The Two General's Problem

Jonathan_S wrote:

penny wrote:Personally I think it is more a matter of concern for wear and tear on the ship -- or even worse, destroying the ship outright; along with what I imagine is some serious nausea from a multi-crash translation.

I would note that since a crash translation appears to be a mater of the ship's starting velocity that a "multi-crash" translation would actually get less and less crashy each wall you translated through.

I'll do this from the Iota bands because RFC hasn't shared the velocity bleed-off values for Kappa, so take a streak-drive equipped ship screaming along at 0.6c in the Iota bands and starts a crash translation down to normal space. Here's its resulting velocity in each set of bands along the way.
Iota bands: 0.6c (179,875 KPS)
48% velocity bleed off dropped through the Iota wall
Theta bands: 0.312c (93,535 KPS)
52% velocity bleed off dropping through the Theta wall
Eta bands: 0.14976c (44,897 KPS)
56% velocity bleed off dropping through the Eta wall
Zeta bands: 0.065c (19,755 KPS)
61% velocity bleed off dropping through the Zeta wall
Epsilon bands: 0.025c (7,704 KPS)
66% velocity bleed off dropping through the Epsilon wall
Delta bands: 0.008c (2,619 KPS)
72% velocity bleed off dropping through the Delta wall
Gamma bands: 0.002c (733 KPS)
78% velocity bleed off dropping through the Gamma wall
Beta bands: 161 KPS
85% velocity bleed off dropping through the Beta wall
Alpha bands: 24 KPS
92% velocity bleed off dropping through the Alpha wall
Normal space: 2 KPS

By the time you've crashed through the first two or three walls you've lost so much velocity from the bleed-off effect that the remaining translations shouldn't be considered crash ones.

Perhaps, but adding just a little bit more nausea while descending each band atop of the nausea from the first crash while you haven't even begun to recover still has to be a copper-plated Cordelia Ransom. Well, speaking for myself who doesn't recover too well from nausea. Your resistance may vary.

At any rate, your numbers do enforce my notion that decreasing help should be needed from the hyper generator. An oversized brute of a hyper generator in the MA's case.

Jonathan_S wrote:92% velocity bleed off dropping through the Alpha wall

penny wrote:At any rate, your numbers do enforce my notion that decreasing help should be needed from the hyper generator. An oversized brute of a hyper generator in the MA's case.

Why would that reinforce anything? The percentage of bleed-off decreases the higher you go in the bands, but percentage increase in apparent top speed ALSO decreases the higher you go in the bands (the biggest percentage gain in speed and the biggest bleed-off is between Normal space and the Alpha band). The author does state that for the Alpha wall, the effort to go through is the same whether transitioning up or down. From More than Honor, in the "The Universe of Honor Harrington" section and chapter entitled "(1) Background (General)":

The major problem limiting hyper speeds was that simply getting into hyper did not create a propulsive effect. Indeed, the initial translation into hyper was a complex energy transfer which reduced a starship's velocity by "bleeding off" momentum. In effect, a translating hypership lost approximately 92% of its normal-space velocity when entering hyper. This had unfortunate consequences in terms of reaction mass requirements, particularly since the fact that hydrogen catcher fields were inoperable in hyper meant one could not replenish one's reaction mass underway. On the other hand, the velocity bleed effect applied equally regardless of the direction of the translation (that is, one lost 92% of one's velocity whether one was entering hyper-space from normal-space or normal-space from hyper-space), which meant that leaving hyper automatically decelerated one's vessel to a normal-space velocity only 08% of whatever its velocity had been in hyper-space. This tremendously reduced the amount of deceleration required at the far end of a hyper voyage and so made reaction drives at least workable.

penny wrote:Adrift implies no control and/or not anchored. If a spider can attach itself to the hyper wall, then it is anchored. A spider also has an “outboard motor,” so, not adrift.

Agreed, if it can anchor, great. We don't know that.

The outboard motor doesn't help if you don't know where to steer. You need to know what the sea current is in order to compensate for it. From inside a current with no landmarks, you can't do that.

