Caslet.....

hanuman wrote:
SNIP

Besides, what everyone is forgetting here is that Haven's government/Congress CANNOT pardon Caslet. I stand by my viewpoint that there will be little public or political opposition to granting him a visitor's visa so that he can visit any surviving family in the Republic.

However, he is no longer a Havenite citizen. Legally, a government cannot pardon a citizen of another star nation. It's just not done. Firstly, because no government has the legal authority to make legal pronouncements about an individual who does not fall under its legal or political jurisdiction. And secondly, because it would be a major faux pas to interfere in the legal jurisdiction of another star nation - especially a star nation it is now allied with.

Not so.

A nation can, indeed, pardon a citizen of another nation so long as the pardon is for crimes committed (or alleged to have been committed) against the nation issuing the pardon. The US President, for example, could not issue a pardon to a British citizen accused of or convicted of crimes against Great Britain but could pardon a British citizen accused of or convicted of crimes against the United States.

Thus if Pritchart decided that she wanted to issue a presidential pardon to Caslet (which I am not saying --- at this time --- I'm planning on hger doing) for any "crimes" committed against the People's Republic during or after Honor's escape from StateSec custody, she would be entirely within her rights under both the Havenite Constitution and interstellar law. By the same token, the only star nation under whose laws he could be considered guilty of treason or desertion would be Haven's, and she could pardon him for either of those offenses, as well.

runsforcelery wrote:

hanuman wrote:
SNIP

Besides, what everyone is forgetting here is that Haven's government/Congress CANNOT pardon Caslet. I stand by my viewpoint that there will be little public or political opposition to granting him a visitor's visa so that he can visit any surviving family in the Republic.

However, he is no longer a Havenite citizen. Legally, a government cannot pardon a citizen of another star nation. It's just not done. Firstly, because no government has the legal authority to make legal pronouncements about an individual who does not fall under its legal or political jurisdiction. And secondly, because it would be a major faux pas to interfere in the legal jurisdiction of another star nation - especially a star nation it is now allied with.

Not so.

A nation can, indeed, pardon a citizen of another nation so long as the pardon is for crimes committed (or alleged to have been committed) against the nation issuing the pardon. The US President, for example, could not issue a pardon to a British citizen accused of or convicted of crimes against Great Britain but could pardon a British citizen accused of or convicted of crimes against the United States.

Thus if Pritchart decided that she wanted to issue a presidential pardon to Caslet (which I am not saying --- at this time --- I'm planning on hger doing) for any "crimes" committed against the People's Republic during or after Honor's escape from StateSec custody, she would be entirely within her rights under both the Havenite Constitution and interstellar law. By the same token, the only star nation under whose laws he could be considered guilty of treason or desertion would be Haven's, and she could pardon him for either of those offenses, as well.

That's very interesting, Sir. Thank you for the correction...

Weird Harold wrote:

hanuman wrote:...then there's a definite case that they too committed treason against Haven.

"Treason never prospers. For if it prospers, none dare call it treason." -- Ben Franklin(?)

Or another Franklin quote

"We must all hang together, or surely we shall all hang separately"

The winners in a conflict are heros and statesmen.
The losers are subject to trial or judgement.

stewart wrote:The winners in a conflict are heros and statesmen.

The losers are subject to trial or judgement.

But what do you do when the fight is a draw?

Caslet, Yu, Parnell, and other defectors, are in Limbo with Haven because although Manticore could have defeated them outright, or Haven could have taken advantage of the Yawata Strike to defeat Manticore outright, neither did so. Caslet and Yu are now allies, but they have raised arms against their homeland.

Pres Pritchard should probably proclaim a blanket amnesty for all former Havenites declaring that Haven will not prosecute them for "acts of conscience."

Weird Harold wrote:Pres Pritchard should probably proclaim a blanket amnesty for all former Havenites declaring that Haven will not prosecute them for "acts of conscience."

That's crazy. Many former Havenites are ex-SS types or supporters of previous regimes.

That's the issue with blanket amnesties - it covers the bad guys as well as the good ones.

Weird Harold wrote:Haven could have taken advantage of the Yawata Strike to defeat Manticore outright, neither did so.

What? There was no time after the Battle of Manticore that Haven could have defeated Manticore outright. They had Apollo and Haven did not. Manticore lost a lot of construction in progress and its long term missile supply in the Yawata Strike, but the 200+ Apollo-equipped Invictuses of the Python lump were complete and fully armed before said strike, and way more than sufficient to defeat the entire RHN.

Weird Harold wrote:

stewart wrote:The winners in a conflict are heros and statesmen.

The losers are subject to trial or judgement.

But what do you do when the fight is a draw?

Caslet, Yu, Parnell, and other defectors, are in Limbo with Haven because although Manticore could have defeated them outright, or Haven could have taken advantage of the Yawata Strike to defeat Manticore outright, neither did so. Caslet and Yu are now allies, but they have raised arms against their homeland.

Pres Pritchard should probably proclaim a blanket amnesty for all former Havenites declaring that Haven will not prosecute them for "acts of conscience."

They are not in limbo. They are citizens of other star nations now. That's not limbo.

munroburton wrote:That's the issue with blanket amnesties - it covers the bad guys as well as the good ones.

That's why I specified "acts of conscience." Murder, torture, and other crimes against humanity aren't covered by "act of conscience."

drothgery wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:Haven could have taken advantage of the Yawata Strike to defeat Manticore outright, neither did so.

What? There was no time after the Battle of Manticore that Haven could have defeated Manticore outright. They had Apollo and Haven did not. Manticore lost a lot of construction in progress and its long term missile supply in the Yawata Strike, but the 200+ Apollo-equipped Invictuses of the Python lump were complete and fully armed before said strike, and way more than sufficient to defeat the entire RHN.

This is true. But there was a problem. Had they been forced to confront Haven, they could have ended up short on what they needed to deal with the League, or vice-versa.

Don

n7axw wrote:

drothgery wrote:What? There was no time after the Battle of Manticore that Haven could have defeated Manticore outright. They had Apollo and Haven did not. Manticore lost a lot of construction in progress and its long term missile supply in the Yawata Strike, but the 200+ Apollo-equipped Invictuses of the Python lump were complete and fully armed before said strike, and way more than sufficient to defeat the entire RHN.

This is true. But there was a problem. Had they been forced to confront Haven, they could have ended up short on what they needed to deal with the League, or vice-versa.

Don

Maybe. But when the Manties were worried about that it was before they'd realized just how pitiful the SLN defenses really were. How few missiles it would take to swat down BattleFleet.

There's a decent chance that they could have managed to fend off the League's ready forces while taking the battle to Haven. All without running out of missiles.


It wouldn't be fun, but the original concern may have been overly pessimistic.