Honorverse ramblings and musings

I have a thought, but this is one time I hope someone can shake me out of my reverie.

What if treecats really like the taste of a MAlign mind and began bonding with them at alarming rates? What if the treecats like the taste of these minds far more than any ever before? Would they be able to ignore the taste of ice cream? And what if there is something in the MAlign gene tampering that brings out abilities within the bond that even Honor would find miraculous.

I know, I know, RFC would never blaspheme the series this way eh? But you all know my warped mind always pushes the envelope. No matter, warped is simply a matter of relativity.

The treecats aren't pets, they're people. What if they don't have any control over their affinity for MAlign mind glows?

Just like the racist father who forbids his son or daughter to marry a black or a Jew. It doesn't work because love is in the eye of the beholder.

Just asking.

From David:

***

(1) Courvoisier was sent because he was an admiral in the RMN and the primary focus of the mission was to build upon the work Sir Anthony Langtry had already accomplished and acquire not a trade agreement, but a military alliance. The Star Kingdom of Manticore had used flag officers as diplomats for generations, ever since Edward Saganami. A flag officer representing Manticore someplace like Silesia had to be diplomatically astute and sensitive to the Star Kingdom’s military, economic, and diplomatic needs. For that matter, captains of ships independently deployed to Silesia — or to any of a score of other distant star systems — needed that same awareness. So it’s not like picking an admiral as the head of a diplomatic mission, especially after the groundwork had been prepared by a professional diplomat (who was good enough that 20 years later he was the Star Empire of Manticore Foreign Secretary, by the way) was at all unusual — or unwise — on Manticore’s part.



(2-a) Courvoisier didn’t select Houseman as a member of his staff. Houseman was foisted upon him by the Opposition. I thought it was made sufficiently clear in the book that Courvoisier thought his inclusion in the mission was a serious mistake from the beginning, but apparently some people don’t read between the lines very well. Courvoisier's problem wasn't that he'd chosen or selected Houseman; it was tat that until Houseman gave him sufficient cause to cut him off at the knees by violating his specific instructions, domestic political constraints prevented him from doing anything about it.



(2-b) It wasn’t Courvoisier’s insensitivity to Grayson mores that created the problem. He had two equally important mission priorities where cultural mores were concerned. One was to avoid conflicts with Grayson religious beliefs and social concepts to the greatest degree possible. The second, and equally important, however, was to establish from the beginning that Manticore was not going to kowtow to Grayson demands where its own personnel were concerned. If Grayson was going to enter a military alliance with Manticore, then Grayson had to work with female military personnel, and given the interstellar political situation, any alliance needed to hit the ground running. That’s the reason the supporting infrastructure was aboard the freighters when his mission went to Grayson rather than waiting to be dispatched after all the signatures were affixed and the ink had dried.

So, are people suggesting that he ought to have lied to Grayson, at least by implication, by not mentioning the minor fact that 50% or so of Manticore’s military personnel were female? Should he have allowed that “discovery” to come as a shock to military commanders — and their subordinates — who found themselves in an Allied command structure, quite possibly with female officers senior to them, only after the missiles had started flying? Or should he have said to them, in effect, “This is the way it is. If our different attitudes towards equality mean we can’t enter into a military alliance, one in which people may well have to die together — not a trade agreement, not a commercial treaty, not a deal to sell computers or air cars, not most favored star nation status, but a military alliance against the second most powerful navy in the galaxy, live or die — then we need to know it now. So it’s cards-on-the-table time.”

That is, in fact, the message he was sent to deliver. Now, he was supposed to do it without getting any further into the Graysons’ faces than he had to, and that was precisely the discussion he had with his female personnel before they reached Grayson. He was not prepared to compromise that portion of the message by allowing Grayson to believe Manticore would allow Grayson’s parochial attitudes to compromise the efficiency of its own military operations. Moreover, when the “cultural insensitivity” of one side or the other became an issue, it was Graysons whose insensitivity to the people offering them not just military alliance, not just security against Masada, but modern technology which would utterly transform their economy and their life expectancies, which drove the conflict.



