Honorverse ramblings and musings

Weird Harold wrote:

cthia wrote:Or, since they knew Young would be the one guarding the gate, why they didn't just plan to smuggle thousands of tailor-made heavy artillery to the Stilthies.

It's called Plausible Deniability.

It's remotely possible some Stilty genious came up with the breechloading flintlock and black powder. It is NOT plausible that the came up with heavy artillery, since they don't have that much cast iron or brass or the casting technology to leapfrog from. They do have the blacksmithing skills to build the flintlocks.

cthia wrote:And what was the reason for Coglin or the courier boat to be needed. Just have a guy on planet looking at his Timex until time to yell charge!

It wasn't enough to generate a slaughter of massive proportions, the PRH plan required a Havenite Fleet to rush to the rescue and claim the system for Haven on the grounds that Manticore was proven incapable of protecting off-worlders or indigenes.

Yes, but plausible deniability would still come into play if the weapons would have come from a manufacturer other than Haven.

Why didn't they just teach them to make them? Text-ev states it's just a matter of time 'til they do anyways, after the fact. Plausible deniability still. "What, we didn't teach them to make the things. And we didn't supply the metal."

"Give them a gun, they shoot for a day. Give them the plans and they raise holy-hell."

cthia wrote:
Yes, but plausible deniability would still come into play if the weapons would have come from a manufacturer other than Haven.

Why didn't they just teach them to make them? Text-ev states it's just a matter of time 'til they do anyways, after the fact. Plausible deniability still. "What, we didn't teach them to make the things. And we didn't supply the metal."

"Give them a gun, they shoot for a day. Give them the plans and they raise holy-hell."

I think there are a couple of things going on here. From the Peeps point of view, they only want the Stilties to be able to shoot for a day. After all, ideally, if their plan succeeds, they will be the new custodians of the planet and "protecters" of the natives. The more capable the weapons in native hands, the more difficult the job becomes.

As for the dispatch boat and Sirrus' presence, the plan was to have the "merchi" flee the scene to the PN squadrons so that they could "ride in as the Calvary to save the day," proving they could protect the enclaves when Manticore couldn't. Or they would call off the squadrons if the plan bombed out. Coglin was trying to get to the squadrons to warn them off when he was forced by Fearless to engage. Where the dispatch boat was heading, we aren't told. I suspect back up the junction to Haven with the bad news.

Don

n7axw wrote:

cthia wrote:
Yes, but plausible deniability would still come into play if the weapons would have come from a manufacturer other than Haven.

Why didn't they just teach them to make them? Text-ev states it's just a matter of time 'til they do anyways, after the fact. Plausible deniability still. "What, we didn't teach them to make the things. And we didn't supply the metal."

"Give them a gun, they shoot for a day. Give them the plans and they raise holy-hell."

I think there are a couple of things going on here. From the Peeps point of view, they only want the Stilties to be able to shoot for a day. After all, ideally, if their plan succeeds, they will be the new custodians of the planet and "protecters" of the natives. The more capable the weapons in native hands, the more difficult the job becomes.

As for the dispatch boat and Sirrus' presence, the plan was to have the "merchi" flee the scene to the PN squadrons so that they could "ride in as the Calvary to save the day," proving they could protect the enclaves when Manticore couldn't. Or they would call off the squadrons if the plan bombed out. Coglin was trying to get to the squadrons to warn them off when he was forced by Fearless to engage. Where the dispatch boat was heading, we aren't told. I suspect back up the junction to Haven with the bad news.

Don

Remember that the fleet did have a target date. The Stilties jumped the gun on them, which is why Coglan had to run to try and warn them off, once it became obvious that Harrington hadn't been caught by surprise. The PRHN did show up a little later, only to be greeted by a contingent of Home Fleet just dropping in to say hello.

fallsfromtrees wrote:Remember that the fleet did have a target date. The Stilties jumped the gun on them, which is why Coglan had to run to try and warn them off, once it became obvious that Harrington hadn't been caught by surprise. The PRHN did show up a little later, only to be greeted by a contingent of Home Fleet just dropping in to say hello.

Yep. Egg very nicely planted on the Peeps faces...which resulted in them being denied the use of the terminus for their warships from that time on.

Don

n7axw wrote:

cthia wrote:Yes, but plausible deniability would still come into play if the weapons would have come from a manufacturer other than Haven.

Why didn't they just teach them to make them? Text-ev states it's just a matter of time 'til they do anyways, after the fact. Plausible deniability still. "What, we didn't teach them to make the things. And we didn't supply the metal."

"Give them a gun, they shoot for a day. Give them the plans and they raise holy-hell."

I think there are a couple of things going on here. From the Peeps point of view, they only want the Stilties to be able to shoot for a day. After all, ideally, if their plan succeeds, they will be the new custodians of the planet and "protecters" of the natives. The more capable the weapons in native hands, the more difficult the job becomes.

As for the dispatch boat and Sirrus' presence, the plan was to have the "merchi" flee the scene to the PN squadrons so that they could "ride in as the Calvary to save the day," proving they could protect the enclaves when Manticore couldn't. Or they would call off the squadrons if the plan bombed out. Coglin was trying to get to the squadrons to warn them off when he was forced by Fearless to engage. Where the dispatch boat was heading, we aren't told. I suspect back up the junction to Haven with the bad news.

