Honorverse ramblings and musings

Queen Elizabeth actually admitted later on that she should have offered more support of Honor. It is one of the many signs that the characters in the Honorverse are human. They make mistakes.

But without the duel we wouldn't have had Flag in Exile!
Cheers
John

timmopussycat wrote:

cthia wrote:Honor took so much schit from Pavel. Through it all, she did what the Good Book asks us to do. 'Turn the other cheek.' Honor turned so many cheeks she was beginning to lose appendages - which literally symbolized giving and losing a piece of herself. And everyone that she should have been able to count on, thought she was able to count on, let her down. When Honor needed someone, anyone... the most ... they let her down.

. . .

But surely, her Monarch would understand. Honor had done none other than to serve her Monarch with outstanding fealty. She had given everything of herself for her Star Kingdom. And never asked for anything for herself. Ever.

. . . Hamish Alexander wished she wouldn't do it. Even forbade her to, amidst outward disappointment, which cut her deeper than Nimitz' claws ever could. The government didn't understand her. And Elizabeth. The Queen herself. Her friend. Couldn't back her.

. . . .

How could Elizabeth allow her government to collect retribution from Honor?

. . . .

Many thought she was a crazy, loose canon. But she was anything but. Everyone, and the assinine situations around her, was making her crazy. Hell, Honor was sane. It was all the shit that everyone was subjecting her to that was making her, would have long ago made anyone else, insane! Honor was in danger of losing herself. No one listened to her and truly understood, that she needed to do what a woman needed to do, for her!

Little wonder Honor didn't just walk in some public place strapped with a pulse carbine and jimmy flat blast everyone! "CAN YOU HEAR ME NOW?!?

Now, I understand why Elizabeth couldn't support Honor's actions. And, I was endeared to Elizabeth even more for that. Honor had become Elizabeth's friend. In many ways her equal. And not many others did Elizabeth respect more than she respected Honor. No one has to tell me the pain and distress that had to cause, and probably still causes, Elizabeth. But she was a Monarch, with the lives of an entire Star Kingdom on her shoulders. She bore that weight as she always had. Her decision to allow her government to 'run Honor out of town,' was the kind of decision that Honor respected in her Monarch.

But just this once, Honor needed total support, as she was about to lose the only type battle she was ill-equipped to fight. A personal, emotional one.

Please forgive my rant. Like Honor, I needed to vent. Frustration is like a sneeze. If you try to contain its buildup, it can hurt someone.

Personally, I think Elizabeth stumbled a bit here. She could have offered a measure of support to Honor without conflict with her duties as monarch.

She could have arranged a private meeting, apologized for the court martial's failure to convict Young on capital charges, affirmed Honor's right to challenge Young if she had evidence and affirmed her right to charge anyone in the Navy who ordered her not to meet Young on the field with violating the articles of war. She could even have pointed out that she, as Monarch, had received requests to urge Honor to stay her hand, yet rather than do so, she could have said to Honor something like: "But I'm not going to ask you to do that. If I did, I wouldn't be keeping one of my Navy's most brilliant captains on active service; I'd be breaking her heart and I would be losing that quality of wholehearted love for this kingdom that makes her so effective. So if a duel is necessary to ensure that my star kingdom gives you justice, then you go out there and be sure you do unto Young what you did to Summervale. And if my Navy loses a Captain, it will be because she is fighting for the justice that my kingdom was founded to provide and without which it is not worth defending."

end rant.

SWM wrote:Queen Elizabeth actually admitted later on that she should have offered more support of Honor. It is one of the many signs that the characters in the Honorverse are human. They make mistakes.

I recall her admitting to the pain as well. It really hurt Elizabeth to do that. I don't think anyone would doubt, that Elizabeth would have refused to allow any of it to happen if political concerns didn't require it.

It was all wrapped up into a complicated little political burrito with plenty of hot sauce. As I remember it. I wanted her to do more to help Honor as well. As a reader it's hard to not want to scream at Liz 'Dammit girl, you're the Queen and the Soul of Steel. Don't wus out now on Honor.'

