Honorverse ramblings and musings

n7axw wrote:However, However the actual charges were the failure to obey the orders of a superior

Quibble: The Charge was "Disobeying an order from the flagship" not "disobeying a superior." The was a good bit made of the distinction because Honor was not, in fact, Young's superior.

cthia wrote:But his incompetence in OBS did start the ball rolling. But. Can we really blame just Young for OBS when every other CO before him was just as schitty a PB&J sandwich?

kzt wrote:No, it was laziness and vindictiveness. He didn't want to be at Basilisk and stuck Honor with a sucky job without the resources to do it right so he could knife her over it later.

drothgery wrote:Not that this is any defense of Young, but both CL Fearless and CA Warlock together were not sufficient resources to do the job right (note that the post-OBS picket was substantially larger than two ships, and by McQueen has Giscard attack Basilisk, there are wallers on-station). It wouldn't have changed the events of OBS much if Honor had Warlock (and that's all Young had prior to HH showing up) instead of Fearless, except that rather more of her crew would have survived the final battle against Sirius (Conglin still would have tried to fight a CA, because he's got BC-level weaponry and doesn't know how tough Star Knights are).

Not to counter my own argument, but in fact it was incompetence. If had inspected Sirius when it first arrived, he would have known that it was a Q-ship, and could have ordered it out of Manticore space. Might have been laziness, but the fact that he had certified it was why Honor couldn't do the inspection.

Hi Drothgery,

Your comment seems to me to overlook Young's incompetence. Had Young been on station when the balloon went up, he would probably had Honor out near the hyper limit somewhere just to get her out of his hair. There would have been no coordination with people on the ground so the enclaves would have been over run. Sirus would have stayed in orbit while Young went hightailing it for home... to get reinforcements, of course.

In short, the Peeps plan would have worked. As for the notion of Warlock surviving better than Fearless against Sirus, that is how it should work out. But I remind you of how Young reacted under fire at Handcock Station.

The Peeps whole plan depended on having Young oe someone just like him on station at Basilisk when they pulled the trigger.

Don

Weird Harold wrote:

n7axw wrote:However, However the actual charges were the failure to obey the orders of a superior

Quibble: The Charge was "Disobeying an order from the flagship" not "disobeying a superior." The was a good bit made of the distinction because Honor was not, in fact, Young's superior.

I would accept that as a friendly ammendment.

Don

n7axw wrote:

cthia wrote:This concern has been meandering in my mind, seeking the entropic path of least resistance.

When Pavel Young was sentenced, Dimitri had a heart attack. I am not certain why Dimitri had a heart attack, since Pavel was convicted on charges that did not carry the death penalty. OK, so he was dishonorably discharged, but why was that a reason to have a heart attack? It seems relief that Pavel wouldn't get the guillotine was a better reaction.

Another concern was why Dmitri supported Pavel's wish to join the navy in the first place, if he was so concerned about his well being. He had to know the level of incompetence in his son. And that that level of incompetence could, would, did get him killed!

And why on Earth, er Manticore, would Young want to join the navy?

Well, remember that his health was not good to start with. Then think about the humiliation of having his son drummed out of the navy for cowardice. The whole scene reeks of high level stress. Not good for a fragile heart, eh?

As for Young joining the navy, could it be that it was popa's idea in the first place? Gotta keep up the family tradition, after all...

What puzzles me is how Young and Santino made it through the Crusher...maybe some greased palms somewhere?

Don

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With Dad on the Naval Affairs Committee (likely Chair) during Janacek's first tour as 1st Lord, the CO's assigned to the Crusher would INSURE that Pavel passed the Crusher.