That is, if wind exists in normal hyperspace. If wind exists and the ship is anchored, then the wind could damage the tractors. But these are not grav waves, so the storm should be light. I posit it won't be a problem for the very high powered tractors.

Agreed.

This becomes important, IMO, because the problem with drift should be more pronounced in the higher bands. And if a ship needs to periodically drop out of hyper and reset the hyperlogs in n-space, then it seems that an n-space coordinate wouldn't be as accurate relative to the iota and kappa bands. But if a spider ship can crash translate from the higher bands directly to n-space without a four minute interval, then the accuracy of translations would at least be equal to translating from the alpha band to n-space. But then it seems the problem with drift reasserts itself for the ship that drops down to n-space to refine the hyperlogs, when transiting back up into the iota or kappa band???

If you go to n-space, the problem of drift is resolved because then you have waypoints. You can accurately determine your position. Then just go back up into the hyperband your fleet is in to pass on the information. A destroyer can probably do this within 10 minutes, which should still allow it to go back all the way to kappa and RDV with the fleet.

However, if the ship is dropping to n-space, then it stands to reason the fleet is nowhere near the target. It might as well wait in Alpha instead of Kappa.

penny wrote:This becomes important, IMO, because the problem with drift should be more pronounced in the higher bands. And if a ship needs to periodically drop out of hyper and reset the hyperlogs in n-space, then it seems that an n-space coordinate wouldn't be as accurate relative to the iota and kappa bands. But if a spider ship can crash translate from the higher bands directly to n-space without a four minute interval, then the accuracy of translations would at least be equal to translating from the alpha band to n-space. But then it seems the problem with drift reasserts itself for the ship that drops down to n-space to refine the hyperlogs, when transiting back up into the iota or kappa band???

ThinksMarkedly wrote:If you go to n-space, the problem of drift is resolved because then you have waypoints. You can accurately determine your position. Then just go back up into the hyperband your fleet is in to pass on the information. A destroyer can probably do this within 10 minutes, which should still allow it to go back all the way to kappa and RDV with the fleet.

However, if the ship is dropping to n-space, then it stands to reason the fleet is nowhere near the target. It might as well wait in Alpha instead of Kappa.

Note that a ship without any large velocity, is NOT doing a crash translation when it transits to normal space, no matter from what band it starts. Also there is still the four minute wait for the hyper-generator to cycle after each transition through a wall in either direction.

So why not wait at an uninhabited system, because then none of this is necessary? Particularly if the waiting is for another component of the fleet to arrive, this would make everything so much simpler.

PS: Is the cycle time a function of how strong the hyper-generator is? Which could mean that the streak drive would take longer than four minutes.

tlb wrote:So why not wait at an uninhabited system, because then none of this is necessary? Particularly if the waiting is for another component of the fleet to arrive, this would make everything so much simpler.

And one of the other advantages of parking in an uninhabited system (beyond than making it easier to sure nobody gets so lost they miss the rendezvous) is that you can more easily carry out accurate fleet maneuver drills or wargames. After all, you're planning to attack an n-space target so while you wait it'd be better to train for that in n-space than in hyper.

Jonathan_S wrote:

tlb wrote:So why not wait at an uninhabited system, because then none of this is necessary? Particularly if the waiting is for another component of the fleet to arrive, this would make everything so much simpler.

And one of the other advantages of parking in an uninhabited system (beyond than making it easier to sure nobody gets so lost they miss the rendezvous) is that you can more easily carry out accurate fleet maneuver drills or wargames. After all, you're planning to attack an n-space target so while you wait it'd be better to train for that in n-space than in hyper.

Why?

Simple.

The reason the MAN might not want to wait in a common hyper band is because they do not want to be discovered. None of you failed to point out that a messenger could be discovered in the common bands.

The MAN's Paul Revere could be captured. The threat of such an unfortunate event is very real in the common bands.

What could be worse than their messenger being captured? The MAN simply cannot risk loitering in the Alpha band or parked at an uninhabited system. There isn't any such thing as a dependably uninhabited system. That Demon Murphy likes to hang out all over the galaxy.

