BB(P/C) for rear area security

namelessfly wrote:Yes, such crazy talk is far too logical. Everyone knows that Shell Systems with populations measured in billions and an SL level technology base simply could not support a few SDs, especially if the RMN could provide a carefully selected, treecat vetted of trained crew that had been captured with the SL SDs along with spare parts and maintenance support from the captured fleet train.

As far as systems in the Shell, many of them already have their own SDFs, so yes, they probably could absorb the SD's and train them up fairly well. Now, the problem is knowing who to give them to. If you give them to a system, you need to be damn sure that those systems don't try to create little empires out of their neighbors after the Manty babysitters leave. That's my biggest concern, really. If I remember correctly, some of the members of the League proper have been described as having fairly oppressive regimes. You'd have to be very selective about who to trust with ships.

Having an SDF doesn't mean you have the training or infrastructure to operate an SD.

Dafmeister wrote:Having an SDF doesn't mean you have the training or infrastructure to operate an SD.

All the captured SLN SDs were captured with crew.

namelessfly wrote:Yes, such crazy talk is far to logical. Everyone knows that Shell Systems with populations measured in billions and an SL level technology base simply could not support a few SDs, especially if the RMN could provide a carefully selected, treecat vetted of trained crew that had been captured with the SL SDs along with spare parts and maintenance support from the captured fleet train.

We've been through this before. How long would it take for treecats to vet enough Solarians to man a superdreadnought? A Solarian SD has a crew of 6000. At 15 minutes per interview and 8 hour workdays, it would take 1 treecat 187.5 days to interview 6000 people. If you have 100 treecats, and you find 1 reliable Solarian out of 10, it would take 18.75 days, or almost 4 work weeks, to man 1 Solarian SD. And Positroll wants hundreds of these ships distributed around. How many treecats and how many days are you going to allow for this interview process, taking away manpower and treecatpower from many other important projects?

Uroboros wrote:

namelessfly wrote:Yes, such crazy talk is far too logical. Everyone knows that Shell Systems with populations measured in billions and an SL level technology base simply could not support a few SDs, especially if the RMN could provide a carefully selected, treecat vetted of trained crew that had been captured with the SL SDs along with spare parts and maintenance support from the captured fleet train.

As far as systems in the Shell, many of them already have their own SDFs, so yes, they probably could absorb the SD's and train them up fairly well. Now, the problem is knowing who to give them to. If you give them to a system, you need to be damn sure that those systems don't try to create little empires out of their neighbors after the Manty babysitters leave. That's my biggest concern, really. If I remember correctly, some of the members of the League proper have been described as having fairly oppressive regimes. You'd have to be very selective about who to trust with ships.

You certainly need to be careful about who you pass out the the SLN SDs too.

As insurance, you include tactical recreations of the Battle of Spindle. Explain that if they dotty to go conquering or commerce raiding, a few RMN Nikes orBC(P)s will give them an ass kicking.

Uroboros wrote:Why does this thing have LACs? LACs are wonderful for system protection, but they're awful in combat in the low numbers you've provided for them. It'd take 8 ships, a full-on squadron, to match a single CLAC.

LACs rely on overwhelming numbers in order to swamp the target with too many targets, especially when they get close. 8-12 LACs aren't useful, they're just target practice.

My understanding is that he wanted them primarily to thicken his BB(P)/(C)'s antimissile defenses.

Used defensively they wouldn't be all that awful in low numbers; since they wouldn't get close and at long range any Mantie LAC is a damn tough missile target.



Still I don't think parasite LACs are an overall effective way to spend displacement on any warship other than a dedicated carrier.

SWM wrote:We've been through this before. How long would it take for treecats to vet enough Solarians to man a superdreadnought? A Solarian SD has a crew of 6000. At 15 minutes per interview and 8 hour workdays, it would take 1 treecat 187.5 days to interview 6000 people. If you have 100 treecats, and you find 1 reliable Solarian out of 10, it would take 18.75 days, or almost 4 work weeks, to man 1 Solarian SD. And Positroll wants hundreds of these ships distributed around. How many treecats and how many days are you going to allow for this interview process, taking away manpower and treecatpower from many other important projects?

Now, mind you, I don't know if giving out the SDs is a good idea or not, but there is one thing your math didn't cover. Namely, why they would bother screening the spacers in the first place.

Given the number of SLN spacers captured, there should be hundreds or thousands of spacers from each SL world. When a world breaks off from the SL, The GA could give them their very own SD, and all of the crewmen from that world. That crew would be a mishmash of rates and ranks, but could probably form the core that they could fill out with their SDF crews.

And really, considering the fact that most people from the league consider them selves citizens of their planet first and citizens of the league a distant second, I doubt that many would do anything but their best for their world.

crewdude48 wrote:Now, mind you, I don't know if giving out the SDs is a good idea or not, but there is one thing your math didn't cover. Namely, why they would bother screening the spacers in the first place.

