Honorverse ramblings and musings

phillies wrote:Space Faring Species...There is a McDevitt novel (he's not as good as the illustrious host, but he is quite good) in which this idea is a major plot element.

Which book, please? I thought I had read all of McDevitt's novels, but I don't recall that storyline off-hand.

I've been trying to find concrete information regarding wedge on wedge fratricide. What is the difference in opposing wedge strength, if a difference exists, that will not result in a mutual destruction?

I'm asking because when LACs were first introduced, they reminded me of the Japanese Kamikazes. Is it possible for very maneuverable LACs to intentionally fly their wedge into an SD wedge in a kamikaze like fashion? Perhaps two LACs in tandem, in circumstances of extreme desperation, and assuming the SD will let them get that close. There were incidences where Manty LACs totally swamped Peep formations, but damage was minimal to an SD. (Katanas notwithstanding.) It seems that a, wedge on wedge, suicide attack would accomplish what missiles cannot, if the idea is sound.


Kamikaze

Transcend life and death. When you eliminate all thoughts about life and death, you will be able to totally disregard your earthly life. This will also enable you to concentrate your attention on eradicating the enemy with unwavering determination, meanwhile reinforcing your excellence in flight skills.
- A paragraph from the Kamikaze pilot's manual, located in their cockpits.

In the year 1281, Japan was under attack by a Mongol invasion — led by the powerful Kublai Khan. However, just as it appeared that the invading Mongols were about to overwhelm the Japanese, a catastrophic typhoon swept through the land, eliminating the entire Mongol army. From that point on, the typhoon that saved Japan became known as the Kamikaze or Divine Wind.

Background

After the defeat at the Battle of Midway, and the fall of Saipanin July 1944, the Japanese revived the name Kamikaze and ascribed it to the suicide missions of their air force.

Japanese Vice Admiral Takashiro Ohnishi, commander of the First Air Fleet in the Philippines, had noted that the most effective way to inflict damage upon Allied warships was to crash planes into them. He noted that one accidental crash could do more damage than 10 planes firing machine guns. It was decided then that pilots would purposely crash their planes — with half a ton of explosives — into American warships.

Kamikaze pilot

The Kamikaze pilot
Generally, Kamikaze pilots were university students motivated by obligation, and loyalty to family and country. A typical pilot was a science student in his twenties. He prepared for his fiery destiny by writing farewell letters and poems to loved ones, receiving a "thousand-stitch sash*," and by holding a ceremony — a drink of water that gave him a "spiritual lifting" before wedging himself between 550-pound bombs.

It was adamantly believed that, because they were fighting for their Emperor God, the Kamikaze would bring them deliverance at the darkest hour, just as it had in the 13th century. In fact, the call for Kamikaze pilots drew a staggering response. Three times as many applied for suicide flights as the number of planes available. Experienced pilots were turned down. They were needed to train the younger men how to fly to their deaths.

The fact that they were to go on suicide missions was accepted without question by the Japanese pilots. All inductees into the Japanese armed forces were indoctrinated with the following five-point oath:

•A soldier must make loyalty his obligation.

•A soldier must make propriety his way of life.

•A soldier must highly esteem military valor.

•A soldier must have a high regard for righteousness.

•A soldier must live a simple life.

Kamikaze approaching USS Missouri

The Mitsubishi A6M2

Nicknamed the "Zero," the Mitsubishi A6M2 was the Kamikaze pilot's personal "flying coffin." It had a maximum speed of 332 mph and a range of 1,930 miles. The A6M2 was 29 feet nine inches long, with a wingspan of about 39 feet. The aircraft was armed with two machine guns and could carry 264 pounds of bombs; however, the Japanese modified its structure to accommodate a heavier arsenal. The Zero was the main strike aircraft used at Pearl Harbor — dominating the skies during the early stages of World War II. A large number were shot down during the Battle of Midway, and it eventually became outperformed by the latest allied aircraft, such as the P-51 Mustang.

First attacks

Beginning with the Pearl Harbor Attack, Japanese suicide bombers sporadically crashed their planes into the enemy as a spur-of-the-moment decision.