Don

fallsfromtrees wrote:Remember that the fleet did have a target date. The Stilties jumped the gun on them, which is why Coglan had to run to try and warn them off, once it became obvious that Harrington hadn't been caught by surprise. The PRHN did show up a little later, only to be greeted by a contingent of Home Fleet just dropping in to say hello.

I always thought that they violated the KISS principle. Their plan was much too elaborate, even around the edges. With Sirius just sitting there jacking-off in orbit, part of their plan was telegraphed.

It wasn't like the Havenites were trying to coordinate two separate fleets in two different systems.

"On 'such date' have the Stilties attack at high-noon local time. We'll just happen to show up in force by coincidence at that same appointed time."

Much cleaner, no need for the Courier boat or Coglin.

cthia wrote: I always thought that they violated the KISS principle. Their plan was much too elaborate, even around the edges. With Sirius just sitting there jacking-off in orbit, part of their plan was telegraphed.

It wasn't like the Havenites were trying to coordinate two separate fleets in two different systems.

"On 'such date' have the Stilties attack at high-noon local time. We'll just happen to show up in force by coincidence at that same appointed time."

Much cleaner, no need for the Courier boat or Coglin.

IIRC, that was (in general) the plan, but the Stilties jumped the gun by attacking and massacring the crew of the scout ship, under the influence of Holy Men and Mehoka...which shows that getting people hyped up to attack (but only when you want them too) is double-dog daring Murphy to do his worst.

And Sirius (and the whole plan) was predicated on having a idiot (Pavel Young would have been the designated idiot, but textev indicates that the previous commanders there were no great shakes) in command of the SKM forces. They simply didn't calculate on Honor Harrington.

Pity about that.

Hutch wrote:

cthia wrote:I always thought that they violated the KISS principle. Their plan was much too elaborate, even around the edges. With Sirius just sitting there jacking-off in orbit, part of their plan was telegraphed.

It wasn't like the Havenites were trying to coordinate two separate fleets in two different systems.

"On 'such date' have the Stilties attack at high-noon local time. We'll just happen to show up in force by coincidence at that same appointed time."

Much cleaner, no need for the Courier boat or Coglin.

IIRC, that was (in general) the plan, but the Stilties jumped the gun by attacking and massacring the crew of the scout ship, under the influence of Holy Men and Mehoka...which shows that getting people hyped up to attack (but only when you want them too) is double-dog daring Murphy to do their worst.

And Sirius (and the whole plan) was predicated on having a idiot (Pavel Young would have been the designated idiot, but textev indicates that the previous commanders there were no great shakes) in command of the SKM forces. They simply didn't calculate on Honor Harrington.

Pity about that.

But they wouldn't even have needed an idiot on station if they'd done without the two 'useless' ships. Even Harrington wouldn't have been able to stop them if they'd a-come sailing over the hyper wall.

"Hey, we were just in the neighborhood and policy dictates that we contact our embassy. Guess what we have just been informed?"

Even Harrington would have been caught off-guard. And the Stilties jumped the gun because they grew weary of waiting to attack. They had to wait because the plan was needlessly complicated. Neither Coglin or Sirius was needed, as I can see. Or perhaps the Courier boat could have innocently shown up 12 hrs earlier to make sure all is well.

I'm with the Stilts on that one. "What's the phucking holdup?"

The Stilts were ready to spread lead. So let 'em.

cthia wrote:I have finally managed to get another sister to read an HH book.

"Well how did you like it sis?"

"Pretty good until I realized that there are tollbooths in space too!"


" "

(My sister hates tollbooths with a passion.)

Later conversation.

"Give it to Katyanna. She loves soap operas."

"You can't compare the Honorverse to soaps sis!"

"Sure I can. Manticore is "As The World Turns." Grayson is "The Guiding Light." Masada is "All My Children." The SLN are "General Hospital." The genetically engineered slaves are "The Bold and the Beautiful."

"You forgot the RHN."

"Ryan's Hope."

"Beowulf?"

"90210 and Peyton Place."

My sister. If it isn't John le Carre, Stephen Coonts, Michael Deaver, etc. Forget it. Sci-Fi isn't her cup of tea, or coffee.

Though I must admit. The soap comparisons are rather funny.

fallsfromtrees wrote:Except that these toll booths are more like the EZ-pay drive through without stopping - which are slightly less onerous.

And unless you're insanely wealthy, you're going through on a bus, so someone else has to take care of paying, not you (though of course a small part of your fare went to paying tolls).

drothgery wrote:

fallsfromtrees wrote:Except that these toll booths are more like the EZ-pay drive through without stopping - which are slightly less onerous.

And unless you're insanely wealthy, you're going through on a bus, so someone else has to take care of paying, not you (though of course a small part of your fare went to paying tolls).

Ummm, guys. My sister doesn't like the idea of paying tolls when she pays so much in Fed taxes. She feels she's being double-dipped, as she says.

PLUS. Out of six boys and five girls, only a single brother doesn't own a flat somewhere in Europe. (He hates international travel.)

Toll booths in the Royal UK can be a royal pain in the ass. France is a nightmare. Cash lines are too long. But. When you get up to your turn to pay in the credit card line, you find out that your *card won't work, isn't accepted or *whatever. And there's a looong line of honking cars behind you! Don't even ask what can happen then!

*The whatever is often the tollbooth thinking its a shredder and eating your ticket! Or sometimes it keeps your card. And it chokes trying to spit it back out.

*Oh, and your now non-working card, worked at the last booth!

Nothing like the junctions.