

L

Huh?? your timeline is skewed. News of oyster bay arrived in Spindle in February/March, with Michelle having a beer with Medusa, Oversteegen and Khumalo on the terrace of the Presidential Palace. She got the news on that a couple weeks after Battle of Spindle. It was April or so by the time she re-deployed to Montana; May by the she got word on what happened at Saltash; June by the time the word gets to Manticore, or Ambassador Crawford could rub Kolokoltsov's nose in it. Mike was still in Montana for the news of BoMa2, and she then moved to Tillerman (June).

The only person involved in Damien's OFS future is McCartney; he probably was too busy to spend more than two minutes thinking about it before calling in an aide, and getting a short list of replacements.

If he gets recalled at all, no one is going to think about him until he gets back to Chicago; at which point, he is scapegoated, or lost in the confusion of the sollie meltdown.

Rob

lyonheart wrote:Of course that means dozens if not hundreds of systems will all send ships to Spindle begging if not demanding help and protection or succor from the SL.

Governor Medusa's response might be quite quotable.

L

"Line starts at Flax orbit. Take it to the hyperlimit from there. Thank you for your cooperation...."

Hi JeffEngel,

Kudos again for your points.

Settling for a siege is exactly the wrong thing to do when Zavala has been brilliantly maintaining the momentum especially the psychological pressure up to that point.

Keeping Duenas or Pole from taking time to think about their other options, especially his options kept them from taking advantage of his limitations.

One way Zavala, Abby and Mateo kept them off balance was by continually showing they had more firepower and options than Duenas and Pole had thought they had; ie forcing them to constantly reassess or reset what they thought they knew, in effect spinning their wheels in shock, NTM keeping their attention so focused on them, they were ever being surprised by the RMN's next trick.

Like a bull concentrating on the cape, they were so busy looking at the obvious they never saw the sword behind it.

L

JeffEngel wrote:

Hutch wrote:Another thing mitigating a 'siege' or 'wait them out' effort.

Zavala had already experienced one bad surprise by finding four Sollie BC's in the system when he had no reason to believe that there was anything larger than a DD there. It had to be in the back of his head that if those four were there, maybe something larger and more numerous (like a SLN BatSqd) might hyper in sometime soon.

Far-fetched, but Jacob Zavala had been at Spindle and knew that someone had managed to get 9 squadrons of SD's out this way....who's to say a tenth wasn't proverably around the corner?

And while Rolands are indeed very tough customers, he had shot off about 40% of his ammo (8 of 20 rounds per tube, IIRC) at the BC's, so his ability to sustain combat would have been limited.

So not knowing what else might be coming over the Hyper limit would have worked against a 'long-term' stragety.


IMHO as always. YMMV.

I have to agree, but on the other hand (yes, I argue with myself, and sometimes represent more than two sides...) - he did now know that he could kill Solly BC's with fewer missiles by far.

But that does get back to minimizing casualties - Solarian ones, in this case. Killing Solarians is not an actual Manticoran aim as such, and the more SLN personnel die, the harder genuine peace is going to be afterward. I'm not going to claim it's a very strong priority, but if a fast rescue leaves you less likely to have to kill another great big lot of fellow spacers, it's an argument in its favor, all else being equal.

Other bad things that may happen with time include - at least - Duenas managing to get the Saltash authorities as such behind the quarantine, making it a Manticoran versus plucky Verge system problem politically, with OFS as the Verge system's possible rescuer, or at least fellow victim of Manticoran bullying. How well that would play anywhere is another issue, but I doubt Zavala would care to find out.

Psychologically, a siege is not going to present an image of strength, and the Gendarmerie and Duenas will figure that help is inevitably on the way: either the invincible SLN, or counter-orders from a "saner", cooler head up Zavala's chain of command. So they'd hold out and keep holding out, during which time the hostages are still in danger and the Gendarmerie morale is likelier to get tougher (and possibly their position better secured) if/when you do decide to go in.