But for that political Texas Pete.

wiki:
Treecats were primarily carnivores, though they required steady access to certain vegetables to stay healthy. All treecats were enthusiastic about the Terran vegetable celery, as they enjoyed the taste. Sphinxian adapted celery had been genetically modified to fix certain trace elements in the Sphinx ecosystem, and provided an unexpected benefit to treecats, who were able to absorb some trace chemicals from it (much better than the closest Sphinxian vegetable, purple thorn) and boost their mental abilities to new intensities. Unfortunately, they are unable to adequately digest Terran vegetables, including celery, and their teeth are unsuited to its fibrous qualities, so eating "too much" celery caused difficulties.

My European friends posed this question.

Purple Thorn is indigenous to parts of Europe. They are assuming that Sphinx introduced it to their flora, but aren't certain. Neither am I. Was it genetically modified as was the celery? If Sphinx did introduce it to their local flora but did not genetically modify it, then perhaps they should.

Puzzlement ensues when considering exactly what plant grew native to Sphinx that was consumed by the treecats before human settlers arrived?

If it indeed was some version of purple thorn that was already native to Sphinx, then perhaps it should be genetically altered and treecats tested over time for better mental performance.

Anyone know?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purple_Thorn

cthia wrote:If it indeed was some version of purple thorn that was already native to Sphinx, then perhaps it should be genetically altered and treecats tested over time for better mental performance.

I don't believe that Shinxian Purple Thorn is in any way related to Terrestrial European Purple Thorn. The Treecats were using Purple thorn berries as a dietary supplement long before the first human survey ship arrived.

Why bother genetically altering Purple Thorn -- or further altering celery, for that matter -- when it is probably possible to isolate the chemical(s) Sphinxian Celery and Sphinxian Purple Thorn have in common and extract or synthesize it in whatever concentration desired.

eta:

War of Honor
Chapter Thirteen
wrote:"That was something that puzzled every human who ever studied 'cats," Honor said. "So once they learned to sign, we asked them, of course." She shrugged. "Part of their answer was exactly what you might have expected—they love the way it tastes. Think of the most chocolate-addicted human being you've ever met, then cube her craving, and you'll start closing in on just how much they love it. But that's only part of the reason. The other is that there's a trace compound in Sphinxian celery that they need."

"In Sphinxian celery?" Emily repeated.

"They love the taste of any celery from anywhere," Honor told her. "But back when humans first came to the Manticore System, we had to make some minor adjustments in our Old Terran flora and fauna before we introduced them into their new environments. As," she added in a dust-dry tone, gesturing briefly at herself, "we've done with human beings themselves, in a few other cases. We didn't do anything really drastic in the case of Sphinx, but a few minor genetic changes were designed into most of the Old Terran food plants to prevent the fixing of elements we didn't need in our diet and to discourage some particularly persistent local parasites and the plant diseases they carry. The basic idea was to get the genegineered plants to manufacture and store a Sphinxian organic compound that's harmless to humans but serves as a natural insect repellant. It worked in all of them, but better in some than in others, and it was most effective of all in celery, of all things. The version in the descendants of the modified Old Terran plants is slightly different from that which occurs in the native flora, sort of a hybrid. But it appears to be either necessary or extremely beneficial to the maintenance of the 'cats' empathic and telepathic senses."

"But where did they get it from before we came along with our celery?" Emily demanded.

"There's a Sphinxian plant that produces the native plants' version of the same compound. They call it 'purple thorn,' and they've known about it forever. But it's scarce and hard to find, and, frankly, they say celery just tastes a whole lot better." Honor shrugged again. "And that, it turns out, is the answer to the Great Celery Theft Mystery which first brought humans and treecats together."

Weird Harold wrote:

cthia wrote:If it indeed was some version of purple thorn that was already native to Sphinx, then perhaps it should be genetically altered and treecats tested over time for better mental performance.

I don't believe that Shinxian Purple Thorn is in any way related to Terrestrial European Purple Thorn. The Treecats were using Purple thorn berries as a dietary supplement long before the first human survey ship arrived.

Why bother genetically altering Purple Thorn -- or further altering celery, for that matter -- when it is probably possible to isolate the chemical(s) Sphinxian Celery and Sphinxian Purple Thorn have in common and extract or synthesize it in whatever concentration desired.

eta:

War of Honor
Chapter Thirteen
wrote:"That was something that puzzled every human who ever studied 'cats," Honor said. "So once they learned to sign, we asked them, of course." She shrugged. "Part of their answer was exactly what you might have expected—they love the way it tastes. Think of the most chocolate-addicted human being you've ever met, then cube her craving, and you'll start closing in on just how much they love it. But that's only part of the reason. The other is that there's a trace compound in Sphinxian celery that they need."

