Honorverse favorite one-liners

KNick wrote:Let us look at some numbers here cthia. Filareta and his fleet had approximately 57,000 missiles in his pods. He had 400+ SDs with screen for let's call it 20,000 more missiles of all sizes. So his initial salvo was in the neighborhood of 77,000 missiles. Granted they were staggered and basically blind fired for the most part. He killed 2,000 sailors. That means that (allowing for a crew of 10) he destroyed 200 LACs. That means that he fired 385 missiles for each LAC destroyed. Or, to put it another way, he killed 1 Manticoran spacer for every 39 missiles he fired. In return he lost 1.5 million dead and another million wounded and captured, along with the lose of all his ships.

The GA's casualty rate was .08% that of all SLN losses (KIA, WIA, and POW). Not eight percent, not eight tenths of a percent, but eight hundredths of a percent.Even if you drop the Solly POWs, so that you're looking only at dead and wounded, it climbs only to a whopping 0.1%. (I haven't done a headcount on how many Allied personnel were aboard all of Grand Fleet's warships, but especially in light of the still-large crews on the Havenite ships, I would be astounded if there weren't at least 3-4,000,000 of them along as well. In which case Honor's loss rate is no more --- max --- than .06% of the personnel present.)

That's a really low loss rate, I'd say. In fact, a .01% fatality rate happens to be lower than the percentage of Americans killed in fatal automobile accidents every year. And while it's no consolation to the dead or to those who loved them, it was a very reasonable price for the GA to pay in return for the potential of forcing a Solarian surrender without anyone getting killed.

crewdude48 wrote:Considering the number of spacers out at that point in space, even with the 2000 deaths, they were probably safer there than driving down the streets of Landing.

Besides, they were trying to get him to surrender with out any fight what so ever. HE had to know that his ships were in missile range, and nobody in the SLN believes the stupid ranges that those crazy neobarbs are claiming. They were prepared for him to open fire. The LACs were in missile defense positions, and they had planned actions for in case he did.

There were only two things they could have done to assure that no GA spacer died. They could either surrender, or they could have blown the entire fleet out of space with out demanding surrender. Neither of those were an actual option. If you want to demand surrender, you have to be in a believable position to do the demanding. Sitting in orbit around Manticore would have allowed them to attack the SLN fleet, but NOBODY in the fleet would have believed that.

On a side note, did they know that the fleet had Catafract missiles? The RMN knew that the missiles existed, but had only ever seen them on the other side of human space. If that was the case, they may have been out of what they thought was missile range, and most of those 2000 losses were because of the sprint drive.

Yes, the RMN's objective was to receive Filareta's surrender. And it was a noble objective too. No single officer sitting at the roundtable wanted a butcher's bill as high as 1.2 million dead Solarians.

However, at the risk of turning this into a philosophical discussion I posit, the needs of the many (the arrogant Solly bastards) does not outweigh the needs of the few (or the one RMN spacer that may die)

If such an ambitious altruistic goal precludes your responsibility to every one of your own spacers then said tactics should be revisited, IMHO, especially when your navy has the unquestioned ability to prevent a single personal death. In the spirit of no man left behind.

Besides, every one has been responding to my pining for an SLN all-in response, stating that ART represents that all-in response.

Well if Operation Raging Justice was their all-in response, then we should have met their all-in response with our own and left the missile system on the table. Isn't this the quintessential situation it was designed for?

War isn't like golf...which allows a handicap!

I am also aware that it can be argued that the RMN aspired to save more lives in the long run. To that I would say, a life in the hand is worth more than possibles in the bush! IMHO

What options did they have? Well for one, the RMN taking the missile system off the table that Honor used at the final Battle of Manticore, in my opinion was a mistake.

As soon as Filareta would have gotten himself right where Eighth Fleet wanted him, Honor could have fired on him with the same missile system that forced Tourville to surrender. And if Filareta would have shouted his arrogance after that, nothing would have effected his surrender.

And he could have died without a single GA spacer or LAC dying.

