Honorverse ramblings and musings

cthia wrote:Vince, you have such salient points, but of course, the worms are still squirming and a few have made a break for it. The biggest worm is safely ensconced, having spun a web of deceit.

The whole idea of trial by combat as practiced by the Graysons is that God weighs in on the side of the victor. A secondary point was that Burdette asked God to preserve the righteous, and he did. Since Honor won the duel, God preserved the righteous by being on her side.

Exhibit A: Burdette's dead body on the floor of the Conclave Chamber at the end of the duel.

Burdette made the mistake of not being careful what you wish for. You might say that Burdette not only lost his head, but also hit the cutting room floor hard.

If by biggest worm you mean Mueller, karma paid a visit when he got his comeuppance in:

Ashes of Victory, Chapter 46 wrote:"And now this," Elizabeth said at last, so softly it was difficult to hear her. "We may never prove it, but I'm convinced—I know—the Peeps were behind what happened at Yeltsin's Star. The Faithful may have been the actual triggermen, but it was the Peeps who got them the weapons . . . and probably the ones who suggested to the Faithful that they ought to 'convince' Mueller to smuggle the targeting beacons on board by giving them to me and Allen."
And Mueller's paid for it, too, Honor thought grimly.
The steadholder had been impeached, tried, and condemned to death in barely one week, and sentence had been carried out immediately. There had been no question who'd handed the memory stones to Elizabeth and Cromarty, and his fate had been sealed from the moment the beacon inside Elizabeth's stone had been discovered.

cthia wrote:

ldwechsler wrote:Ritual challenges are NOT considered murder LEGALLY. Yes, family members may feel it is true and if the sides are really mismatched there could be issues.

That was hardly true in the Honor-Burdette match in terms of her killing him. She didn't use Nimitz in the fighting at all. She used her knowledge of people fighting...something learned by all great swordsmen.

Had it gone the other way, Burdette might have had problems about killer her since a) killing women is really looked down on by Grayson people, and b) she was exhausted from saving the planet.

But, although later events show that Burdette's heir was an even more cowardly slime, it was still not murder.

I'm not even a lawyer, but even I could make a good case for murder.

That's why you're not a lawyer. Murder (or homicide) has many variations. And there is always the "kill in self-defense theory."

Clearly, Honor killed in self-defense.

The fact that YOUR PERSONAL system thinks its murder is nice. You are probably a sweet person who loves kittens. But even the US recognized personal duels as legal for a while. Remember Hamilton.

A county's laws are what determines things. Germany got around its laws against murder in the Holocaust by determining that Jews and others were not really human. That worked legally until the fall of the Nazis when that "wrinkle" disappeared.

But under your definition, the destruction of Filareta's fleet was also murder.

ldwechsler wrote:Ritual challenges are NOT considered murder LEGALLY. Yes, family members may feel it is true and if the sides are really mismatched there could be issues.

That was hardly true in the Honor-Burdette match in terms of her killing him. She didn't use Nimitz in the fighting at all. She used her knowledge of people fighting...something learned by all great swordsmen.

Had it gone the other way, Burdette might have had problems about killer her since a) killing women is really looked down on by Grayson people, and b) she was exhausted from saving the planet.

But, although later events show that Burdette's heir was an even more cowardly slime, it was still not murder.

Saving the planet came after the sword fight.

I truly acknowledge your points Vince, but I must call to your attention that all of the textev you supplied can be used either for or against Honor. In this case of man against God, textev is a double-edged sword regarding which part of the sword one chooses to sharpen or highlight.

E.g. . . .

Vince's highlighted text. . .

"My Lords," he cried, "I do not dispute the facts this harlot claims, nor do I regret any of my acts! I say only that I neither desired nor ordered Reverend Hanks' death, and that no man can prove against me, for I never even knew he would be present. But yes—yes, My Lords!—I did each and every other thing this foreign-born whore claims, and I would do them again—do them a thousand times again!—before I let an infidel fornicator and this traitor who calls himself Protector pollute and poison a world sacred to God!"

Cthia's highlighted text . . .

"My Lords," he cried, "I do not dispute the facts this harlot claims, nor do I regret any of my acts! I say only that I neither desired nor ordered Reverend Hanks' death, and that no man can prove against me, for I never even knew he would be present. But yes—yes, My Lords!—I did each and every other thing this foreign-born whore claims, and I would do them again—do them a thousand times again!—before I let an infidel fornicator and this traitor who calls himself Protector pollute and poison a world sacred to God!"