On October 21, 1944, the flagship of the Royal Australian Navy, the heavy cruiser HMAS Australia, was hit by a Japanese plane carrying a 441-pound bomb, off Leyte Island. Although the bomb did not explode, the damage was devastating — killing at least 30 crew members.

USS St. Lo exploding

On October 25, the Australia was hit again and was forced to retire to the New Hebrides for repairs. That same day, five Zeros attacked a U.S. escort carrier, the USS St. Lo off the Philippines coast, although only one Kamikaze actually hit the ship. Its bomb caused massive fires that resulted in the ship's bomb magazine exploding, sinking the carrier. Japanese pilots also hit and damaged several other Allied ships.

The initial successes of those attacks sparked an immediate expansion of the program. During the next few months, more than 2,000 planes staged such attacks. Those included new types of suicide attacks and explosives, including purpose-built Yokosuka MXY7 Ohka rocket-bombs, small boats packed with explosives, and manned torpedoes (equipped with a 3000-pound warhead) called the Kaiten.

Iwo Jima and Okinawa

On February 19th, 1945, the USS Enterprise and other carriers took up stations off Iwo Jima, attacking nearby enemy airfields, and providing close air support for the Marines that landed. By the time the marines unfurled the U.S. flag on Iwo Jima's summit, Kamikaze attacks had sunk the escort flattop Bismarck Sea CVE-95, knocked the USS Saratoga CV 3 out of the war for good, and temporarily halted the Enterprise — all while regularly harassing amphibious forces at the beachhead.

The day of April 6th, 1945, proved to be most telling for the use of Kamikazes in the battle for Okinawa. More than 350 aircraft at a time dove at the Allied fleet. Just the anticipation of Kamikaze attacks drove some American sailors literally insane. The destroyer Laffey was attacked by 20 aircraft at once. Her gunners stopped nine Kamikazes, but six others rammed into the ship. As on the similarly damaged USS Franklin, ineffable courage, and intensive training in firefighting, kept the Laffey afloat.

USS Bunker Hill after being hit

On the 7th of April, Kamikazes were still attacking in great numbers off the coast of Okinawa, severely damaging the carrier Hancock. By April 16th, suicide bombers desperately, but effectively damaged the USS Enterprise yet again, as well as the flattop USS Intrepid, and numerous picket destroyers were sunk or damaged. Admiral Marc A. Mitscher led Task Force 58 from his flagship, the carrier Bunker Hill CV-17. On May 11th, 1945, the flagship was hit by a Kamikaze pilot that killed 350 of his men.

The final Japanese defense of Okinawa was hard fought. For the Americans, victory brought a heavy price. The capture of Okinawa cost the Americans 49,000 in casualties, of whom 12,520 died. More than 110,000 Japanese were killed on the island. When it was clear that he had been defeated, General Mitsuru Ushijima committed ritual suicide (hara-kiri).

War's end

From October 25, 1944, to January 25, 1945, Kamikazes managed to sink two escort carriers and three destroyers. They also damaged 23 carriers, five battleships, nine cruisers, 23 destroyers and 27 other ships. American casualties amounted to 738 killed and another 1,300 wounded as the result of those attacks.

Several thousand Kamikaze planes had been set aside for an invasion of the Japanese mainland that never happened. Kamikaze pilots were one of the reasons President Harry S. Truman decided to drop the atomic bombs.

On the eve of the Japanese surrender, Takijiro Onishi ended his own life, leaving a note of apology to his dead pilots — their sacrifice had been in vain.


*A cloth belt into which 1,000 women had sewn one stitch as a symbolic union with a Kamikaze pilot.


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http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/entry/Harrington/178/1

Specifically

    There is no way to "bomb pump" (or the equivalent) the impeller wedge of a missile, or even a smaller starship, to allow it to overpower the wedge of a larger vessel. Ain't gonna happen. You could build a starship with over-powered nodes, which is basically what the Peeps did with the Mars-class, but even so, you would not be able to shoehorn anything capable of taking out, say, a dreadnought's wedge into anything smaller than a battleship-sized "missile." 