(3) I believe the above sufficiently disposes of the absurdity — in my opinion — of the idea that sending female commanders with female crewmembers (as in crews which included personnel which were female, not crews which were all female) was a mistake. It was, in fact, a primary portion of the original mission plan. The position of the Cromarty Government and of Queen Elizabeth was that there wasn’t time, especially after the events of Basilisk Station, for a lot of pussyfooting. As I say, Sir Anthony Langtry had been the ambassador to Grayson for some time, and it’s not like the mission went in entirely cold. There were difficulties on both sides where the simple inability to fully understand how different the starting points of the cultural and religious aspects of their societies were collided. That was, in fact, rather a point of the book, and God only knows how many times and in how many places societies right here on Earth have interacted catastrophically, often despite good intentions, because of the failure to accept that sometimes, “the other” truly is “the other.”



The extent to which the mission to Grayson was a “catastrophe” wasn’t because of anything Courvoisier did, nor did it fail simply because of a clash of cultures or a lack of relativistic sophistication insensitivity on Manticore’s part. Maccabeus was in place to assassinate Benjamin and Michael Mayhew and take over the Protectorate as the result of a generational conspiracy between the Grayson Faithful and Masada, not because of something that blew up only after Grayson found it difficult to deal with Honor Harrington’s presence. The availability of a Havenite capital ship in Masadan service is what caused Masada to issue the go-ahead order for Maccabeus’ coup attempt, and that order had been given before Courvoisier ever arrived in the star system. The Masadans were lying to Alfredo Yu, their own “outside expert” military commander, about their plans because Maccabeus was their hole card. The ambush of the Grayson Navy was supposed to create the window which would allow him to act. Only the fact that Courvoisier took a Manticoran destroyer out with the Grayson Navy meant that (1) a portion of the GSN survived and (2) the Masadan Navy was gutted. That wouldn’t have been enough, had it not been for the Masadan desire to rely on Maccabeus in order to acquire the “legitimacy” of a Grayson government that hadn’t been imposed externally, because that desire was the real reason they used Thunder of God to transport LACs from Masada to Grayson instead of simply getting on with it before Honor was able to return.



Had Honor not pulled Fearless and the other two ships of her squadron out, Maccabeus probably wouldn’t have acted, at which point the Masadans would have had to fish or cut bait: either use Thunder of God to smash the Manticoran squadron, which would force them into the Havenite alliance, or else pass up the opportunity and rely upon God and time to give them another, better chance. Honor had no idea that there was a modern battlecruiser and light cruiser in Masadan service. She felt that her presence, and the fact that she was female — and the fact that she, in particular, was being portrayed as a homicidal maniac over what had happened on Basilisk Station by the Havenite ambassador to Grayson, thus “validating” every Grayson prejudice against the notion of women in uniform — was preventing Courvoisier from succeeding in his mission. When he hesitated about approving her decision to remove herself — temporarily; there was never any possibility of her permanently removing herself – from the equation, it was because doing so worked against the portion of his mission orders focused on making the reality of female Manticoran military personnel amply clear to Grayson as a precondition for a workable military alliance. When he decided to endorse her decision, it wasn’t simply because of his affection for her, either. It was because as the “officer on the spot,” leading the delegation, he wasn’t certain that she was wrong. Wasn’t certain that the “breather space” she was offering him wasn’t what he needed to get the stalled negotiations moving forward once more.



In the end, Honor turned out to be right, if not for all the right reasons. Her departure from Grayson is what shamed Bernard Yanakov into stepping beyond the limitations of his own rearing. But please note that Yanakov himself tells Courvoisier that one of the reasons he’s doing that — moving beyond those limitations — is because that’s what Protector Benjamin wants him to do. In other words, it’s not simply a matter of his having been brought face-to-face with the limitations of his own upbringing, although that is a part of it, but also of a military officer attempting to do his duty.



And, likewise in the end, the mission to Grayson was anything but “a catastrophe.” The price paid by both Grayson and Manticore for that alliance in blood and lives was high. It was probably lower than the price that would’ve been paid if Masada had allowed Alfredo Yu a free hand, but it was bad enough. On the other hand, it created an alliance which was actually closer and much more valuable to both sides than either side had anticipated it could be prior to the Battle of Yeltsin.

cthia wrote:I have a thought, but this is one time I hope someone can shake me out of my reverie.

What if treecats really like the taste of a MAlign mind and began bonding with them at alarming rates? What if the treecats like the taste of these minds far more than any ever before? Would they be able to ignore the taste of ice cream? And what if there is something in the MAlign gene tampering that brings out abilities within the bond that even Honor would find miraculous.