This is a man of convictions! Seeking to pass the Doctrine of his Test against the spineless jellyfish who refuse to act.

Vince wrote:Burdette wasn't, by his own admission, righteous. God answered his prayer, preserving the righteous and striking down the unrighteous. The idea of God forgiving sin is directly dependent on the sinner acknowledging their sins, and repenting those sins. Burdette was defiant, not repentant, and would commit his sins again.

There is the stumbling block. Burdette never claimed to be unrighteous. He claimed to be guilty of man's charges - in the pursuit of what he thinks is right in the eyes of Tester for the preservation of Grayson. Burdette's fear was not of man but of God. Where it should be.

Burdette did not acknowledge a sin, if that which is thought to be a sin by man is what Tester required.

Do understand this: If man's law goes against God where should the Christian stand?

If it wasn't for Christians and their convictions, black people may still be slaves. Jews may still be murdered. Slaves were legal under man's law. Exterminating Jews was legal under man's law. If in either case a man of God disagrees and decides to face the Doctrine of his Test, then it is for the Glory of God that he acts. Man can take away his life, but not his everlasting life. He will not be killed permanently.

Burdette, Mueller and many others truly felt the Protector and his Restoration was unrighteous in Tester's eyes and that Grayson was fornicating with a sinful whore.

Vince wrote:I think Burdette forfeited any right to know when he acknowledged his guilt to the entire planet:

Burdette acknowledged being guilty of the charges of man. He did not admit guilt of breaking any of Tester's laws.

Another stickler: Burdette did not forfeit his right to challenge.

"I reject your right to condemn me to death in order to silence God's voice of opposition to your corrupt abuse of power! As is my ancient right before God, the law, and this Conclave, I challenge your decree! . . .

1. Let your Champion stand forth and prove the true will of God sword-to-sword, in the ancient way of our fathers,
2. and may God preserve the righteous!"

Neither of the two happened. One and two were rigged in such a way that both nullified God's vote. The entire matter was decided by tainting the preponderance of evidence. God did not preserve the righteous. The unrighteous was preserved by deceit. There are times satan and his harlot wins. As would be argued by Burdette's family.

Grayson's dueling system is no different than the Manticorans in as much as, there are rules involved. Breaking these rules forfeits your life and that is why Pavel Young was shot. Just as someone would be shot by smuggling a secret weapon that would not simply rig the odds, but in this case . . . blow them out of the water.

Honor's ability is a specific weapon that can flawlessly detect "the crease" that which is thought to be a matter of life and death and victory in this duel.

So tell me again how God's intent to preserve the righteous was carried out. Except by the unrighteous justifications of ungodly men.

Remember, Grayson is a religious planet. That isn't just a poignant point regarding Grayson. But crucial. That is part and parcel why Benjamin decided never to deceive his constituents.

Benjamin decided long ago that deceit is a slippery slope.

Subterfuge and deceit are not hallmarks of God's judgment.

In modern parlance I think we can substitute . . .

Two wrongs do not make a right.

cthia wrote:I truly acknowledge your points Vince, but I must call to your attention that all of the textev you supplied can be used either for or against Honor. In this case of man against God, textev is a double-edged sword regarding which part of the sword one chooses to sharpen or highlight.

E.g. . . .

Vince's highlighted text. . .

"My Lords," he cried, "I do not dispute the facts this harlot claims, nor do I regret any of my acts! I say only that I neither desired nor ordered Reverend Hanks' death, and that no man can prove against me, for I never even knew he would be present. But yes—yes, My Lords!—I did each and every other thing this foreign-born whore claims, and I would do them again—do them a thousand times again!—before I let an infidel fornicator and this traitor who calls himself Protector pollute and poison a world sacred to God!"

Cthia's highlighted text . . .

"My Lords," he cried, "I do not dispute the facts this harlot claims, nor do I regret any of my acts! I say only that I neither desired nor ordered Reverend Hanks' death, and that no man can prove against me, for I never even knew he would be present. But yes—yes, My Lords!—I did each and every other thing this foreign-born whore claims, and I would do them again—do them a thousand times again!—before I let an infidel fornicator and this traitor who calls himself Protector pollute and poison a world sacred to God!"

This is a man of convictions! Seeking to pass the Doctrine of his Test against the spineless jellyfish who refuse to act.