-- Stewart

Field of Dishonor

Paul saw his grimace and hid a smile of sympathy. He and Ramirez had taken to one another almost from the first, and acquaintance had turned quickly into friendship. The colonel was a voracious reader and a man of catholic tastes, with a dry, understated sense of humor he took great pains to hide. His guard tended to come down once he got to know someone, and he and Paul had fallen into the habit of getting together for wide-ranging conversations, liberally fueled by excellent beer. Ramirez's émigré origins gave him a different, often subtly provocative viewpoint on things native Manticorans took for granted, and Paul enjoyed their discussions immensely. It didn't hurt that the colonel was devoted to Honor, but Paul suspected they'd have become friends even if he hadn't been.

Ramirez was also just as tough as his physique suggested, yet he was simultaneously one of the gentlest men Paul had ever met . . . except where the People's Republic of Haven was concerned. No one could have called the colonel soft, but it was as if all his hostility had been distilled and directed toward a single goal: the destruction of the People's Republic and all its works. It might have been inaccurate to call his hatred for the Peeps obsessive, but not by very much.

His exec was another matter. Susan Hibson didn't share her boss's implacable vindictiveness toward Haven, but only an idiot would ever take liberties with her . . . and no one would take them twice. She was no martinet, and her people were devoted to her, but they feared her, as well. It wasn't that she didn't suffer fools gladly; she didn't suffer them at all, and God help anyone who dared to suggest there was anything, however impossible, her Marines couldn't do.

Perhaps, Paul thought, the difference between Hibson and Ramirez had something to do with their sizes. The major was thirty-five centimeters shorter than her superior, barely squeaking past the Corps' minimum height requirement, and she was built for speed, not power. Her colonel could afford his gentleness because someone built like a suit of battle armor never needed an attack-dog mentality, but Susan Hibson looked too small and delicate for a "proper" warrior. The Marines, unlike the Navy, were expected to get down in the mud and the blood, and Paul had no doubt Hibson had been forced to prove herself in her chosen profession—not simply to others, but to herself—for years.

I really like this passage, as Paul and Ramirez had found a close friend in each other.

"I'm telling you, she's a Salamander in bed too Ramy. Except for the smell of course!"

I like every description of Susan Hibson. But one thing I've never understood about the military and never had an opportunity to ask. Why is there a height limit? Perhaps, perhaps a case can be made for the need to keep vertically challenged people out in present times. But in the Honorverse, an under the mark applicant from Gryphon or Sphinx can still get the job done.

And it's interesting that Susan Hibson elected to join the Marines, with her barely hitting the height mark. Seems intuitive that people may have pushed her around a bit too much in grade school. No more of that schit!

cthia wrote:I like every description of Susan Hibson. But one thing I've never understood about the military and never had an opportunity to ask. Why is there a height limit? Perhaps, perhaps a case can be made for the need to keep vertically challenged people out in present times. But in the Honorverse, an under the mark applicant from Gryphon or Sphinx can still get the job done.

Without height limits, militaries would have to develop and produce equipment (clothing, boots, packs, etc) to fit antoher ranges of sizes -- instead of Sm, Med, Lg, XL, they'd have to produce XSm, Sm,...XL, XXL, XXXL sizes for everything.

Remember, there is also an upper limit to height and weight, so removing the lower limit would also require removing the upper limit.

cthia wrote:And it's interesting that Susan Hibson elected to join the Marines, with her barely hitting the height mark. Seems intuitive that people may have pushed her around a bit too much in grade school. No more of that schit!

Read The Hard Way Home in Worlds of Honor.

n7axw wrote:Hi Drothgery,

Your comment seems to me to overlook Young's incompetence.

I wasn't commenting about Young's willingness to do the job properly, only that even if he had stayed around and tried to his job properly, he really did not have sufficient resources to do it and that HH would not have had much of an easier time with the resources Young had prior to her arrival than with what she actually had.

But it's always kind of bothered me that Webster couldn't find a destroyer or CL with a captain junior to Honor to reinforce Basilisk with after deciding to play games to keep Young from getting back.

drothgery wrote:But it's always kind of bothered me that Webster couldn't find a destroyer or CL with a captain junior to Honor to reinforce Basilisk with after deciding to play games to keep Young from getting back.