A better trained, better equipped hostage rescue force would be great. I would also like a pony, and my cats would like to have a reign of blood and death and terror to fuel the nightmares of worlds. But in the meantime, Zavala had a situation that he had to deal with with the personnel, resources, and time he had.

n7axw wrote:IIRC Terekov took a COLAC along which not only had LACs, but a significant force of marines. I'm thinking that Zuvala could have used those marines to good effect. What happened on Shona station did have an improvised feel to it even though it worked out well. I guess marines aren't the only ones who must "adapt, improvise and overcome." I wonder if Mike put that on her list of things we learned from the experience and will do a bit differently next time.

Don

We know that Terekhov and Oversteegen both know the value of having plenty of Marines in the Talbott sector and that so I'd have to think that before Henke arrived in Spindle she'd been apprised of that problem, though I don't remember it being brought up in much if any detail. I think she dispatched the size hammer she thought she needed, and Zavala competently took it from there. Terekhov's expedition to Mobius was known to be different: from the get-go that boots-on-the-ground were likely to be required, part of the reason for using the CLAC was to embark as many Marines as they felt they needed to stop the Gendarmarie intervention battallions cold.

That said, one of the hallmarks of the White Haven / Caparelli / Givens leadership team and the Saganami tradition, training, etc. is that the officer corp(s) in these later books have a frighteningly quick learning curve. Look for more of the ground components possibly aboard marine fleet transport ships in future books, I'd think.

Hi Weird Harold,

The fact that the Rolands still don't carry Marines is primarily and precisely because it permits Abby and Mateo to shine in marine action they would other wise miss.

Since every Roland has a squadron level command deck with its supporting quarters for the staff, the ships not carrying a commodore etc could and should carry at least a couple squads of marines [if not 3 squads] just by using bunk beds etc.

If only 2 squads each and the flagship managed to squinch just one squad aboard, that would still be 9 squads

Given all the smart people in the chain of command who could have made this happen but haven't, when its the most obvious defect of the design, it kind of shouts the lack is more for story telling purposes since there wasn't and isn't such a significant lack of marines in the first place, especially when all the reserves were called up when the Second Haven war started, before the first Roland was completed so BuShips should have made some modifications to add marines, since the notion of a warship without marines is kind of bizarre.

L

Weird Harold wrote:*quote="Torlek"*
If the rescue wasn't led by someone with combat experience and tactical training assisted by her bodyguard, the former Marine, you might well be right as well. ...

True but that does not constitute a competent hostage rescue team.

Unfortunately, Roland-class Destroyers don't normally carry "a competent hostage rescue team" I don't believe ANY warship, R/W or Honorverse, carries a dedicated Hostage Rescue Team, but The whole situation in Saltash highlights the problem with small warship crews without a marine contingent. At least Cdr Kaplan and Capt Zavala had enough foresight to find the best qualified people and provide some training in normal Marine functions, like boarding actions and hostage rescue.[/quote]

lyonheart wrote:Hi Weird Harold,

The fact that the Rolands still don't carry Marines is primarily and precisely because it permits Abby and Mateo to shine in marine action they would other wise miss.

Since every Roland has a squadron level command deck with its supporting quarters for the staff, the ships not carrying a commodore etc could and should carry at least a couple squads of marines [if not 3 squads] just by using bunk beds etc.

If only 2 squads each and the flagship managed to squinch just one squad aboard, that would still be 9 squads

Given all the smart people in the chain of command who could have made this happen but haven't, when its the most obvious defect of the design, it kind of shouts the lack is more for story telling purposes since there wasn't and isn't such a significant lack of marines in the first place, especially when all the reserves were called up when the Second Haven war started, before the first Roland was completed so BuShips should have made some modifications to add marines, since the notion of a warship without marines is kind of bizarre.

L

Weird Harold wrote:*quote="Torlek"*
If the rescue wasn't led by someone with combat experience and tactical training assisted by her bodyguard, the former Marine, you might well be right as well. ...

True but that does not constitute a competent hostage rescue team.

Unfortunately, Roland-class Destroyers don't normally carry "a competent hostage rescue team" I don't believe ANY warship, R/W or Honorverse, carries a dedicated Hostage Rescue Team, but The whole situation in Saltash highlights the problem with small warship crews without a marine contingent. At least Cdr Kaplan and Capt Zavala had enough foresight to find the best qualified people and provide some training in normal Marine functions, like boarding actions and hostage rescue.