I don't think you all are considering the fact that a MAN fleet will stick out like a sore thumb if it is spotted. This is a navy comprised of ships that look like no other ships in the galaxy. The maiden voyages of the LDs do not want to lose the element of surprise. An LD or any spider drive warship can not afford to be spotted by accident. That will set off a GALAXY WIDE CASE ZULU.

Hanging out in exclusive bands completely eliminates the chance of a premature discovery. That would be disastrous. The element of surprise is supremely important.

When the LDs ride, they will attack several systems simultaneously while the element of surprise exists. Hanging out in the Alpha band and "uninhabited" systems multiplies the chance of being discovered by the number of systems to be attacked.

This thread is about The Two Generals' Problem.

The two generals are not reckless idiots.

tlb wrote:So why not wait at an uninhabited system, because then none of this is necessary? Particularly if the waiting is for another component of the fleet to arrive, this would make everything so much simpler.

Jonathan_S wrote:And one of the other advantages of parking in an uninhabited system (beyond than making it easier to sure nobody gets so lost they miss the rendezvous) is that you can more easily carry out accurate fleet maneuver drills or wargames. After all, you're planning to attack an n-space target so while you wait it'd be better to train for that in n-space than in hyper.

penny wrote:Why?

Simple.

The reason the MAN might not want to wait in a common hyper band is because they do not want to be discovered. None of you failed to point out that a messenger could be discovered in the common bands.

The MAN's Paul Revere could be captured. The threat of such an unfortunate event is very real in the common bands.

What could be worse than their messenger being captured? The MAN simply cannot risk loitering in the Alpha band or parked at an uninhabited system. There isn't any such thing as a dependably uninhabited system. That Demon Murphy likes to hang out all over the galaxy.

I don't think you all are considering the fact that a MAN fleet will stick out like a sore thumb if it is spotted. This is a navy comprised of ships that look like no other ships in the galaxy. The maiden voyages of the LDs do not want to lose the element of surprise. An LD or any spider drive warship can not afford to be spotted by accident. That will set off a GALAXY WIDE CASE ZULU.

Hanging out in exclusive bands completely eliminates the chance of a premature discovery. That would be disastrous. The element of surprise is supremely important.

When the LDs ride, they will attack several systems simultaneously while the element of surprise exists. Hanging out in the Alpha band and "uninhabited" systems multiplies the chance of being discovered by the number of systems to be attacked.

This thread is about The Two Generals' Problem.

The two generals are not reckless idiots.

Are they hanging out in a band while waiting for a ship (or ships) that have had to travel a long way? Because the twain may never meet, which is why an uninhabited system far enough away to make random visitors unlikely is a better way to make a rendezvous. And if someone stumbles upon them, spider drive ships should able to either destroy or hide from the stranger.

What was pointed out about the lower bands was your statement that a courier could travel a long distance in the highest band to meet someone, without ever making a downward transition, was incorrect because of the problems of accumulated errors in the hyper-log. But it was also pointed out that actually encountering someone in an Alpha band when far away from any inhabited system was extremely low; even lower than the chance a courier that wanted to give you a message had of finding you.

When you say the Malign will "attack several systems simultaneously while the element of surprise exists"; I assume you mean that they will attack each system, before any messenger from another system that was attacked can bring warning. The timing does not need to be so exact that they actually are simultaneous and it may be counterproductive to attempt to do so.

penny wrote:Why?

Simple.

The reason the MAN might not want to wait in a common hyper band is because they do not want to be discovered. None of you failed to point out that a messenger could be discovered in the common bands.

The MAN's Paul Revere could be captured. The threat of such an unfortunate event is very real in the common bands.

What could be worse than their messenger being captured? The MAN simply cannot risk loitering in the Alpha band or parked at an uninhabited system. There isn't any such thing as a dependably uninhabited system. That Demon Murphy likes to hang out all over the galaxy.

I don't think you all are considering the fact that a MAN fleet will stick out like a sore thumb if it is spotted. This is a navy comprised of ships that look like no other ships in the galaxy. The maiden voyages of the LDs do not want to lose the element of surprise. An LD or any spider drive warship can not afford to be spotted by accident. That will set off a GALAXY WIDE CASE ZULU.