Vince wrote:Burdette wasn't, by his own admission, righteous. God answered his prayer, preserving the righteous and striking down the unrighteous. The idea of God forgiving sin is directly dependent on the sinner acknowledging their sins, and repenting those sins. Burdette was defiant, not repentant, and would commit his sins again.

There is the stumbling block. Burdette never claimed to be unrighteous. He claimed to be guilty of man's charges - in the pursuit of what he thinks is right in the eyes of Tester for the preservation of Grayson. Burdette's fear was not of man but of God. Where it should be.

Burdette did not acknowledge a sin, if that which is thought to be a sin by man is what Tester required.

Do understand this: If man's law goes against God where should the Christian stand?

If it wasn't for Christians and their convictions, black people may still be slaves. Jews may still be murdered. Slaves were legal under man's law. Exterminating Jews was legal under man's law. If in either case a man of God disagrees and decides to face the Doctrine of his Test, then it is for the Glory of God that he acts. Man can take away his life, but not his everlasting life. He will not be killed permanently.

Burdette, Mueller and many others truly felt the Protector and his Restoration was unrighteous in Tester's eyes and that Grayson was fornicating with a sinful whore.

Vince wrote:I think Burdette forfeited any right to know when he acknowledged his guilt to the entire planet:

Burdette acknowledged being guilty of the charges of man. He did not admit guilt of breaking any of Tester's laws.

Another stickler: Burdette did not forfeit his right to challenge.

"I reject your right to condemn me to death in order to silence God's voice of opposition to your corrupt abuse of power! As is my ancient right before God, the law, and this Conclave, I challenge your decree! . . .

1. Let your Champion stand forth and prove the true will of God sword-to-sword, in the ancient way of our fathers,
2. and may God preserve the righteous!"

Neither of the two happened. One and two were rigged in such a way that both nullified God's vote. The entire matter was decided by tainting the preponderance of evidence. God did not preserve the righteous. The unrighteous was preserved by deceit. There are times satan and his harlot wins. As would be argued by Burdette's family.

Grayson's dueling system is no different than the Manticorans in as much as, there are rules involved. Breaking these rules forfeits your life and that is why Pavel Young was shot. Just as someone would be shot by smuggling a secret weapon that would not simply rig the odds, but in this case . . . blow them out of the water.

Honor's ability is a specific weapon that can flawlessly detect "the crease" that which is thought to be a matter of life and death and victory in this duel.

So tell me again how God's intent to preserve the righteous was carried out. Except by the unrighteous justifications of ungodly men.

Remember, Grayson is a religious planet. That isn't just a poignant point regarding Grayson. But crucial. That is part and parcel why Benjamin decided never to deceive his constituents.

Benjamin decided long ago that deceit is a slippery slope.

Subterfuge and deceit are not hallmarks of God's judgment.

Honor's gift is God given, even if ensbled by a cute, cuddly, Sphynxian Treecat. It is righteous for her to use her gift.

TFLYTSNBN wrote:Honor's gift is God given, even if ensbled by a cute, cuddly, Sphynxian Treecat. It is righteous for her to use her gift.

Brilliant! I like that! And it can be rightly argued!

Except, is it exactly righteous to withhold knowledge of the weapon under the circumstances? Knowing full-well Burdette didn't have a chance, and knowing because of it, Burdette himself didn't know he had NO CHANCE. I agree that it is righteous for the People's champion to use her talents. It is part of the riches God has bestowed upon her. So proclaim it to the world the truth of all who represent God - lest God be accused of deceit - and then let [him] be foolish, or wise, into challenging.

At the very least, with foreknowledge of Honor's inhuman-like abilities Burdette may have chosen the low guard position, instead of the high guard . . . opening himself up to be sliced from asshole to appetite.

On present day Earth, one may have a right to know if one is going up against what is essentially a mutant.

Clark Kent's parents, to Clark's chagrin, told him he didn't have any business on the gridiron.

See Exhibit A in this post.

cthia wrote:I truly acknowledge your points Vince, but I must call to your attention that all of the textev you supplied can be used either for or against Honor. In this case of man against God, textev is a double-edged sword regarding which part of the sword one chooses to sharpen or highlight.

E.g. . . .

Vince's highlighted text. . .