And there was a passage that indicated the GA knew it was probably in their outer missile range, and could have chosen to do what Henke did regarding Byng...assumed they were operating with the longer-ranger Technodyne supplied missiles, and acted accordingly.
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Amaroq wrote:

cthia wrote:
This is the particular reference that somehow managed to escape me. It is specific. The other references I always assumed regarded his affinity for Mesan's genetic sex slaves.

That is sick in itself mind you, because IMHO it amounts to rape. (IMHO, its not like they had a choice)

Regarding his affinity for kids...laser heads were too decent a demise for him.

And Amaroq, thanks for the research!

No problem, I like looking back through the books for interesting snippets. Maybe I'm weird that way.

No not weird. Efficient, in a nice tac-witch sort of way!

kzt wrote:To quote Mike Tyson: "Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face".

Or bitten on the ear, by Tyson...Holyfield!

For one thing, the missiles were never "off the table". She used them to ensure Fliareta's destruction.

A second point is that even before Filareta crossed the hyper-limit, he was in his missile range of Honor. Those missiles would have been launched no matter what she did. In fact, he was in range almost from the time he exited hyper-space. He did not have to cross the hyper-limit to fire on her.

The third point to consider is the fact that the tactical objective was to capture or destroy all of Filareta's ships. To ensure that none of them got away. To hand the SLN a defeat they could not talk their way out of.

Point number four is the strategic objective. That was to ensure that all of Filareta's ships were killed or captured so that they would not have to be faced at a later date.

Keep in mind that neither objective could be met until Filareta crossed the hyper-limit and the Havenite fleet could be brought in behind them. Up until the time he crossed the hyper-limit, he could have simply fired his missiles and hypered out, to come back again later and smarter.

Point number 5. It worked. Filareta was going to surrender right up until the bomb went off. Only Filareta's death prevented a bloodless battle.

On a final note, Honor was trying for the most devastating blow to Solarian morale that she could come up with. If she had succeeded in forcing Filareta to surrender without a shot being fired, she would have demonstrated the SLN's acknowledgement of the SEM's superiority.

KNick wrote:For one thing, the missiles were never "off the table". She used them to ensure Fliareta's destruction.

A second point is that even before Filareta crossed the hyper-limit, he was in his missile range of Honor. Those missiles would have been launched no matter what she did. In fact, he was in range almost from the time he exited hyper-space. He did not have to cross the hyper-limit to fire on her.

The third point to consider is the fact that the tactical objective was to capture or destroy all of Filareta's ships. To ensure that none of them got away. To hand the SLN a defeat they could not talk their way out of.

Point number four is the strategic objective. That was to ensure that all of Filareta's ships were killed or captured so that they would not have to be faced at a later date.

Keep in mind that neither objective could be met until Filareta crossed the hyper-limit and the Havenite fleet could be brought in behind them. Up until the time he crossed the hyper-limit, he could have simply fired his missiles and hypered out, to come back again later and smarter.

Point number 5. It worked. Filareta was going to surrender right up until the bomb went off. Only Filareta's death prevented a bloodless battle.

On a final note, Honor was trying for the most devastating blow to Solarian morale that she could come up with. If she had succeeded in forcing Filareta to surrender without a shot being fired, she would have demonstrated the SLN's acknowledgement of the SEM's superiority.

The missile system was taken off the table. It was part of Pritchart's original offer in MOH. And since ART indicated no diferent I assumed it remained the status quo. The relevent passage...

“I understand your missile production facilities have been taken off-line,” Pritchart said. “Tom here tells me you've undoubtedly got enough of those ungodly super missiles in your magazines to thoroughly kick the ass of this Filareta if he really insists on following his orders. But that's going to cut into your reserves, and given that the Alignment managed to rip the hell out of your home system, I think it would be a good idea for you to conserve as much ammunition as you can in hopes we'll find someone a bit better suited to playing the role of target.”

And I saw no need for using up weapons that were in short supply when the SLN was already in their standard missile range.

And again I am aware of the strategic and tactical objectives. I just fail to see why those objectives could not have been met in the same manner that Honor forced the surrender of so many of Tourville's ships.

They had the enemy's playbook and knew his probable approach vector.

Why couldn't Honor have placed her ships out of probable SLN reach?

Same Manticore system. Same channel. Same available weapons.

