Honorverse ramblings and musings

cthia wrote:We know that she's Protector's Champion. It is the entry point for this can-o-worms, because only on Grayson does that title exist. Grayson, a planet whose entire existence is rooted in faith and the knowledge that there is a God. I don't purport to know whether or not soliciting the help of an android as People's Champion would be acceptable by the people of Grayson. But I'd be willing to bet that the people of Grayson would not find it humorous if it was pushed through without full dosclosure. And for you to suggest such a thing is shocking. THIS IS GRAYSON. Your heretic views highlight the danger of Grayson allowing interaction from the outside.

--snip--

An "old man" on Grayson as People's Champion is part of the process and is inherent in its design. And it is totally fair by the laws of Grayson. Sad maybe, but fair. The important thing is it doesn't offer a lever to cause a constitutional crisis or a breach of faith for an entire planet. Would Burdette still challenge if it was an old man? Probably. It would still remain fair, under the laws of Grayson.

So, no real change in your viewpoint, and certainly not in mine. This becomes another one of those things that you believe will be addressed in some indefinite date in the future of the Honorverse; like the SLN's "karmic" retribution against Beowulf.

It still seems that you are being more of a "Champion" of Grayson's religion than anyone on Grayson is. The trial by combat occurred in about 1906 PD, by about 1913 PD a statue of Honor and Nimitz waiting for the fight to the death was erected in front of the Steadholder's Hall (and the only one threatening to blow it up was Honor herself) and by 1922 PD there was still no sign of this moral turmoil that you claim is waiting to erupt. There is no sign of a constitutional crisis nor of a breach of faith for an entire planet.

tlb wrote:

cthia wrote:We know that she's Protector's Champion. It is the entry point for this can-o-worms, because only on Grayson does that title exist. Grayson, a planet whose entire existence is rooted in faith and the knowledge that there is a God. I don't purport to know whether or not soliciting the help of an android as People's Champion would be acceptable by the people of Grayson. But I'd be willing to bet that the people of Grayson would not find it humorous if it was pushed through without full dosclosure. And for you to suggest such a thing is shocking. THIS IS GRAYSON. Your heretic views highlight the danger of Grayson allowing interaction from the outside.

--snip--

An "old man" on Grayson as People's Champion is part of the process and is inherent in its design. And it is totally fair by the laws of Grayson. Sad maybe, but fair. The important thing is it doesn't offer a lever to cause a constitutional crisis or a breach of faith for an entire planet. Would Burdette still challenge if it was an old man? Probably. It would still remain fair, under the laws of Grayson.

So, no real change in your viewpoint, and certainly not in mine. This becomes another one of those things that you believe will be addressed in some indefinite date in the future of the Honorverse; like the SLN's "karmic" retribution against Beowulf.

It still seems that you are being more of a "Champion" of Grayson's religion than anyone on Grayson is. The trial by combat occurred in about 1906 PD, by about 1913 PD a statue of Honor and Nimitz waiting for the fight to the death was erected in front of the Steadholder's Hall (and the only one threatening to blow it up was Honor herself) and by 1922 PD there was still no sign of this moral turmoil that you claim is waiting to erupt. There is no sign of a constitutional crisis nor of a breach of faith for an entire planet.

There can be no sign of excrement before the shit hits the fan. IOW, Honor's secret, and how it relates to the duel, has not hit the fan.

I agree no one was threatening to blow up Honor's statue. The disgruntled faction (who still exists) were too busy trying to blow her up. As whether my views have changed, let's just say I reserve final judgement until Honor takes the stand.

I have never claimed any subject I broach in the Honorverse will be addressed in the future.

cthia wrote:I agree no one was threatening to blow up Honor's statue. The disgruntled faction (who still exists) were too busy trying to blow her up. As whether my views have changed, let's just say I reserve final judgement until Honor takes the stand.

I have never claimed any subject I broach in the Honorverse will be addressed in the future.

I admit that I have a hard time understanding you sometimes, because the following passage seems to say that something will happen in the future; just as you seem to think that Honor will have to take the stand at some point. But if what you are saying now is that RFC will never address your problems in the stories, then I agree.

cthia wrote:I should also state that regardless of what UH holds, it will not change my mind that Beowulf has ordered up a big fat bowl of bad karma. Regardless of whether it was actually delivered in UH. Regardless of what happened in UH, Beowulf has it coming. That's what the Harrington Doctrine was trying to avoid. The Harrington Doctrine details the dangers of karma slowly festering and growing big and nasty and ready enough to stomp a mud hole in some targeted upturned asses. IOW, Beowulf's karma may be decades delayed.

This was on the following page:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=9380&start=530

tlb wrote:

cthia wrote:I agree no one was threatening to blow up Honor's statue. The disgruntled faction (who still exists) were too busy trying to blow her up. As whether my views have changed, let's just say I reserve final judgement until Honor takes the stand.

I have never claimed any subject I broach in the Honorverse will be addressed in the future.