"My Lords," he cried, "I do not dispute the facts this harlot claims, nor do I regret any of my acts! I say only that I neither desired nor ordered Reverend Hanks' death, and that no man can prove against me, for I never even knew he would be present. But yes—yes, My Lords!—I did each and every other thing this foreign-born whore claims, and I would do them again—do them a thousand times again!—before I let an infidel fornicator and this traitor who calls himself Protector pollute and poison a world sacred to God!"

Cthia's highlighted text . . .

"My Lords," he cried, "I do not dispute the facts this harlot claims, nor do I regret any of my acts! I say only that I neither desired nor ordered Reverend Hanks' death, and that no man can prove against me, for I never even knew he would be present. But yes—yes, My Lords!—I did each and every other thing this foreign-born whore claims, and I would do them again—do them a thousand times again!—before I let an infidel fornicator and this traitor who calls himself Protector pollute and poison a world sacred to God!"

This is a man of convictions! Seeking to pass the Doctrine of his Test against the spineless jellyfish who refuse to act.

Vince wrote:Burdette wasn't, by his own admission, righteous. God answered his prayer, preserving the righteous and striking down the unrighteous. The idea of God forgiving sin is directly dependent on the sinner acknowledging their sins, and repenting those sins. Burdette was defiant, not repentant, and would commit his sins again.

There is the stumbling block. Burdette never claimed to be unrighteous. He claimed to be guilty of man's charges - in the pursuit of what he thinks is right in the eyes of Tester for the preservation of Grayson. Burdette's fear was not of man but of God. Where it should be.

Burdette did not acknowledge a sin, if that which is thought to be a sin by man is what Tester required.

Do understand this: If man's law goes against God where should the Christian stand?

If it wasn't for Christians and their convictions, black people may still be slaves. Jews may still be murdered. Slaves were legal under man's law. Exterminating Jews was legal under man's law. If in either case a man of God disagrees and decides to face the Doctrine of his Test, then it is for the Glory of God that he acts. Man can take away his life, but not his everlasting life. He will not be killed permanently.

Burdette, Mueller and many others truly felt the Protector and his Restoration was unrighteous in Tester's eyes and that Grayson was fornicating with a sinful whore.

Vince wrote:I think Burdette forfeited any right to know when he acknowledged his guilt to the entire planet:

Burdette acknowledged being guilty of the charges of man. He did not admit guilt of breaking any of Tester's laws.

Another stickler: Burdette did not forfeit his right to challenge.

"I reject your right to condemn me to death in order to silence God's voice of opposition to your corrupt abuse of power! As is my ancient right before God, the law, and this Conclave, I challenge your decree! . . .

1. Let your Champion stand forth and prove the true will of God sword-to-sword, in the ancient way of our fathers,
2. and may God preserve the righteous!"

Neither of the two happened. One and two were rigged in such a way that both nullified God's vote. The entire matter was decided by tainting the preponderance of evidence. God did not preserve the righteous. The unrighteous was preserved by deceit. There are times satan and his harlot wins. As would be argued by Burdette's family.

Grayson's dueling system is no different than the Manticorans in as much as, there are rules involved. Breaking these rules forfeits your life and that is why Pavel Young was shot. Just as someone would be shot by smuggling a secret weapon that would not simply rig the odds, but in this case . . . blow them out of the water.

Honor's ability is a specific weapon that can flawlessly detect "the crease" that which is thought to be a matter of life and death and victory in this duel.

So tell me again how God's intent to preserve the righteous was carried out. Except by the unrighteous justifications of ungodly men.

Remember, Grayson is a religious planet. That isn't just a poignant point regarding Grayson. But crucial. That is part and parcel why Benjamin decided never to deceive his constituents.

Benjamin decided long ago that deceit is a slippery slope.

Subterfuge and deceit are not hallmarks of God's judgment.

Why Vince, I do believe what you're telling me is that your defense rests. Excellent! I acquiesce. Kudos. Thanks for getting me out of the hot seat with my niece for opening this particular can of—remaining true to mine self—worms. Hopefully I'm out of the hot seat with her.

My miffed Niece's Rebuttal

I'll have you know that Nimitz has had plenty of practice holding his breath. You of all people should know that!

<Honor! How am I supposed to refrain from slitting Pavel Young's throat!>

"How?"

<HOW! Honor!>

"Take a deep breath. Go on!"

<I . . . N . . . H . . . A . . . L . . . E>

"Now hold it! . . . Hold it! . . . Hold it! . . ."

Nimitz had PLENTY of practice!