Edit to add. Also, http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/entry/Harrington/133/1

crewdude48 wrote:http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/entry/Harrington/178/1

Specifically

    There is no way to "bomb pump" (or the equivalent) the impeller wedge of a missile, or even a smaller starship, to allow it to overpower the wedge of a larger vessel. Ain't gonna happen. You could build a starship with over-powered nodes, which is basically what the Peeps did with the Mars-class, but even so, you would not be able to shoehorn anything capable of taking out, say, a dreadnought's wedge into anything smaller than a battleship-sized "missile." 

Edit to add. Also, http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/entry/Harrington/133/1

Ok. I accept that it ain't gonna happen.

But for the record, and in all due respect to everyone concerned, all of the proposals that I read involves a proposal to utilize some variation on a missile.

I am not advocating that. I was considering using the LAC itself as the weapon. Or more succinctly, the wedge of the LAC.

The Wizard of the Pearls did add that there's no way to "bomb pump" a LACs wedge either, and why ...

When the impeller wedges of two impeller-drive vessels come into contact, wedge interference causes the nodes of the weaker vessel (or of both vessels, if the wedges are quite close together in the size and strength) to vaporize. The portion of the hull in which the nodes are mounted goes with it, and the capacitor rings associated with the nodes arc over and release all of their stored energy in the process.

The bold is what I consider the key. The author said "in size and strength." However, in field effect equations, size can be substituted by force.

If a LACs wedge strength greatly exceeds or equals an SD's wedge strength just long enough to ensure mutual destruction.

Remember, this is a kamikaze mission. It doesn't matter if running a reactor on full overload will flood containment areas and give the crew a lethal dousing of radiation. It doesn't matter that the crew will die from it. It's a suicide mission. If routing the power budget from an overloaded reactor could drive wedge strength up long enough to destroy a larger ship, then kamikaze is born. Perhaps a more robust breaker system would be needed. A LAC would only have to hold that wedge strength for seconds.

Of course, this assumes the notion of bigger nodes is only needed to sustain an SD's wedge strength safely and reliably, and not to produce it.

But anyways, I understand the author wants to abort this catastrophe of a subject without a wooden stake and holy water.

Thanks for links crewdude.

So, bomb-pumping the wedge then. Note the bit about being unable to put a wedge capable of being able to take down a DN wedge with anything less than a BB sized missile. If the requirement is X total power in the wedge, and the formula is force/meter (gigajoules/m2 say) times area, the lac has a smaller area, and doesnt have the ability to mount a drive capable of substituting enough energy to overcome the larger drive output and area of the DN.

cthia wrote:Ok. I accept that it ain't gonna happen.

But for the record, and in all due respect to everyone concerned, all of the proposals that I read involves a proposal to utilize some variation on a missile.

I am not advocating that. I was considering using the LAC itself as the weapon. Or more succinctly, the wedge of the LAC.

The Wizard of the Pearls did add that there's no way to "bomb pump" a LACs wedge either, and why ...

When the impeller wedges of two impeller-drive vessels come into contact, wedge interference causes the nodes of the weaker vessel (or of both vessels, if the wedges are quite close together in the size and strength) to vaporize. The portion of the hull in which the nodes are mounted goes with it, and the capacitor rings associated with the nodes arc over and release all of their stored energy in the process.

The bold is what I consider the key. The author said "in size and strength." However, in field effect equations, size can be substituted by force.

If a LACs wedge strength greatly exceeds or equals an SD's wedge strength just long enough to ensure mutual destruction.

Remember, this is a kamikaze mission. It doesn't matter if running a reactor on full overload will flood containment areas and give the crew a lethal dousing of radiation. It doesn't matter that the crew will die from it. It's a suicide mission. If routing the power budget from an overloaded reactor could drive wedge strength up long enough to destroy a larger ship, then kamikaze is born. Perhaps a more robust breaker system would be needed. A LAC would only have to hold that wedge strength for seconds.

Of course, this assumes the notion of bigger nodes is only needed to sustain an SD's wedge strength safely and reliably, and not to produce it.

But anyways, I understand the author wants to abort this catastrophe of a subject without a wooden stake and holy water.

