Honorverse ramblings and musings

cthia wrote:

They were officially rated 0.83 on the sentience scale, even using primitive tools like axes and fishing nets and were thought to be slightly more intelligent and mentally capable than Beowulf's gremlins or perhaps Earth's dolphins (HHA1.1: ABF). They were the twelfth—and physically smallest—intelligent species known to humans.

My question is whether the increase in mental ability from the genengineered celery affected their placement on the sentience scale.

Hard to say, because the 'cats didn't allow the "sentience part" out of the bag prior to Stephanie Harrington, and all -cats afterwards willing to be measured presumably have access to the celery. I doubt it is a supercharger; I sort of think it as being an "uber" nutrient for the cats up to a certain point, but not an "addictive substance", similar to how we need things like the B vitamins more when we're growing up but a certain lesser amount when we're grown.

The celery appears to be easier to grow and have more of nutrient X than the "purple thorn", so maybe later generations would gain in the intelligence scales, same way there seems to be an upward effect anywhere that nutrition is improved. So at best, maybe a futher genetic mod might be a 'cat growable celery variant with less of a clogging effect. It's not likely to be a cellulose problem by the way; I'd think more along the lines of how opiates affect human digestion. Could be just a trace element that changes the water absorption rates in the treecat's GI tract, blah blah blah .

Also, keep in mind that the majority of treecats aren't around those "two leg technology users", nor is there a portable power outlet/solar charging station out there in the Sphinxian back-woods. So purees, celery smoothies, etc. wouldn't be within what a 'cat would think of or maybe even like. I like eating fresh fruits and veggies to get my nutrients but have zero plans to ever buy a juicer or pureeing blender like some of the uber-health nuts seem to enjoy. So far neither does Nimitz, especially given that he can usually charm the good stuff off of his two leg buddies.

cthia wrote:

They were officially rated 0.83 on the sentience scale, even using primitive tools like axes and fishing nets and were thought to be slightly more intelligent and mentally capable than Beowulf's gremlins or perhaps Earth's dolphins (HHA1.1: ABF). They were the twelfth—and physically smallest—intelligent species known to humans.

My question is whether the increase in mental ability from the genengineered celery affected their placement on the sentience scale.

I suspect that it depends on when the sentience evaluation was done. If early (immediately after their discovery - effectively as result of the investigations done in A Beautiful Friendship, and Fire Season, then probably not, since the celery thefts had been scattered around the planet, insufficient to have fed a large number of 'cats in the wild. I suspect that this is the case, since after the 'cats learn to sign, I believe that their rating on the sentience scale is going to be a lot higher.

cthia wrote:

They were officially rated 0.83 on the sentience scale, even using primitive tools like axes and fishing nets and were thought to be slightly more intelligent and mentally capable than Beowulf's gremlins or perhaps Earth's dolphins (HHA1.1: ABF). They were the twelfth—and physically smallest—intelligent species known to humans.

My question is whether the increase in mental ability from the genengineered celery affected their placement on the sentience scale.

SWM wrote:There is no evidence suggesting that treecats who eat celery regularly are smarter than treecats who don't. Remember, most treecats have only limited access to celery.

You should also remember that the measurement you cite of treecat intelligence was taken during the period that treecats were hiding their full intelligence. If they were measured again today, they would probably come out about 1.0 on the intelligence scale, because they are no longer misleading the testers.

That actually came from the wiki. Per my original post.

wiki:
Treecats were primarily carnivores, though they required steady access to certain vegetables to stay healthy. All treecats were enthusiastic about the Terran vegetable celery, as they enjoyed the taste. Sphinxian adapted celery had been genetically modified to fix certain trace elements in the Sphinx ecosystem, and provided an unexpected benefit to treecats, who were able to absorb some trace chemicals from it (much better than the closest Sphinxian vegetable, purple thorn) and boost their mental abilities to new intensities. Unfortunately, they are unable to adequately digest Terran vegetables, including celery, and their teeth are unsuited to its fibrous qualities, so eating "too much" celery caused difficulties.

cthia wrote:Purple Thorn is also the more natural cat supplement. They can digest it, therefore my friends discussion considers it to be worth looking into modifying certain aspects of it, since it is the natural solution provided by nature.

Step one would be to domesticate Purple Thorn to remove the "rare and difficult" problem. A generation or two of selective breeding without any other genengineering should produce a stable, natural, control to begin genengineering from.

I'd still focus on extraction or synthesis -- preferably synthesis so extra-Sphinxian colonies will have a reliable supply.

cthia wrote:That actually came from the wiki. Per my original post.

wiki:
Treecats were primarily carnivores, though they required steady access to certain vegetables to stay healthy. All treecats were enthusiastic about the Terran vegetable celery, as they enjoyed the taste. Sphinxian adapted celery had been genetically modified to fix certain trace elements in the Sphinx ecosystem, and provided an unexpected benefit to treecats, who were able to absorb some trace chemicals from it (much better than the closest Sphinxian vegetable, purple thorn) and boost their mental abilities to new intensities. Unfortunately, they are unable to adequately digest Terran vegetables, including celery, and their teeth are unsuited to its fibrous qualities, so eating "too much" celery caused difficulties.