"In Sphinxian celery?" Emily repeated.

"They love the taste of any celery from anywhere," Honor told her. "But back when humans first came to the Manticore System, we had to make some minor adjustments in our Old Terran flora and fauna before we introduced them into their new environments. As," she added in a dust-dry tone, gesturing briefly at herself, "we've done with human beings themselves, in a few other cases. We didn't do anything really drastic in the case of Sphinx, but a few minor genetic changes were designed into most of the Old Terran food plants to prevent the fixing of elements we didn't need in our diet and to discourage some particularly persistent local parasites and the plant diseases they carry. The basic idea was to get the genegineered plants to manufacture and store a Sphinxian organic compound that's harmless to humans but serves as a natural insect repellant. It worked in all of them, but better in some than in others, and it was most effective of all in celery, of all things. The version in the descendants of the modified Old Terran plants is slightly different from that which occurs in the native flora, sort of a hybrid. But it appears to be either necessary or extremely beneficial to the maintenance of the 'cats' empathic and telepathic senses."

"But where did they get it from before we came along with our celery?" Emily demanded.

"There's a Sphinxian plant that produces the native plants' version of the same compound. They call it 'purple thorn,' and they've known about it forever. But it's scarce and hard to find, and, frankly, they say celery just tastes a whole lot better." Honor shrugged again. "And that, it turns out, is the answer to the Great Celery Theft Mystery which first brought humans and treecats together."

But what I've always wondered is that if the cellulose in the celery is bad for the 'cats (because they can't digest it, and it clogs up their systems), why not produce celery shakes - puree the celery so that the trace compound is still available, but the cellulose is completely broken down, and is therefore easily flushed through the system.

fallsfromtrees wrote:But what I've always wondered is that if the cellulose in the celery is bad for the 'cats (because they can't digest it, and it clogs up their systems), why not produce celery shakes - puree the celery so that the trace compound is still available, but the cellulose is completely broken down, and is therefore easily flushed through the system.

They probably could, but I suspect that the treecats like crunching through celery. They will live with celery clogging their systems just like many humans will live with ice cream headaches, sugar highs and crashes, and health problems from eating French fries.

Weird Harold wrote:

cthia wrote:If it indeed was some version of purple thorn that was already native to Sphinx, then perhaps it should be genetically altered and treecats tested over time for better mental performance.

I don't believe that Shinxian Purple Thorn is in any way related to Terrestrial European Purple Thorn. The Treecats were using Purple thorn berries as a dietary supplement long before the first human survey ship arrived.

Why bother genetically altering Purple Thorn -- or further altering celery, for that matter -- when it is probably possible to isolate the chemical(s) Sphinxian Celery and Sphinxian Purple Thorn have in common and extract or synthesize it in whatever concentration desired.

eta:

War of Honor
Chapter Thirteen
wrote:"That was something that puzzled every human who ever studied 'cats," Honor said. "So once they learned to sign, we asked them, of course." She shrugged. "Part of their answer was exactly what you might have expected—they love the way it tastes. Think of the most chocolate-addicted human being you've ever met, then cube her craving, and you'll start closing in on just how much they love it. But that's only part of the reason. The other is that there's a trace compound in Sphinxian celery that they need."

"In Sphinxian celery?" Emily repeated.

"They love the taste of any celery from anywhere," Honor told her. "But back when humans first came to the Manticore System, we had to make some minor adjustments in our Old Terran flora and fauna before we introduced them into their new environments. As," she added in a dust-dry tone, gesturing briefly at herself, "we've done with human beings themselves, in a few other cases. We didn't do anything really drastic in the case of Sphinx, but a few minor genetic changes were designed into most of the Old Terran food plants to prevent the fixing of elements we didn't need in our diet and to discourage some particularly persistent local parasites and the plant diseases they carry. The basic idea was to get the genegineered plants to manufacture and store a Sphinxian organic compound that's harmless to humans but serves as a natural insect repellant. It worked in all of them, but better in some than in others, and it was most effective of all in celery, of all things. The version in the descendants of the modified Old Terran plants is slightly different from that which occurs in the native flora, sort of a hybrid. But it appears to be either necessary or extremely beneficial to the maintenance of the 'cats' empathic and telepathic senses."