Thanks for links crewdude.

Spacekiwi wrote:So, bomb-pumping the wedge then. Note the bit about being unable to put a wedge capable of being able to take down a DN wedge with anything less than a BB sized missile. If the requirement is X total power in the wedge, and the formula is force/meter (gigajoules/m2 say) times area, the lac has a smaller area, and doesnt have the ability to mount a drive capable of substituting enough energy to overcome the larger drive output and area of the DN.

I'd rather think of it as jury-rigging the wedge.

The concept of "bomb pumping" doesn't accurately convey the notion. You're not trying to produce any type bomb. You're trying to quickly multiply the power of your wedge. The fact that it produces an explosion when it meets another like itself is besides the point.

It's Engineering 101 to Harkness, Foraker, Zilwicki, and Hemphill.

cthia wrote:

Spacekiwi wrote:So, bomb-pumping the wedge then. Note the bit about being unable to put a wedge capable of being able to take down a DN wedge with anything less than a BB sized missile. If the requirement is X total power in the wedge, and the formula is force/meter (gigajoules/m2 say) times area, the lac has a smaller area, and doesnt have the ability to mount a drive capable of substituting enough energy to overcome the larger drive output and area of the DN.

I'd rather think of it as jury-rigging the wedge.

The concept of "bomb pumping" doesn't accurately convey the notion. You're not trying to produce any type bomb. You're trying to quickly multiply the power of your wedge. The fact that it produces an explosion when it meets another like itself is besides the point.

It's Engineering 101 to Harkness, Foraker, Zilwicki, and Hemphill.

If it is impossible to do on a missile, something that has nothing other than equipment designed to attack the enemy, smaller than a battleship, it will be even more so on a ship smaller than a battleship.

Also, if you read the second info dump, RFC seems to take it for granted that the ONLY thing a kamikaze LAC could take down on an SD is its sidewall.

In the words of DW himself":

You could build a starship with over-powered nodes, which is basically what the Peeps did with the Mars-class, but even so, you would not be able to shoehorn anything capable of taking out, say, a dreadnought's wedge into anything smaller than a battleship-sized "missile."

So you could try and build something to have a super powered wedge, but you are looking at BB sized minimum, and no crew, as he has talked elsewhere about how missile wedges can only be so strong by destroying themselves to be so powerful. they are use and lose wedges, whereas a starship has a weaker type wedge. Doable? potentially. But it requires a BB wedge, not a lac or missile.


Remember, a lac is about 22,000 tons (shrike). an old DN (eg samothrace) is about 4,000,000 tons, or ~180 times bigger, with the lac being modern and huge, and the DN being old and tiny. If a lac is a 75kg dirtbike, then the old Samothrace is a 13.5 ton truck, and a modern SD like the grayson Benjamin the great is almost 400 times bigger, or a 30 ton truck.

Also, dont forget, Lac's dont have alpha nodes, but the weaker beta squared nodes, so their wedge will be weaker than an equivalent alpha node wedge.


You can jury rig a wedge as powerful as you like on the Lac, it wont take down the wedge on anything over 50,000 tons (as a BB is about half the mass of a SD), and even if you give the Lac alpha nodes, and the benefit of a 3 times stronger wedge, you might succeed in taking out a DD.

Edit: Found the number fort a roland, at 190k tons. so a 25k Lac with a 3x better wedge, and the ability to destroy a wedge of a ship twice its size, if its dedicated purely to wedge killing, could take down a 140k DD. so your plan can't even take out a Roland DD.

cthia wrote:I'd rather think of it as jury-rigging the wedge.

The concept of "bomb pumping" doesn't accurately convey the notion. You're not trying to produce any type bomb. You're trying to quickly multiply the power of your wedge. The fact that it produces an explosion when it meets another like itself is besides the point.

It's Engineering 101 to Harkness, Foraker, Zilwicki, and Hemphill.

Scrap yards, Breakers, and used equipment sales/auctions exist for a reason. You can make money doing it and people need at least the actual materials being reclaimed if not compleat (if used) equipment.