[/quote]


--------------

Keep in mind that the presence / assignment of a MarDet on a ship is dependent on the ship's intended / designed mission.
We had a sizable MarDet on Enterprise (CVN-65) for a lot of obvious reasons. We did NOT have a MarDet on California (CGN-36) -- ships crew, primarily from Deck, Ops and Comm qualified with small arms performed the security and reaction force duties.
The same with the Rolands -- the original design / intent did not include a MarDet. That may change with Flight II or Flight III Rolands as their mission is re-evaluated.

-- Stewart

JeffEngel wrote:

lyonheart wrote:Of course that means dozens if not hundreds of systems will all send ships to Spindle begging if not demanding help and protection or succor from the SL.

Governor Medusa's response might be quite quotable.

L

"Line starts at Flax orbit. Take it to the hyperlimit from there. Thank you for your cooperation...."

------------------

Just speculating here, you understand, but I am curious about the thoughts of the leadership of those systems in the Cluster who opted OUT of the Constitution and Annexation ??

-- Stewart

stewart wrote:

lyonheart wrote:Of course that means dozens if not hundreds of systems will all send ships to Spindle begging if not demanding help and protection or succor from the SL.

Governor Medusa's response might be quite quotable.

L

"Line starts at Flax orbit. Take it to the hyperlimit from there. Thank you for your cooperation...."

JeffEngel wrote:------------------

Just speculating here, you understand, but I am curious about the thoughts of the leadership of those systems in the Cluster who opted OUT of the Constitution and Annexation ??

-- Stewart

I thought the only system that opted out was New Tuscany, and they have other problems right now.

lyonheart wrote:Hi Weird Harold,

The fact that the Rolands still don't carry Marines is primarily and precisely because it permits Abby and Mateo to shine in marine action they would other wise miss.

Since every Roland has a squadron level command deck with its supporting quarters for the staff, the ships not carrying a commodore etc could and should carry at least a couple squads of marines [if not 3 squads] just by using bunk beds etc.

If only 2 squads each and the flagship managed to squinch just one squad aboard, that would still be 9 squads

Given all the smart people in the chain of command who could have made this happen but haven't, when its the most obvious defect of the design, it kind of shouts the lack is more for story telling purposes since there wasn't and isn't such a significant lack of marines in the first place, especially when all the reserves were called up when the Second Haven war started, before the first Roland was completed so BuShips should have made some modifications to add marines, since the notion of a warship without marines is kind of bizarre.

L

I think the absence of Marines is primarily to conserve people (that is, having X number of crew provide for a greater number of ships), and secondarily to reduce the life support/quarters commitments of those ships. Granted, there are meta reasons for it as you say, but unless the writing's got a serious problem, there are both reasons for things in-story and meta reasons.

So, you've got a point that the Rolands have some potential marine capacities whenever they're not burdened by a flag staff. That doesn't address the issue of the Marines just being somewhere else - such as with Terekhov where they are known to be needed.

Still though - with all the new ships, where are all the Marines? The RMN has gone from fewer ships with larger crews, including naval and marine personnel, to more ships with smaller crews with (among the smaller ships) eliminated marine complements and (among the large ones) proportionately equal or smaller complements.

Have they expanded the navy without expanding the Marine Corps? Are the Marines now more concentrated elsewhere? I think some of them had been tapped to supplement the Army occupying Havenite worlds, but those are likely to have started leaking back during the ceasefire at least.

Inquiring mind wants to know!

fallsfromtrees wrote:

JeffEngel wrote:Just speculating here, you understand, but I am curious about the thoughts of the leadership of those systems in the Cluster who opted OUT of the Constitution and Annexation ??

-- Stewart

I thought the only system that opted out was New Tuscany, and they have other problems right now.

Correct. The only system in the Talbott Cluster who voted against joining the Empire was New Tuscany. They have just lost their space station, are facing questioning from Manticore over their collaboration with a terrorist, and probably entering a constitutional crisis.