I think that statement in the wiki means "telepathic abilities" when it says "mental abilities". Whoever wrote that is using ambiguous text. As far as I can recall, there is no textev to support the idea that treecats using purple thorn or celery gain any intelligence--the text just says that it affects their telepathic abilities.

SharkHunter wrote:-snip-

I like eating fresh fruits and veggies to get my nutrients but have zero plans to ever buy a juicer or pureeing blender like some of the uber-health nuts seem to enjoy. So far neither does Nimitz, especially given that he can usually charm the good stuff off of his two leg buddies.

Charm my ass!

If you know that the cats love celery, and you had seen the performance of Nimitz on HD at Protector's Palace, you'd make it a point of making friends with him and supplying celery too.

Especially with Nimtz's sense of humor, when he regards you with a raised eyebrow, flattened ears and signs...

<What?! No celery punk!>

I have a friend with a dog the size of a Mack Truck. I take him regular T-bone Steaks.

"Here Nimitz, come get it boy!"

Fancy saying that to a cat all of the time.

"Here boy!"


****** *

Pureed fruits are also delicious, regardless of any health benefits. I have a banana based concoction with certain type apples, tangerines, seedless grapes, peaches and fruit cocktail that will be attacked by others around you like an eggo!

Really, try it for the taste. Delicious to the very last drop!

cthia wrote:

They were officially rated 0.83 on the sentience scale, even using primitive tools like axes and fishing nets and were thought to be slightly more intelligent and mentally capable than Beowulf's gremlins or perhaps Earth's dolphins (HHA1.1: ABF). They were the twelfth—and physically smallest—intelligent species known to humans.

My question is whether the increase in mental ability from the genengineered celery affected their placement on the sentience scale.

SWM wrote:There is no evidence suggesting that treecats who eat celery regularly are smarter than treecats who don't. Remember, most treecats have only limited access to celery.

You should also remember that the measurement you cite of treecat intelligence was taken during the period that treecats were hiding their full intelligence. If they were measured again today, they would probably come out about 1.0 on the intelligence scale, because they are no longer misleading the testers.

Nah! Just a .90 as these type tests are always culturally biased, as are SATs. No reason to discount 'species bias' as well.

Weird Harold wrote:

cthia wrote:Purple Thorn is also the more natural cat supplement. They can digest it, therefore my friends discussion considers it to be worth looking into modifying certain aspects of it, since it is the natural solution provided by nature.

Step one would be to domesticate Purple Thorn to remove the "rare and difficult" problem. A generation or two of selective breeding without any other genengineering should produce a stable, natural, control to begin genengineering from.

I'd still focus on extraction or synthesis -- preferably synthesis so extra-Sphinxian colonies will have a reliable supply.

I've wondered for some time that the cats haven't taken to growing their own purple thorn since they picked up agriculture from humans. Not growing their own celery, I can understand a lot more easily - I doubt it can grow on Sphinx outside greenhouses so they can ignore the seasons-on-natural-prolong, and they haven't picked up enough technology by example to build their own. (And they've only just started trade with humans, if at all.)

Maybe they have domesticated purple thorn, but I'd've thought I'd've caught such a reference by now. Maybe someone else has something on that.

Extracted purple-thorn-imin ("essence of celery"? "mindocaine"?) would be excellent for extra-Sphinxian colonies if that kind of dependence on humans is acceptable. On the one hand, they're already dependent on us to establish the colonies at all, and in plenty of cases and places will continue to be, like it or not, so they may as well colonize on the basis of close association with humans, providing mind-blind humans services they can't get without 'cats in return for services and products they can't get for themselves without two-leg thinking and skills. On the other - building into your colonies, established to preserve the species, a potential point of failure to do with maintaining good and robust relations with humans is putting your eggs in a single political basket.

I failed to include that the MDs are considering adolescent cats where celery's digestive problems might manifest itself even more severely in the younger cats. Therefore, purple thorn may be an even more recommended alternative for younger cats.

Much as my parents didn't want us drinking coffee at such tender ages. Although some of my friends preach that coffee also had an acute effect on their mental sharpness in college.

cthia wrote:

They were officially rated 0.83 on the sentience scale, even using primitive tools like axes and fishing nets and were thought to be slightly more intelligent and mentally capable than Beowulf's gremlins or perhaps Earth's dolphins (HHA1.1: ABF). They were the twelfth—and physically smallest—intelligent species known to humans.

My question is whether the increase in mental ability from the genengineered celery affected their placement on the sentience scale.

SWM wrote:There is no evidence suggesting that treecats who eat celery regularly are smarter than treecats who don't. Remember, most treecats have only limited access to celery.

You should also remember that the measurement you cite of treecat intelligence was taken during the period that treecats were hiding their full intelligence. If they were measured again today, they would probably come out about 1.0 on the intelligence scale, because they are no longer misleading the testers.

cthia wrote:Nah! Just a .90 as these type tests are always culturally biased, as are SATs. No reason to discount 'species bias' as well.

And there you go with the species bias. Who is to say that the 'cats are not well about 1.0 on the sentience scale?