Manticore can certainly use any equipment it can strip off of heaveily damaged warships. If for nothing else, as replacement and repair parts for existing ships. Start with complex things like missile handleing gear and magazine feed tubes, grazer and laser lensing etc and work down to any number of their solid state circuit equipment pieces and sensor system parts.

If there is a market for things, people will strip them off ships. Have a Saganami C that is effectivly wrecked beyond repair? How many alpah and beta nodes can you recover (and not let fall into someone else's hands? All of the ammuntion left on-board? Since the fusuion plants (you still actually have the ship) didn't blow, what about all the instermentaion and controls- after you have done a full shutdown on the reactor(s) and delt with the hot stuff? Any of the sensor and communications gear. All of the surviving missile handling and tube related electronics? Everything that is left in it's spairs lockers. The list goes on.

Since the armor is grown with nanites, there may be a way to use armor from scrapped ships as feedstock for new armor.

Where I grew up there used to be (it was sold and the name changed) a really successful scrap company. The name was always followed by their little tag-line:

Schavoni Scrap Metal-Alchemists

Really brilliant bit of grabbing attention.

Brigade XO wrote:Scrap yards, Breakers, and used equipment sales/auctions exist for a reason. You can make money doing it and people need at least the actual materials being reclaimed if not compleat (if used) equipment.

Manticore can certainly use any equipment it can strip off of heaveily damaged warships. If for nothing else, as replacement and repair parts for existing ships. Start with complex things like missile handleing gear and magazine feed tubes, grazer and laser lensing etc and work down to any number of their solid state circuit equipment pieces and sensor system parts.

If there is a market for things, people will strip them off ships. Have a Saganami C that is effectivly wrecked beyond repair? How many alpah and beta nodes can you recover (and not let fall into someone else's hands? All of the ammuntion left on-board? Since the fusuion plants (you still actually have the ship) didn't blow, what about all the instermentaion and controls- after you have done a full shutdown on the reactor(s) and delt with the hot stuff? Any of the sensor and communications gear. All of the surviving missile handling and tube related electronics? Everything that is left in it's spairs lockers. The list goes on.

Since the armor is grown with nanites, there may be a way to use armor from scrapped ships as feedstock for new armor.

Where I grew up there used to be (it was sold and the name changed) a really successful scrap company. The name was always followed by their little tag-line:

Schavoni Scrap Metal-Alchemists

Really brilliant bit of grabbing attention.

Absolutely, Brigade XO. I really enjoy this post.

This is what I was getting at a few posts ago when I asked

When battles happen in other systems, who owns the wreckage?

It has to be a lucrative business collecting scrap metal if it's free for the taking.

I mean, can you imagine an SSM-Alchemists in the Honorverse?

This outfit dispatches its mobile recycling rigs (MRR's) as the military calls them, and cleans up a battle scene. These guys arrive soon after a battle is over, and they look like a fleet of vultures encircling their dead-prey, collecting metal from space and running down coasting hulks of dead metal - with the fire of life extinguished from it.

But the real magic is the SMD, which maps the location of every piece of metal. Doesn't have any military applications other than reclamation. The turnaround time is too high for military applications. But, the system accomplishes its mission quite well. Essentially it is a gargantuan metal detector in space.

Is it too far a stretch to imagine that there might even be privately held scrap-yards in space, junkyards, if you will? But of course, some outfits will have the better junk. If you're a seriously injured, limping vessel (as Zilwicki and Cachat) being near a salvage yard could be critical.

And of course, you're always going to have people scamming the wreckage for copper.

It seems an entity like the Star Kingdom would have its own SSM-As as military adjuncts, to maintain military security (Computer technology, engineering and metals, resins and production techniques.)

We do that now. We totally destroy downed advanced military hardware. A downed F-15 is still worth the cost of an expensive missile to total it.

If it's free, reselling the Star Kingdom, or the Republic, back their own resources, seems like a worthwhile alternative to becoming a pirate.

So, just between you and me, I'll be a pirate just long enough to buy that first rig, a big-assed freighter tricked out to junk-hunt!

Humor:

Of course, we all realize that there will be a competing outfit in space, called Sanford and Sons.