I know, I know, RFC would never blaspheme the series this way eh? But you all know my warped mind always pushes the envelope. No matter, warped is simply a matter of relativity.

The treecats aren't pets, they're people. What if they don't have any control over their affinity for MAlign mind glows?

Just like the racist father who forbids his son or daughter to marry a black or a Jew. It doesn't work because love is in the eye of the beholder.

Just asking.

But treecats do have control over their bond /confused
They can't control the initial formation of the bond but as you say they are people, not just pets. They can (and in very rare circumstances have) repudiated their bonded human and refused to be with them any more.

Duckk wrote:From David:

***

(1) Courvoisier was sent because he was an admiral in the RMN and the primary focus of the mission was to build upon the work Sir Anthony Langtry had already accomplished and acquire not a trade agreement, but a military alliance. The Star Kingdom of Manticore had used flag officers as diplomats for generations, ever since Edward Saganami. A flag officer representing Manticore someplace like Silesia had to be diplomatically astute and sensitive to the Star Kingdom’s military, economic, and diplomatic needs. For that matter, captains of ships independently deployed to Silesia — or to any of a score of other distant star systems — needed that same awareness. So it’s not like picking an admiral as the head of a diplomatic mission, especially after the groundwork had been prepared by a professional diplomat (who was good enough that 20 years later he was the Star Empire of Manticore Foreign Secretary, by the way) was at all unusual — or unwise — on Manticore’s part.



(2-a) Courvoisier didn’t select Houseman as a member of his staff. Houseman was foisted upon him by the Opposition. I thought it was made sufficiently clear in the book that Courvoisier thought his inclusion in the mission was a serious mistake from the beginning, but apparently some people don’t read between the lines very well. Courvoisier's problem wasn't that he'd chosen or selected Houseman; it was tat that until Houseman gave him sufficient cause to cut him off at the knees by violating his specific instructions, domestic political constraints prevented him from doing anything about it.



(2-b) It wasn’t Courvoisier’s insensitivity to Grayson mores that created the problem. He had two equally important mission priorities where cultural mores were concerned. One was to avoid conflicts with Grayson religious beliefs and social concepts to the greatest degree possible. The second, and equally important, however, was to establish from the beginning that Manticore was not going to kowtow to Grayson demands where its own personnel were concerned. If Grayson was going to enter a military alliance with Manticore, then Grayson had to work with female military personnel, and given the interstellar political situation, any alliance needed to hit the ground running. That’s the reason the supporting infrastructure was aboard the freighters when his mission went to Grayson rather than waiting to be dispatched after all the signatures were affixed and the ink had dried.

So, are people suggesting that he ought to have lied to Grayson, at least by implication, by not mentioning the minor fact that 50% or so of Manticore’s military personnel were female? Should he have allowed that “discovery” to come as a shock to military commanders — and their subordinates — who found themselves in an Allied command structure, quite possibly with female officers senior to them, only after the missiles had started flying? Or should he have said to them, in effect, “This is the way it is. If our different attitudes towards equality mean we can’t enter into a military alliance, one in which people may well have to die together — not a trade agreement, not a commercial treaty, not a deal to sell computers or air cars, not most favored star nation status, but a military alliance against the second most powerful navy in the galaxy, live or die — then we need to know it now. So it’s cards-on-the-table time.”

That is, in fact, the message he was sent to deliver. Now, he was supposed to do it without getting any further into the Graysons’ faces than he had to, and that was precisely the discussion he had with his female personnel before they reached Grayson. He was not prepared to compromise that portion of the message by allowing Grayson to believe Manticore would allow Grayson’s parochial attitudes to compromise the efficiency of its own military operations. Moreover, when the “cultural insensitivity” of one side or the other became an issue, it was Graysons whose insensitivity to the people offering them not just military alliance, not just security against Masada, but modern technology which would utterly transform their economy and their life expectancies, which drove the conflict.



(3) I believe the above sufficiently disposes of the absurdity — in my opinion — of the idea that sending female commanders with female crewmembers (as in crews which included personnel which were female, not crews which were all female) was a mistake. It was, in fact, a primary portion of the original mission plan. The position of the Cromarty Government and of Queen Elizabeth was that there wasn’t time, especially after the events of Basilisk Station, for a lot of pussyfooting. As I say, Sir Anthony Langtry had been the ambassador to Grayson for some time, and it’s not like the mission went in entirely cold. There were difficulties on both sides where the simple inability to fully understand how different the starting points of the cultural and religious aspects of their societies were collided. That was, in fact, rather a point of the book, and God only knows how many times and in how many places societies right here on Earth have interacted catastrophically, often despite good intentions, because of the failure to accept that sometimes, “the other” truly is “the other.”



