New ship idea

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:Hephaestus was more than the Navy Yards, it was the largest of the civilian industrial nodes. Any facilities built at Basilisk by the Liberal/Progressive/Conservatives as a "build the peace" initiative would have been civilian repair yards for the pass-through merchant traffic; not building capacity (which they had tons of, since they had stopped warship construction in the home system yards).

Also, it would have been referred to by WH after the Yawata Strike, when he listed the existing Navy capabilities.

Rob

Would he have necessarily listed non-Navy capabilities? If they had been purely civilian yards, they wouldn't necessarily be his to report on or think about. (They may of course also be trivial.)

JeffEngel wrote:

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:Hephaestus was more than the Navy Yards, it was the largest of the civilian industrial nodes. Any facilities built at Basilisk by the Liberal/Progressive/Conservatives as a "build the peace" initiative would have been civilian repair yards for the pass-through merchant traffic; not building capacity (which they had tons of, since they had stopped warship construction in the home system yards).

Also, it would have been referred to by WH after the Yawata Strike, when he listed the existing Navy capabilities.

Rob

Would he have necessarily listed non-Navy capabilities? If they had been purely civilian yards, they wouldn't necessarily be his to report on or think about. (They may of course also be trivial.)

He wouldn't have. Which was actually my point. But someone called the Basilisk station a "mini-Haephestus," so I just wanted to point out that the HR government and the Janacek admirialty wouldn't have put in a military yard in the first place. Or even a regular civilian construction yard. A repair yard for through-traffic though, would have suited them just fine. If they got huge kickbacks from "cousin Freddie" for the Admiralty building modification, what did they get for a "mini-Haephestus" ?

Rob

JeffEngel wrote:

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:Hephaestus was more than the Navy Yards, it was the largest of the civilian industrial nodes. Any facilities built at Basilisk by the Liberal/Progressive/Conservatives as a "build the peace" initiative would have been civilian repair yards for the pass-through merchant traffic; not building capacity (which they had tons of, since they had stopped warship construction in the home system yards).

Also, it would have been referred to by WH after the Yawata Strike, when he listed the existing Navy capabilities.

Rob

Would he have necessarily listed non-Navy capabilities? If they had been purely civilian yards, they wouldn't necessarily be his to report on or think about. (They may of course also be trivial.)

Nor would he have gotten into it if the naval and industrial recovery staffs did not anticipate using it as a major component of recovery. David has talked about it in direct discussion. There is little if any extraction activity in Basilisk as yet, so although the station that is growing there is "along the lines of" the original home system stations, it remains in the near term focused on servicing and repair.

That has little to do with what it might eventually become in the STRATEGIC expansion and dispersal of naval infrastructure and supporting industry, however. I thought that was what was being discussed in the latter portions of this thread, as opposed to the immediate 'next 2 years' recovery/reconstitution issues, which have been covered pretty darned well in a couple of sections of textev, in MoH and ART.

dreamrider

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:

He wouldn't have. Which was actually my point. But someone called the Basilisk station a "mini-Haephestus," so I just wanted to point out that the HR government and the Janacek admirialty wouldn't have put in a military yard in the first place. Or even a regular civilian construction yard. A repair yard for through-traffic though, would have suited them just fine. If they got huge kickbacks from "cousin Freddie" for the Admiralty building modification, what did they get for a "mini-Haephestus" ?

Rob

The words "Mini Hesphaetus" were David's. He made no reference at the time about what the capabilities of the station were. However, the question he was addressing was specifically concerning post-Yawata strike capabilities and what the status of several 1st war assets were.

David also gave us good details about one of the others asked about - Talbot Station (1 T) was constructing Manty pattern wallers along with Grendlesbane in the 1st war. Cromarty had promised to upgrade Talbot's shipyards, and never did - High Ridge pretty much gave them the Cold Shoulder and never followed through with any tech improvements either, leaving them with ~1905 era Manty technology. Haven negiotated with them prior to the second war so successfully, that they stood neutral instead of coming on Manticore's side. Their shipyard is sitting mostly idle, but has been partly converted to something else.

It has been inferred that Talbot has between 6 and 16 copies of a Sphinx/Gryphon SD in their navy and is currently neutral to all parties.

According to David, one of the last items asked about at the time - Hauptman's Manticore B Pegasus Belt yard - does not exist per se - it is colocated with Weyland, not in the afore mentioned Pegasus Belt, so was also destroyed in the Yawata Strike.

The list of military capabilities and rebuilding resources is FAR from complete - for-ex, Hancock and Marsh are never mentioned as anything more than fleet repair (IIRC, Marsh is never even mentioned). They have trained techs and construction equipment that could have been brought back to assist in rebuilding and repairs, and warehouses of spare parts to support the fleet. While not construction assets in their own right, portions of their assets could be reconstituted to assist in rebuilding the stations.

At the time the earc came out, we had a list online of >20 resources NOT mentioned in the assets discussion. It ranged from the number of repair ships and "space plumbers" required to maintain the space habitats 300 million Manticore B live and work in (all of which survived the Yawata Strike BTW, and have zero to do with shipbuilding or heavy industry) to where all the specialized station workers were really at when the strike happened, and dozens of things in between.