I admit that I have a hard time understanding you sometimes, because the following passage seems to say that something will happen in the future; just as you seem to think that Honor will have to take the stand at some point. But if what you are saying now is that RFC will never address your problems in the stories, then I agree.

cthia wrote:I should also state that regardless of what UH holds, it will not change my mind that Beowulf has ordered up a big fat bowl of bad karma. Regardless of whether it was actually delivered in UH. Regardless of what happened in UH, Beowulf has it coming. That's what the Harrington Doctrine was trying to avoid. The Harrington Doctrine details the dangers of karma slowly festering and growing big and nasty and ready enough to stomp a mud hole in some targeted upturned asses. IOW, Beowulf's karma may be decades delayed.

This was on the following page:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=9380&start=530

RFC certainly could address them, if he wanted to. If he suffered a writer's block and needed some filler. But, as I said, sometimes it's better to let sleeping dogs lie.

Beowulf did order up a big fat bowl of karma. And, it seems that that karma was delivered in UH, instead of in the future. Technically, UH was the future. Although, the future may hold yet even more SL vengeance against its former family of traitors. Again, it could be said that the Harrington Doctrine was meant to squash the germination of karma.

I never said that anything will definitely happen in the future. But that the stage has been set for something to happen. In the words of a meteorologist, conditions are ripe for a storm. Honor's secret may never get out in that capacity, other than amongst friends and those in the need to know. Keeping that secret has served her well, militarily. At any rate, I am saying that if it were to make it to a court of her peers, Honor's input would be needed. She'd have to speak for herself on that one.

BTW, I yielded to my niece because she has a valid point. Unlike you, I consider that as a significant change in my stance. Whereas I saw no way out of the matter before, I now recognize that there is one. But it hinges on Honor's testimony, again, if it ever came to pass.

cthia wrote:Beowulf did order up a big fat bowl of karma. And, it seems that that karma was delivered in UH, instead of in the future. Technically, UH was the future. Although, the future may hold yet even more SL vengeance against its former family of traitors.

The problem with that statement is that the retribution came from the Mesan Alignment, not the Solarian League. In UH the Solarian League was more bark than bite (except for a few planets that were defenseless).

Perhaps you could chalk this one up to an earlier mess of karma arising from the argument with the Detweilers.

The grist is from a previous post . . .

Indeed, the consensus amongst my friends seems to be that it was nothing short of providence that Honor chose not to join the Church of Humanity Unchained. Leaving her under the covenant of her own faith. Which hopefully shares the same Bible as traditional religions.

Thou shall not tempt the Lord thy God

This is quoted literally from Deuteronomy 6:16. The meaning is, thou shalt not try him; or, thou shalt not, by throwing thyself into voluntary and uncommanded dangers, appeal to God for protection, or trifle with the promises made to those who are thrown into danger by his providence.

This should be self-explanatory. If not, essentially, Honor should not have given up her edge, then possibly having to duel anyway.


****** *

Providence

• divine guidance or care
• timely preparation for future eventualities

Of course, future eventualities mainly includes the excrement from this can-o-worms hitting the fan.

This can-o-worms is highly religious in nature.

cthia wrote:Honor should not have given up her edge, then possibly having to duel anyway.

To make this clear: are you announcing a change from your previously stated position?

tlb wrote:

cthia wrote:Honor should not have given up her edge, then possibly having to duel anyway.

To make this clear: are you announcing a change from your previously stated position?

cthia wrote:. . .the consensus amongst my friends.

Religion is a rather personal thing. I respect my friends and their religious slant. And I agree for the most part.

There are still other considerations I can't so easily sweep under the rug. Do note, personally, I'm forgiving of Honor's decision if we consider how exhausted she was, wounded and drowning in grief. As I've already stated, I can imagine she didn't even think about securing Nimitz. May have even needed his empathy for moral support, s[purring] her on to fight through her pain. I'm simply saying it could cause problems down the road. And, rightly so.

Another thing that has cropped up is this fact: In Honor failing to inform Burdette of her secret, she might possibly have prevented Burdette from declining to fight, thus possibly saving his soul, if, indeed, he was out of alignment with Tester's wishes. Much like the idiots who were responsible for the death of Reverend Hanks and the collapse of The Mueller Middle School, had a chance to repent. And, iinm, one of them did ask Tester for forgiveness.

Just to lighten the load a little . . .

Kael Posavatz wrote:(Trying desperately not to make a pun about how it's a good thing Honor has never taken up golf)

Why? Should she have yelled . . . "fore!" To warn of the danger of a foul swing at Burdette?

Was she about to tee off with an illegal "club?" If she'd divulged her secret, she'd have landed in the fairway instead of ending up in the bunker. If her secret gets out, they'd realize she cheated getting out of the sand trap laid by Burdette. You can't legally touch the ball (crease) before taking a sha wing. We all know it was a simple chip shot for Honor, so why cheat? It was a simple putt. If Burdette had been morally informed, perhaps he'd not have attempted a pitch shot.

Unbeknownst to Burdette, he didn't know he was also playing with a handicap, just like Honor. Though his handicap was much higher than Honor's. In match play, aren't you supposed to be informed of your handicap?

Doncha just love analogies?

One of my friends, the Nascar nut, said I missed one . . .

"Instead of attempting a pitch shot from the high guard position, Burdette should have assumed the low guard position and used a drive-er."