Honorverse ramblings and musings

cthia wrote:But. Even with the proper Torch and Grayson government there. That still leaves Manticore and Haven. And their governments need to vote on it via a legal process don't they?

fallsfromtrees wrote:They already have. The treaty between Haven and Manticore has already been ratified by both Parliaments.

cthia wrote:Yes. They are both legal allies. But neither Parliament has given approval to admit another member. And I wouldn't think that either could legally admit Torch on their lone authority. What am I missing?

Both Haven and Manticore have a special relationship with Torch. I would not be surprised to find that it is at the level of treaties guaranteeing the security of Torch, which means that with the alliance between Haven and Manticore now a fact, Torch is easily added if it wishes to be since the treaties are already in place.

--snipping--

cthia wrote:Also, we are all assuming, maybe in error, that Torch, Queen Berry, would want to be part of the GA.

That is precisely my thinking. Torch has nothing to gain and everything to lose by being a direct member of the GA.

Anton Zilwicki thinks everything through, and as a father I'd tell Berry to keep Torch on the sidelines of the "big show", and watch all the other heads nod in agreement. Berry, Palane, and Jeremy's job is to keep their planet safe for the foreseeable future, and target Manpower depots, etc. when possible. That is ALL.

That said, Zilwicki would tell Ruth -- "let the smart people who advise your aunt and Ginny's boss keep you in the loop". The rest of us will do our best to keep the wolves out of your neighborhood.

stewart wrote:

cthia wrote:What happens if a treecat commits a felony?

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I believe this was addressed in "A Beautiful Friendship" -- IIRC, Climbs Quickly had once been involved in a "posse" which had to track down a Treecat who had done something BAD (undisclosed by MWW). Outcome also undisclosed. Apparently it DOES happen, but rarely. Having elders taste your Mind Glow from kittenhood can be an aid in rearing kittens. Knowing your expressed thoughts are known is likely one of the side-effects (and causes) of the treecat society stability.

-- Stewart

IIRC on the story when CQ was a kitten a rouge 'cat from a neighboring clan(High Crag) when it tried to steal a mothers kittens and had seriously injured a clan scout it was also killing game for the shear pleasure of it not for food

Vince wrote:

SWM wrote:What meeting were all those people at? I can't find it. In fact, Du Havel is not mentioned in ART at all.

It's during the main meeting with Manticore, Grayson, Haven, Beowulf, and Anton Zilwicki and Victor Cachat discussing the need for to go back and see what other information the dynamic duo can dig up on the Mesan Alignment on the planet of Mesa (well Anton and Victor were discussing the need--practically everyone else was discussing their sanity level), when the government of Torch shows up unannounced:

Ah, that's why I didn't find it. They mention Queen Berry in ART, but don't mention the rest of them. I didn't think to check CoG.

cthia wrote:

fallsfromtrees wrote:They already have. The treaty between Haven and Manticore has already been ratified by both Parliaments.

Yes. They are both legal allies. But neither Parliament has given approval to admit another member. And I wouldn't think that either could legally admit Torch on their lone authority. What am I missing?

Also, we are all assuming, maybe in error, that Torch, Queen Berry, would want to be part of the GA.


.

No, we are assuming that they would not be allowed into this planning meeting of the Grand Alliance unless they were actually members of said Alliance. I think it's a pretty good assumption. David doesn't always mention the legal background stuff that goes on to set up these things. He only barely mentioned the vote on the treaty between Haven and Manticore. I think it is safe to say that Torch is a member of the Grand Alliance, because they were attending this strategy meeting.

We didn't hear of a vote to let Grayson or Beowulf in as members of the Grand Alliance, either, but we all know they are because they attended the meeting. What's the problem with believing the same thing about Torch?

--snipping--

SWM wrote:What's the problem with believing the same thing about Torch?

My textev doubting that Torch is or wants to be a fall part of the GA is the meeting in where the other major leaders get "treecatted", Torch isn't mentioned even in passing:

A Rising Thunder, Chapter 19 wrote:Empress Elizabeth, President Pritchart, Benjamin Mayhew, Michael Mayhew, Prime Minister Grantville, Foreign Minister Langtry, and Secretary of Commerce Nesbitt sat ranged around the head of the enormous conference table. (Nesbitt was substituting—not without some obvious reservations—for Leslie Montreau, who’d been sent home with the daunting task of presenting Elizabeth’s and Pritchart’s draft treaties to the Havenite Senate.) Stretched along one of the table’s long sides were Honor herself, Hamish, High Admiral Judah Yanakov, Sir Thomas Caparelli, Admiral Pat Givens, and Admiral Sonja Hemphill. Stretched along the other were Thomas Theisman, Admiral Lester Tourville, Kevin Usher, Vice Admiral Linda Trenis, and Rear Admiral Victor Lewis. And at the end of the table, facing Elizabeth, Benjamin, and Pritchart, were First Director at Large Fedosei Demianovich Mikulin and Third Director at Large Jacques Benton-Ramirez y Chou.