It got a little in depth, because we discussed the number of workers off station on vacations (we used the US average), those who commuted and were off station, Those off work shift and visiting the surface, Intellectual workers who telecommute or were on business trips, workers who were promoted or recently shifted to another profession, the number of tech reps who were on deployed naval ships to fix all the bugs, etc, plus the 100% survival of the Manticore B workforce, and the 40,000 workers returned by the Havenites from Grendlesbane.

Which kind of raises the question as to how the Unicorn yards, now being on a huge orbital station that is a major shipping center and industrial node in orbit around an inhabited planet, are supposed to resemble David's description of them in EoH:

"Don't worry, Commander. We do have a main battery . . . and the first part of it is almost ready to embark. But the Powers That Be felt—correctly, I think—that Minotaur needed a shakedown cruise of her own. That's what we've spent the last two T-months doing while the Hauptman and Jankowski cartels finished building our LACs at Hauptman's Unicorn Yard."

Understanding flickered in the eyes of all three newcomers. The Unicorn Belt was the innermost—and richest—of Manticore-B's three asteroid belts, and the Hauptman Cartel's Gryphon Minerals, Ltd., subsidiary owned about thirty percent of it outright, with long-term leases on another third. The cartel had built enormous extraction centers and smelters to service its mining operations, and there had been persistent rumors even before the war that Hauptman Yards, Ltd., the shipbuilding unit of the mighty cartel, had been using its Unicorn Yard to build experimental Navy units well away from prying eyes. And the Jankowski Cartel, though far smaller than Hauptman's, was highly specialized and a major player in the Navy's R&D operations in its own right.

In fact, Gearman thought, Jankowski's who handled the major share of R&D on adapting the Grayson compensator design for the Fleet, aren't they?

Well, if they have big shipyard complex floating somewhere in Unicorn belt, than we have much more capabilities. If it has let's say 50000 workers it probably work without 10-20% of them for longer period of time and other could be use as teachers to new ones. And Skydomes and Haupmann shouldn't have problems with big expansion of yards and arming them, so they can defend themselves. I know that flying inside asteroid belt is suicide, but it's better to be prepared and don't have nasty surprise.

Space is big. Really, really big. NASA and the ESA have sent multiple spacecraft though the asteroid belts without any issues. We don't have David's magic particle screening either. Last I heard the closest approach of a spacecraft to anything in the asteroid belt was 1200 miles.

The asteroid belt is only significantly dangerous in movies or if you are deliberately trying to hit a rock.

And no, David has explictly said that there is no industry in the asteroid belts. So the 300 million people that live there are apparently all mining asteroids with hammers and shovels. But whatever, the Honorverse's economic assumptions in general don't really hold up if you think about them much, so I don't.

kzt wrote:And no, David has explictly said that there is no industry in the asteroid belts. So the 300 million people that live there are apparently all mining asteroids with hammers and shovels. But whatever, the Honorverse's economic assumptions in general don't really hold up if you think about them much, so I don't.

No, you just point them out again and again.

Actually, to make the economics work, those 300MILLION are all asteroid archeologists. They only use whisk brushes... Shovels and picks would produce too many tons of rock.

Theemile wrote:snip


David also gave us good details about one of the others asked about - Talbot Station (1 T) was constructing Manty pattern wallers along with Grendlesbane in the 1st war. Cromarty had promised to upgrade Talbot's shipyards, and never did - High Ridge pretty much gave them the Cold Shoulder and never followed through with any tech improvements either, leaving them with ~1905 era Manty technology. Haven negiotated with them prior to the second war so successfully, that they stood neutral instead of coming on Manticore's side. Their shipyard is sitting mostly idle, but has been partly converted to something else.

It has been inferred that Talbot has between 6 and 16 copies of a Sphinx/Gryphon SD in their navy and is currently neutral to all parties.

snip

The bolding above is mine. I am going to assume that you are referring to Erewhon, instead of Talbot, since the Talbot sector wasn't important until the discovery of the Lynx wormhole during the Janacek Admiralty.

fallsfromtrees wrote:

Theemile wrote:snip


David also gave us good details about one of the others asked about - Talbot Station (1 T) was constructing Manty pattern wallers along with Grendlesbane in the 1st war. Cromarty had promised to upgrade Talbot's shipyards, and never did - High Ridge pretty much gave them the Cold Shoulder and never followed through with any tech improvements either, leaving them with ~1905 era Manty technology. Haven negiotated with them prior to the second war so successfully, that they stood neutral instead of coming on Manticore's side. Their shipyard is sitting mostly idle, but has been partly converted to something else.

It has been inferred that Talbot has between 6 and 16 copies of a Sphinx/Gryphon SD in their navy and is currently neutral to all parties.

snip

The bolding above is mine. I am going to assume that you are referring to Erewhon, instead of Talbot, since the Talbot sector wasn't important until the discovery of the Lynx wormhole during the Janacek Admiralty.

Nope, he's referring to the system called "Talbot", a single system member of the Manticoran Alliance during the first war.

It's mentioned in The Short Victorious War as having a "powerful base" and in Flag in Exile "the Manty yards in Grendelsbane and Talbot". It's also the system where Rob Pierre's son had his unfortunate encounter with Bellerophon - 4 Peep BCs don't live long when the accidentally jump a DN rather than a CA.

Totally different than the later (and confusingly similarly named) Talbott Quadrant. The System has only 2 trailing 't' while the Quadrant has 2 't's; hence Theemile's emphasis on "(1 T)".


Erewhon had wallers of it's own, but IIRC they were modified Solarian Designs, not Manty ones.