"But where did they get it from before we came along with our celery?" Emily demanded.

"There's a Sphinxian plant that produces the native plants' version of the same compound. They call it 'purple thorn,' and they've known about it forever. But it's scarce and hard to find, and, frankly, they say celery just tastes a whole lot better." Honor shrugged again. "And that, it turns out, is the answer to the Great Celery Theft Mystery which first brought humans and treecats together."

Thanks for the response Harold. We couldn't find the reference that you posted. I knew I could count on some astute poster to provide it. Again, thanks.

Now, I can only speak for myself when I say that their discussion is way over my head. Remember, these are all MDs. Many heavily involved in R&D.

I don't believe that Shinxian Purple Thorn is in any way related to Terrestrial European Purple Thorn. The Treecats were using Purple thorn berries as a dietary supplement long before the first human survey ship arrived.

We all thought that that had to be the case. After all, cats were native to Sphinx long before human settlers.

Why bother genetically altering Purple Thorn -- or further altering celery, for that matter -- when it is probably possible to isolate the chemical(s) Sphinxian Celery and Sphinxian Purple Thorn have in common and extract or synthesize it in whatever concentration desired.

They are not so much concerned with the beneficial trace compound already isolated. Treecats have both 'empathic' and 'telepathic' channels and genengineering celery has brought about unexpected benefits to the cats mental ability. Their discussion centers around the Purple Thorn, 'because it is native to Sphinx and nature has a way of naturally taking care of its own.'

Perhaps genegineering Purple Thorn will produce other unforeseen beneficial side effects. Oftentimes, they say (and more so than not) R&D produces unforeseen compounds that are beneficial in other areas other than the intended. Many medicines and supplements are discovered mistakenly, like penicillin. They are wondering if there are other compounds that are beneficial, or would be beneficial, if genetically augmented in the more native Purple Thorn. Hidden benefits that would surface. And that the taste of Purple Thorn can also be augmented.

They caution about purees and shakes. 'Some compounds are not agreeable in certain methods of administration into the system.'

And just like some people refuse to take generic medications because of a 'quality' issue introduced in manufacturing methods which vary, so to, likewise, is another step of changing absorption characteristics.

Purple Thorn is also the more natural cat supplement. They can digest it, therefore my friends discussion considers it to be worth looking into modifying certain aspects of it, since it is the natural solution provided by nature. Taste can be augmented. One suggests a cross-bred purple thorn-celery project with all of the benefits, minus the digestive problems. They also wonder if certain compounds are naturally meant to target a cat's empathic channel and other(s) the telepathic channel. Which suggests the possibility that specific necessary compounds can still be lurking 'in the wild.'

Again, Harold, these are all medical professionals and such is their mind's playground. Clinical interest.

There is no way that I can do their discussion justice. We came in on it late. And I can't understand the medical terminology even if it were in English.

I attempted because you were so kind to supply that referenced passage.

Thanks again.

They were officially rated 0.83 on the sentience scale, even using primitive tools like axes and fishing nets and were thought to be slightly more intelligent and mentally capable than Beowulf's gremlins or perhaps Earth's dolphins (HHA1.1: ABF). They were the twelfth—and physically smallest—intelligent species known to humans.

My question is whether the increase in mental ability from the genengineered celery affected their placement on the sentience scale.

cthia wrote:

They were officially rated 0.83 on the sentience scale, even using primitive tools like axes and fishing nets and were thought to be slightly more intelligent and mentally capable than Beowulf's gremlins or perhaps Earth's dolphins (HHA1.1: ABF). They were the twelfth—and physically smallest—intelligent species known to humans.

My question is whether the increase in mental ability from the genengineered celery affected their placement on the sentience scale.

There is no evidence suggesting that treecats who eat celery regularly are smarter than treecats who don't. Remember, most treecats have only limited access to celery.

You should also remember that the measurement you cite of treecat intelligence was taken during the period that treecats were hiding their full intelligence. If they were measured again today, they would probably come out about 1.0 on the intelligence scale, because they are no longer misleading the testers.