Keep in mind, the existence of many of the representatives of the Torch government in Manticoran space started as a surprise visit based on Berry doing her level best to keep Thandi from thwacking Victor Cachat too terribly hard.

cthia wrote:

fallsfromtrees wrote:They already have. The treaty between Haven and Manticore has already been ratified by both Parliaments.

Yes. They are both legal allies. But neither Parliament has given approval to admit another member. And I wouldn't think that either could legally admit Torch on their lone authority. What am I missing?

Also, we are all assuming, maybe in error, that Torch, Queen Berry, would want to be part of the GA.


.

SWM wrote:No, we are assuming that they would not be allowed into this planning meeting of the Grand Alliance unless they were actually members of said Alliance. I think it's a pretty good assumption. David doesn't always mention the legal background stuff that goes on to set up these things. He only barely mentioned the vote on the treaty between Haven and Manticore. I think it is safe to say that Torch is a member of the Grand Alliance, because they were attending this strategy meeting.

We didn't hear of a vote to let Grayson or Beowulf in as members of the Grand Alliance, either, but we all know they are because they attended the meeting. What's the problem with believing the same thing about Torch?

I hope that Torch is a member of the Grand Alliance, SWM. Beowulf too. But absent textev, I just don't think they are. In the case of Grayson, your argument isn't fair. Grayson was part of Manticore, rather the Star Empire, before the GA. In fact, iirc, Grayson was part of the decision process to accept Haven. Elizabeth didn't just act on her own authority. The Star Empire, Manticore and Grayson, was a package deal. Literally came with the territory.

I'm assuming, that Beowulf has always been Manticore's mistress on the side, their pet peev, and they're informally included. Now that I think of it, I'll tend to place Torch in the same bucket, pet peeves of both Manticore and Haven.

Everything doesn't have to be written in stone until it becomes a problem. Then it should have been. Like ... prenups. And since Beowulf and Torch are mistresses of sorts, perhaps it should be made formal.

SWM wrote:No, we are assuming that they would not be allowed into this planning meeting of the Grand Alliance unless they were actually members of said Alliance. I think it's a pretty good assumption. David doesn't always mention the legal background stuff that goes on to set up these things. He only barely mentioned the vote on the treaty between Haven and Manticore. I think it is safe to say that Torch is a member of the Grand Alliance, because they were attending this strategy meeting.

We didn't hear of a vote to let Grayson or Beowulf in as members of the Grand Alliance, either, but we all know they are because they attended the meeting. What's the problem with believing the same thing about Torch?

cthia wrote:I hope that Torch is a member of the Grand Alliance, SWM. Beowulf too. But absent textev, I just don't think they are. In the case of Grayson, your argument isn't fair. Grayson was part of Manticore, rather the Star Empire, before the GA. In fact, iirc, Grayson was part of the decision process to accept Haven. Elizabeth didn't just act on her own authority. The Star Empire, Manticore and Grayson, was a package deal. Literally came with the territory.

I'm assuming, that Beowulf has always been Manticore's mistress on the side, their pet peev, and they're informally included. Now that I think of it, I'll tend to place Torch in the same bucket, pet peeves of both Manticore and Haven.

Everything doesn't have to be written in stone until it becomes a problem. Then it should have been. Like ... prenups. And since Beowulf and Torch are mistresses of sorts, perhaps it should be made formal.

I tend to agree with cthia here, Torch shares a lot of common interests with the GA, especailly as far as Mesa and the MAlignment are concerned, but a part of a formal alliance opposing the SL? I just can't see that.

Besides, Cauldron of Ghosts seems to point that Torch is going to strive for much closer relations with their nearer neighbors (Maya Sector and Erewhon), while obtaining as much support as they can from Haven (who is also getting more deeply involved in the Erewhon/maya region, per CoG) and Manticore.

And remember, Torch is still relatively unsettled and currently has a 'fleet' of 12 frigates. Except for family ties, there isn't much it can do for Grand Fleet.

So I think Torch stays' "neutral" in this and devotes its major efforts to (1) hunting down slaver ships and bases and (2) joining in the occupation of Mesa (which, after all, they are formally at war at, which none of the rest of the GA is). But in regards to the GA/SL conflict, they'll be staying out.

As for the MAlignment.....

I think that what's creating the confusion here is that formality is still in its infancy on Torch and they aren't the best at it yet. That will change as they gain institutional experience. Pity...

Don

Besides, like all mothers teach their daughters, why buy the farm when you can get the milk for free.

Torch and Beowulf only has to send out a Case Zulu to have the GA come loaded for bear.