Given the number of SLN spacers captured, there should be hundreds or thousands of spacers from each SL world. When a world breaks off from the SL, The GA could give them their very own SD, and all of the crewmen from that world. That crew would be a mishmash of rates and ranks, but could probably form the core that they could fill out with their SDF crews.

And really, considering the fact that most people from the league consider them selves citizens of their planet first and citizens of the league a distant second, I doubt that many would do anything but their best for their world.

Battle Fleet personnel mostly come from core worlds. Frontier Fleet and the Marine Corps catches more of their personnel from the Shell or Verge.

1.2 million SLN personnel captured at 2nd Manticore alone. That's an average of 666 per (the ~1800) members of the League. Based on a lot of guesswork, the Core consists of about 700 planets which would have an average of 1714 SLN personnel each.

The accuracy of those numbers shouldn't be taken as a granted. However, 1700 personnel is barely enough to man a SLN battlecruiser. So I think it is unlikely that all but a handful of planets will have contributed enough personnel to Filareta and Crandall's fleets to be able to man SDs with their own citizens who have been taken PoWs. Assuming they survived their respective battles.

As SWM pointed out, not all of the prisoners will cooperate or are reliable. Some might even have joined the Navy to get away from one of those less savoury, more oppressive system governments and thus have little interest in working for them. "Asylum, please?"

Jonathan_S wrote:

Uroboros wrote:Why does this thing have LACs? LACs are wonderful for system protection, but they're awful in combat in the low numbers you've provided for them. It'd take 8 ships, a full-on squadron, to match a single CLAC.

LACs rely on overwhelming numbers in order to swamp the target with too many targets, especially when they get close. 8-12 LACs aren't useful, they're just target practice.

My understanding is that he wanted them primarily to thicken his BB(P)/(C)'s antimissile defenses.

Used defensively they wouldn't be all that awful in low numbers; since they wouldn't get close and at long range any Mantie LAC is a damn tough missile target.



Still I don't think parasite LACs are an overall effective way to spend displacement on any warship other than a dedicated carrier.

Carriers are fine for fleets. But what do you do at distant stations where you can't use a local space station? A lone BB/DN/SD carrying a handfull of LACs is a lot more effective than one without.
cf. what HH with her pinnaces did at Basisilisk
Sure you can bring in an arsenal ship with a LAC-pod.
But if it stays in orbit, you loose the missile defense option for the big ship prowling at the hyperlimit.

Another use for parasite LACs: minesweeper
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5217


P.S. If you want to lose less room, how about this option: an oversized boatbay as decribed above, but with room for onyl 2 LACs (or a spec ops frigate). Plus 2 docking hardpoints and 4 LACs tractored to the hull Derfflinger style:
“Yes,” Charles murmured back. “Did I hear Captain Preis mention LACs?”
“Yes, two of them,” Weiss confirmed. “They came with us from Mischa’s Star, tractored to the hull. They’ll ride escort for us, as well as help with the search.”
(Act of war, cf link above) while deploying to station.

Now you rotate the 8 LACs:
- 2 Shrikes on missions away from the BB
- 2 Katanas are patrolling closeby as instant missile defense units
- 1 Shrike and 1 Katana docked at hardpoints.
- 1 Shrike and 1 Katana docked inside ship for servicing.
If an ennemy raiding fleet arrives, the patrolling Katanas return, get tractored to the hull and the BB microjumps (for such a short trip, risks to the LAC Crew should be minimal); after the jump, the other LACs deploy. You now have 5-6 LACs (depending on where you are wrt the servicing) available for missile defense at the cost of hangar space for just 2 of them.

And this REALLY was my last post on the topic ...

Carriers are fine for fleets. But what do you do at distant stations where you can't use a local space station? A lone BB/DN/SD carrying a handfull of LACs is a lot more effective than one without.
cf. what HH with her pinnaces did at Basisilisk
Sure you can bring in an arsenal ship with a LAC-pod.
But if it stays in orbit, you loose the missile defense option for the big ship prowling at the hyperlimit.

Well, for one, you would never have a waller sitting in the middle of nowhere completely and utterly alone. The whole point of a waller is to operate as part of the wall, which means multiple wallers to form said wall, plus the many escorts to expand the sensor and missile defense envelopes. A single capital ship just chilling by its lonesome isn't anything except an invitation to get destroyed in detail. Hence the use of either entire squadrons/task groups/task forces to defend a system if it's worth defending against serious attack, or battlecruisers and below if its not. Half assing it with just one capital ship isn't a much of a defense at all.

Tractoring LACs to the hull has always been an ad hoc measure. One cannot expect to operate that many LACs by essentially hot bunking them; they're going to run into maintenance issues relatively quickly. You would not do this as a matter of routine. And that doesn't take into account the need to clear for action quickly, should the situation warrant it.