If he could have found any ship to reinforce Basilisk, he would have weakened his opposition to those demanding her recall.

fallsfromtrees:
The true blame for the condition of Basilisk Station can be directly laid at the feet of Janacek, and unfortunately the Admiralty didn't cashier him instead of beaching him when he did get ejected from the seat of power - it might have helped a little bit in the interregnum.

cthia wrote:
But his incompetence in OBS did start the ball rolling. But. Can we really blame just Young for OBS when every other CO before him was just as schitty a PB&J sandwich?

kzt:
No, it was laziness and vindictiveness. He didn't want to be at Basilisk and stuck Honor with a sucky job without the resources to do it right so he could knife her over it later.

I didn't want to end up here, but like they say 'every where you go, there you are.' So here I am.

One of the hardest things to swallow in the Honorverse. Actually, second only to the kids dying in the Mueller School dome project.

Honor took so much schit from Pavel. Through it all, she did what the Good Book asks us to do. 'Turn the other cheek.' Honor turned so many cheeks she was beginning to lose appendages - which literally symbolized giving and losing a piece of herself. And everyone that she should have been able to count on, thought she was able to count on, let her down. When Honor needed someone, anyone... the most ... they let her down.

Hamish Alexander let her down. That hurt Honor. That hurt Honor badly. And I hurt for her. Oh the tears I shed for Honor.

But surely, her Monarch would understand. Honor had done none other than to serve her Monarch with outstanding fealty. She had given everything of herself for her Star Kingdom. And never asked for anything for herself. Ever.

Her shipmates hoped she wouldn't do it. Hoped she wouldn't challenge Young to a duel and kill him like the deserving scum he was. Hamish Alexander wished she wouldn't do it. Even forbade her to, amidst outward disappointment, which cut her deeper than Nimitz' claws ever could. The government didn't understand her. And Elizabeth. The Queen herself. Her friend. Couldn't back her.

I am so sorry Honor. And so embarrassed for everyone's actions. Here's Cthia's apology to you.

How could Elizabeth allow her government to collect retribution from Honor?

It broke Honor. She went to Grayson and almost died. The fire had died! She no longer looked to herself as a capable officer. What??? Wesley asked her if she'd help train the GSN. She couldn't believe he, the GSN, would want an old, semi-retired Admiral who'd lost her fire. That's just how she saw herself. She thought of herself as an out-of-sorts officer. Her confidence had waned. She had lost her sharp edge. THAT hurt to assimilate. Heck, Wesley Matthews couldn't believe his windfall. That he might receive the input of Admiral Honor "Salamander" Harrington because the idiots-to-be in the RMN has sent her to his waiting and appreciative arms. It hurt me that politics, something Honor didn't like, in tandem with a shattered heart, had all but broken her.

Many thought she was a crazy, loose canon. But she was anything but. Everyone, and the assinine situations around her, was making her crazy. Hell, Honor was sane. It was all the shit that everyone was subjecting her to that was making her, would have long ago made anyone else, insane! Honor was in danger of losing herself. No one listened to her and truly understood, that she needed to do what a woman needed to do, for her!

Little wonder Honor didn't just walk in some public place strapped with a pulse carbine and jimmy flat blast everyone! "CAN YOU HEAR ME NOW?!?

Now, I understand why Elizabeth couldn't support Honor's actions. And, I was endeared to Elizabeth even more for that. Honor had become Elizabeth's friend. In many ways her equal. And not many others did Elizabeth respect more than she respected Honor. No one has to tell me the pain and distress that had to cause, and probably still causes, Elizabeth. But she was a Monarch, with the lives of an entire Star Kingdom on her shoulders. She bore that weight as she always had. Her decision to allow her government to 'run Honor out of town,' was the kind of decision that Honor respected in her Monarch.

But just this once, Honor needed total support, as she was about to lose the only type battle she was ill-equipped to fight. A personal, emotional one.

Please forgive my rant. Like Honor, I needed to vent. Frustration is like a sneeze. If you try to contain its buildup, it can hurt someone.