Only the arsehole changed!
IMHO!

Given a faster than light technology and weapons scaled similar to those of the Age of Sail, some of the battles described in the Honor Harrington series resemble real-life sea battles in our historical record. For instance, the long stern chase described in On Basilisk Station has some parallels with the actions of HMS Kent at the Battle of the Falklands during World War I. Similarly, the deathride by Sarnow's battlecruisers in The Short Victorious War bears a resemblance to similar maneuvers by Admiral von Hipper during the Battle of Jutland. The final actions in The Honor of the Queen contain elements from the battles of the Barents Sea and North Cape during World War II, as well as the Battle of the River Plate. The final actions in Echoes of Honor are a recreation of the actions of Horatio Nelson at the Battle of Trafalgar except for the stealth in which it was conducted. Further, Weber's choice of interstellar technology forces trade to pursue established trade routes, and creates strategic shipping nexus that are similar to key strategic ports of the days of the Colonial Era when the sailing ship of the line was king of the sea, and Captains, Admirals and Fleets had to operate out of touch with the home government for months, even years at a time. -wiki

Perhaps subconsciously, I expected this current Battle Of Manticore to take a page out of The Persian Gulf War and Stormin' Norman's expressed adamance of not placing his ground troops in the eye of the storm by fighting a traditional Iraqi expected ground battle when he possessed such decisive air superiority, which he used ruthlessly.

If I offended anyone's sensibilities, please forgive me.
It truly was not my intention.

I am sure I am missing lots. You all know it wouldn't be my first time. It just...bothered me is all.

Such are the realities of war I suppose.
And civilians like me, the truth...I can't handle the truth!

I'm going to attempt to get back on topic before Duckk makes his God-like presence felt.

Theisman.

I understand that realizing you gave the order to kill that many people has to make you sick to your stomach. It makes me want to puke, and I didn’t have to give it. But the only ones responsible for what happened to Filareta and the people under his command are whoever arranged to get him sent here and—assuming there’s any basis to all this speculation in the first place—whoever got to his tac officer. Not you; not me—them!”

_but it is more than a desperate attempt to get back on topic, honest.

Two things have changed since the 1st BoM.

First, Sphinx is now out of the protection of the RZ from the wormhole. It is now close enough to the hyper-limit that it is in single drive missile range for an attacker. Honor must be in a position to protect the planet. Otherwise all Filareta has to do is launch against the planetary orbitals that remain and the new construction that is going on.

The other thing that is different is that Honor is now in the same position that Tourville was in. She is inside the hyper-limit with Filareta outside it. Simply put, she has to wait for him to come to her. It is only after he crosses the limit and Tourville drops in behind him that Honor has any hope of forcing his surrender. If she fires on him before he crosses the limit, he simply fires back and realizing he can't survive her fire, he hypers out. She sustains about the same number of casualties, he loses nothing except some pods and his entire fleet is available to fight another day. It is only after he crosses the limit that the destruction of any of his units is ensured.

KNick wrote:Two things have changed since the 1st BoM.

First, Sphinx is now out of the protection of the RZ from the wormhole. It is now close enough to the hyper-limit that it is in single drive missile range for an attacker. Honor must be in a position to protect the planet. Otherwise all Filareta has to do is launch against the planetary orbitals that remain and the new construction that is going on.

The other thing that is different is that Honor is now in the same position that Tourville was in. She is inside the hyper-limit with Filareta outside it. Simply put, she has to wait for him to come to her. It is only after he crosses the limit and Tourville drops in behind him that Honor has any hope of forcing his surrender. If she fires on him before he crosses the limit, he simply fires back and realizing he can't survive her fire, he hypers out. She sustains about the same number of casualties, he loses nothing except some pods and his entire fleet is available to fight another day. It is only after he crosses the limit that the destruction of any of his units is ensured.

There it is!
Thanks KNick. The only reason I could accept matters, would be if that was the case.
That's the only other thing I could surmise would be different.
I expected RFC to give it to me.

But I guess he saw me as Honor initially saw the Graysons.
'Well I could explain our systems to you but you might not understand.'
Truth be told, I don't understand the LZ zone.