The SLN commerce raiding strategy WILL work.

Yes but you have posted on the many threads dealing with using captured SLN vessels quoting RFC in noting that they have no use in modern fleets IE: The Ships That Shall Not Be Named TSTSNBN along with Frigates.

Poker

Duckk wrote:

Duckk,
On the forum, I had taken that to refer to the captured SLN units being used by the SEM, not the ones still available to the SLN.
It underlines the lack of workable options facing the League.

...Huh? I haven't posted in this topic until this post.

Eagleeye wrote:To kill someone/something, you have to know (at least approximately), where he/she/it is ... Yeah, old-style Solly-SDs are built for energy-range-fighting. But even if you built a SD with so much Grasers/Lasers that he looks like a hedgehog - if you don't know where your target is, your energy weapons are useless.

And the 2nd point is - Scientists and Vegas are not build for the kind of battle, that LACs are fighting. Because, for a long time, LACs were regarded as totally useless for any 1st-class-navy (and that was true enough, until Sonja Hemphill and Shannon Foraker and her respective teams came around the corner with some brilliant ideas), so the energy weapons (and the software and doctrine to using them) are designed to fight against other SDs - not against so agile and evasive targets as modern LACs with superior stealth and a graser nearly as powerful as the grasers of the Sollie-SDs themselves.

Yes, if a Solly-SD-Graser hits a LAC, that LAC is toast. But I think, the chance of hits is very small (1 hit in 30 trials, or maybe - if you have a SD with a very good crew - 1 hit in 20 trials). And the grasers of modern LACs are nearly as good as the Solly-SD-grasers ... it should be a slug feast for the LACs.

By the way, and now, that I think of it - the armor of the SLN isn't as good as the armor of the RMN, too ...

From textev in Echoes of Honor, at First Hancock Trumans' LAC's were able (under stealth) to approach within one light second of Admiral Kellet's BB's.

Assuming that Sollie sensors are not a lot better, I could see a couple of squadrons of LAC's defending one of the Talbott systems spot, say, 20 ISLN SD's, accelerate out to probable detection level and go stealth until they get a "down the throat" shot, take that, accelerate through the Sollie formation and take another shot down the other open aspect (remember, Sollies know nothing about bow/stern wedges yet). Then continue to accelerate outward away from the confused (and bruised) ISLN towards the outer system, where you can conduct raids under stealth (albeit with the Sollies alert, probably more risky) while awating reinforcements.

30 or 40 Shrikes and/or Ferrets probably can't kill 20 SD's of any Navy...but they can sure get one hell of a punch in and still run for it.

We shall see.

Hutch wrote:

Eagleeye wrote:To kill someone/something, you have to know (at least approximately), where he/she/it is ... Yeah, old-style Solly-SDs are built for energy-range-fighting. But even if you built a SD with so much Grasers/Lasers that he looks like a hedgehog - if you don't know where your target is, your energy weapons are useless.

And the 2nd point is - Scientists and Vegas are not build for the kind of battle, that LACs are fighting. Because, for a long time, LACs were regarded as totally useless for any 1st-class-navy (and that was true enough, until Sonja Hemphill and Shannon Foraker and her respective teams came around the corner with some brilliant ideas), so the energy weapons (and the software and doctrine to using them) are designed to fight against other SDs - not against so agile and evasive targets as modern LACs with superior stealth and a graser nearly as powerful as the grasers of the Sollie-SDs themselves.

Yes, if a Solly-SD-Graser hits a LAC, that LAC is toast. But I think, the chance of hits is very small (1 hit in 30 trials, or maybe - if you have a SD with a very good crew - 1 hit in 20 trials). And the grasers of modern LACs are nearly as good as the Solly-SD-grasers ... it should be a slug feast for the LACs.

By the way, and now, that I think of it - the armor of the SLN isn't as good as the armor of the RMN, too ...

From textev in Echoes of Honor, at First Hancock Trumans' LAC's were able (under stealth) to approach within one light second of Admiral Kellet's BB's.