Hanging out in exclusive bands completely eliminates the chance of a premature discovery. That would be disastrous. The element of surprise is supremely important.

When the LDs ride, they will attack several systems simultaneously while the element of surprise exists. Hanging out in the Alpha band and "uninhabited" systems multiplies the chance of being discovered by the number of systems to be attacked.

This thread is about The Two Generals' Problem.

The two generals are not reckless idiots.

It's true that staying somewhere that (for the moment) nobody else (that we know of) can reach makes you immune from detection.

OTOH waiting in an arbitrary spot in the Alpha band (e.g. not near a star system) the chances of being stumbled upon by accident are about like winning the lottery grand prize, several weeks in a row. Nobody travels in the Alpha bands except very briefly when arriving at or departing a system -- otherwise they climb to the highest band they can transit safely and stay there, rather than plodding along in the slow lane. (And no, there aren't going to be ships out there that can't go higher than the Alpha band -- ships have been able to reach at least the Beta bands for over a thousand years. (The survey ship Suffren that scouted Manticore before it was claimed for colonization, way back in 774 PD, went higher than the Alpha bands. So ships in hyper are going to be almost exclusively clustered in the Delta (normal merchantmen) or Theta (couriers, fast liners, military ships) bands. So outside of a few known detour areas, or places right around star systems where ships might pass through the bands for minutes as they enter or exit hyper, ships just aren't going to be in any of the other accessible bands.


And while there is also a technically a non-zero chance of someone sticking their nose in an uninhabited star system the odds are really low probably still in win the lottery one level. If the area around Manticore is anything like the area around the Sun there should be around 70 stars within 30 LY (under 3 days travel by streak drive) and most of them would be small worthless red dwarfs which would have long ago be surveyed and determined to have nothing of economic or military worth.
Of course spider ships are crazy stealthy, so even if someone poked their nose into the worthless system where they were waiting a star system is a vast area (especially if you're hanging around outside its hyper limit) and even a warship thoroughly searching the place is extremely likely miss them; much less someone themselves trying to hide or prospect a worthless system. So even their the chance of getting detected waiting there is probably in the win multiple lotteries in a row territory.


But, sure, if they want to totally eliminate the possibility of detection they should avoid those. However I still think that the chance of detection is already so close to zero as to be effectively the same thing and thus they don't need to result to such stunts

Also, at the moment the MAlign has one system where their spider ships live; Darius.

They really don't have any need to have mid-space rendezvous because all their warships would be starting out from the same point. They could simply travel together to the target. If you wanted time-on-target strikes on multiple systems just stagger the departures from Darius so they'll all arrive at the same time.

Mid-space meet-ups are something you need when you've got widely dispersed forces like the Peeps and need to gather a fleet piecemeal with a division or two from here, squadron from there, etc. until you'll have your desired force level. Not when your ships all start out in the same place.

penny wrote:Hanging out in exclusive bands completely eliminates the chance of a premature discovery. That would be disastrous. The element of surprise is supremely important.

Can they assume the band is exclusive? Should they?

They know they lost a top scientist of the streak drive. They know the GA will start developing it. And will probably not say when they have it before commercialising it.

When the LDs ride, they will attack several systems simultaneously while the element of surprise exists. Hanging out in the Alpha band and "uninhabited" systems multiplies the chance of being discovered by the number of systems to be attacked.

This thread is about The Two Generals' Problem.

The two generals are not reckless idiots.

There are a hundred of star within a dozen or so light-years of anywhere (the number crosses 100 stars in our neighbourhood at 18 light-years in radius and the Sol system is in a low-density region). Three quarters of all such stars are M-class red dwarfs where no one lives or goes to. The chance of anyone randomly stumbling upon a fleet is negligible. Especially if those are stealth ships in the first place.

That's not recklessness. It's managed risk. Especially since a) the high bands are not exclusive either, b) there's a risk of failing to meet, and c) the drift makes a surprise attack doubtful.