Assuming that Sollie sensors are not a lot better, I could see a couple of squadrons of LAC's defending one of the Talbott systems spot, say, 20 ISLN SD's, accelerate out to probable detection level and go stealth until they get a "down the throat" shot, take that, accelerate through the Sollie formation and take another shot down the other open aspect (remember, Sollies know nothing about bow/stern wedges yet). Then continue to accelerate outward away from the confused (and bruised) ISLN towards the outer system, where you can conduct raids under stealth (albeit with the Sollies alert, probably more risky) while awating reinforcements.

30 or 40 Shrikes and/or Ferrets probably can't kill 20 SD's of any Navy...but they can sure get one hell of a punch in and still run for it.

We shall see.

I'd start the attack with an MDM launch and time my strike to hit maybe 60 seconds after the MDM strike. all the survivors will be focused forward, and any wounded birds will be easier pickings - and damaged sensors will help mask the attack.

Eagleeye wrote:To kill someone/something, you have to know (at least approximately), where he/she/it is ... Yeah, old-style Solly-SDs are built for energy-range-fighting. But even if you built a SD with so much Grasers/Lasers that he looks like a hedgehog - if you don't know where your target is, your energy weapons are useless.

Granted. But several things to consider: At Hancock, the LACs were able to get as close as they could because noone on the havenite side of things even thought to look for them. They were able to generate complete surprise because the Havenite forces were completely unaware of their existance.
The same is not true for SLN commanders at this point.

And the 2nd point is - Scientists and Vegas are not build for the kind of battle, that LACs are fighting. Because, for a long time, LACs were regarded as totally useless for any 1st-class-navy (and that was true enough, until Sonja Hemphill and Shannon Foraker and her respective teams came around the corner with some brilliant ideas), so the energy weapons (and the software and doctrine to using them) are designed to fight against other SDs - not against so agile and evasive targets as modern LACs with superior stealth and a graser nearly as powerful as the grasers of the Sollie-SDs themselves.

Hang on, what? Last I checked, a Shrike's graser was Battlecruiser-grade, not SD-grade. Which is of course an immense upgrade in terms of firepower, but still something that SDs are built to withstand a lot of. As for the weapons not being built to engage small, fast targets: Well, considering the already insane accuracy Honorverse energy weapons routinely achieve, I find it difficult to believe that they would be drastically impaired by their target's fleetness. Especially considering that, in some navies at least, main energy mounts can work as supplemental missile defense.

Yes, if a Solly-SD-Graser hits a LAC, that LAC is toast. But I think, the chance of hits is very small (1 hit in 30 trials, or maybe - if you have a SD with a very good crew - 1 hit in 20 trials). And the grasers of modern LACs are nearly as good as the Solly-SD-grasers ... it should be a slug feast for the LACs.

I am unsure of this assertion that LAC grasers are as good as Solly SD grasers. It seems to me that main energy mounts have seen far less of an evolution than missiles have (not surprisingly), what we've seen is modern navies building ships that have fewer, but more powerful energy mounts.

By the way, and now, that I think of it - the armor of the SLN isn't as good as the armor of the RMN, too ...

It's still SD armor though. It's still built to withstand enormous punishment on scales only other Wallers can hand out. There's no doubt that an LAC wing can kill a waller if it concentrates on it. But in the meantime, said waller and its consorts and escorts will kill a lot of LACs in return.

Duckk wrote:

Duckk,
On the forum, I had taken that to refer to the captured SLN units being used by the SEM, not the ones still available to the SLN.
It underlines the lack of workable options facing the League.

...Huh? I haven't posted in this topic until this post.

It's because of this:

**************
Duckk wrote:Since the idea of using the SLN ships has come and gone for several years now, I thought I'd solicit David's comments on this topic:
<snip>
As far as weapons platforms go, they’re pretty useless
**************

that Theemile has as his sig line in all his posts.

And the Monitor was designed to stand up to 11 inch shells it fired. Wonder how it would have done against a WW1 10 inch armor piercing.

Again not saying this is a tactic to plan for. It is not. Nor is it a complete death sentence either. "Death Ride" damn skippy. But if it is all you got not like the LACs can leave the system anyway. well unless there are CLACs around which there won't be if we are talking system defense very much doubtful for convoy protection.

Have fun,
T2M

The E wrote:...snip...

It's still SD armor though. It's still built to withstand enormous punishment on scales only other Wallers can hand out. There's no doubt that an LAC wing can kill a waller if it concentrates on it. But in the meantime, said waller and its consorts and escorts will kill a lot of LACs in return.

The E wrote:

Eagleeye wrote:That's definitely true for any modern waller, but for Scientists/Vegas, as used in Battlefleet? There is textev in MoH which seems to indicate otherwise:

Point is, getting into energy range of any SD is supremely dangerous for LACs. For one, while Shrikes carry a lot more punch than any previous LAC class in an energy duel, an SD can take that damage and laugh about it. Remember, the old SDs were built and optimized for energy-range combat, with missiles only an afterthought; as such, I would expect even a comparatively obsolete class like the Scientist to be able to fight off an LAC swarm quite handily. All the advantages modern LACs have, all the stealth and maneuverability they can bring to bear, won't matter all that much against a waller in energy range.

Hmm, nothing in the quote about the 'interesting tactical possibilities' says she was contemplating an straight up energy range duel; Shrikes vs Vegas.

It just as easily could have been thinking about using the Ferrets' stealth and accel to put a wing or two where they can punch a missile swarm down the open ends of the wedge. That won't kill the SD, but given their sub-par missile defense it seems to have an decent chance of getting contact nukes through, which would shred their sensors and surface emplacements.

And given the also SLNs weak missile loadouts the Ferrets shouldn't be at that much risk in a missile duel with SLN SDs.


Even the nukes on LAC missiles can't kill an SD, but they can blind it. Then once the Ferrets blind the SDs the Shrikes can move in and use their upgraded grasers to finish the job (if the units won't surrender first)



Since that's just off the top of my head, it's just one random example of a possible LAC vs SLN SD tactic that tries not to play to the SDs strengths.

MaxxQ wrote:It's because of this:

**************
Duckk wrote:Since the idea of using the SLN ships has come and gone for several years now, I thought I'd solicit David's comments on this topic:
<snip>
As far as weapons platforms go, they’re pretty useless
**************

that Theemile has as his sig line in all his posts.

Since so many people won't let the "I have a great use for the captured SDs" topic die, I decided I won't let the authorial response die

Eagleeye wrote:To kill someone/something, you have to know (at least approximately), where he/she/it is ... Yeah, old-style Solly-SDs are built for energy-range-fighting. But even if you built a SD with so much Grasers/Lasers that he looks like a hedgehog - if you don't know where your target is, your energy weapons are useless.

At energy range you can optically see the target. All the jammers and such are pretty much completely useless when you can visually aim at the target. It's having an attack helicopter battalion land and everyone charge the Zulu hordes on foot with their survival knives drawn.

Armor piercing capability is proportional to section density multiplied by impact velocity squared.

The Monitor's 11" guns fired stumpy, low velocity projectiles. The later 10" guns were far more powerful.

thinkstoomuch wrote:And the Monitor was designed to stand up to 11 inch shells it fired. Wonder how it would have done against a WW1 10 inch armor piercing.

Again not saying this is a tactic to plan for. It is not. Nor is it a complete death sentence either. "Death Ride" damn skippy. But if it is all you got not like the LACs can leave the system anyway. well unless there are CLACs around which there won't be if we are talking system defense very much doubtful for convoy protection.

Have fun,
T2M

The E wrote:...snip...

It's still SD armor though. It's still built to withstand enormous punishment on scales only other Wallers can hand out. There's no doubt that an LAC wing can kill a waller if it concentrates on it. But in the meantime, said waller and its consorts and escorts will kill a lot of LACs in return.