The extent to which the mission to Grayson was a “catastrophe” wasn’t because of anything Courvoisier did, nor did it fail simply because of a clash of cultures or a lack of relativistic sophistication insensitivity on Manticore’s part. Maccabeus was in place to assassinate Benjamin and Michael Mayhew and take over the Protectorate as the result of a generational conspiracy between the Grayson Faithful and Masada, not because of something that blew up only after Grayson found it difficult to deal with Honor Harrington’s presence. The availability of a Havenite capital ship in Masadan service is what caused Masada to issue the go-ahead order for Maccabeus’ coup attempt, and that order had been given before Courvoisier ever arrived in the star system. The Masadans were lying to Alfredo Yu, their own “outside expert” military commander, about their plans because Maccabeus was their hole card. The ambush of the Grayson Navy was supposed to create the window which would allow him to act. Only the fact that Courvoisier took a Manticoran destroyer out with the Grayson Navy meant that (1) a portion of the GSN survived and (2) the Masadan Navy was gutted. That wouldn’t have been enough, had it not been for the Masadan desire to rely on Maccabeus in order to acquire the “legitimacy” of a Grayson government that hadn’t been imposed externally, because that desire was the real reason they used Thunder of God to transport LACs from Masada to Grayson instead of simply getting on with it before Honor was able to return.



Had Honor not pulled Fearless and the other two ships of her squadron out, Maccabeus probably wouldn’t have acted, at which point the Masadans would have had to fish or cut bait: either use Thunder of God to smash the Manticoran squadron, which would force them into the Havenite alliance, or else pass up the opportunity and rely upon God and time to give them another, better chance. Honor had no idea that there was a modern battlecruiser and light cruiser in Masadan service. She felt that her presence, and the fact that she was female — and the fact that she, in particular, was being portrayed as a homicidal maniac over what had happened on Basilisk Station by the Havenite ambassador to Grayson, thus “validating” every Grayson prejudice against the notion of women in uniform — was preventing Courvoisier from succeeding in his mission. When he hesitated about approving her decision to remove herself — temporarily; there was never any possibility of her permanently removing herself – from the equation, it was because doing so worked against the portion of his mission orders focused on making the reality of female Manticoran military personnel amply clear to Grayson as a precondition for a workable military alliance. When he decided to endorse her decision, it wasn’t simply because of his affection for her, either. It was because as the “officer on the spot,” leading the delegation, he wasn’t certain that she was wrong. Wasn’t certain that the “breather space” she was offering him wasn’t what he needed to get the stalled negotiations moving forward once more.



In the end, Honor turned out to be right, if not for all the right reasons. Her departure from Grayson is what shamed Bernard Yanakov into stepping beyond the limitations of his own rearing. But please note that Yanakov himself tells Courvoisier that one of the reasons he’s doing that — moving beyond those limitations — is because that’s what Protector Benjamin wants him to do. In other words, it’s not simply a matter of his having been brought face-to-face with the limitations of his own upbringing, although that is a part of it, but also of a military officer attempting to do his duty.



And, likewise in the end, the mission to Grayson was anything but “a catastrophe.” The price paid by both Grayson and Manticore for that alliance in blood and lives was high. It was probably lower than the price that would’ve been paid if Masada had allowed Alfredo Yu a free hand, but it was bad enough. On the other hand, it created an alliance which was actually closer and much more valuable to both sides than either side had anticipated it could be prior to the Battle of Yeltsin.

As I noted previously.

Should we point out that General MacArthur became more or less the dictator of modern Japan right after World War II? By the way, almost all thought he did a great job there. He also forced many changes.

Here is another "what if" (as if we don't get enough of these.)

Suppose for a moment that the things that led up to Manticore and Grayson reaching out to each other hadn't happened or had happened differently and there was not going to be a Manticoran mission to Grayson.

Where does that leave Grayson vis-à-vis needing an ally to defend against both Masada and not-linked-with-Masada Haven with both Masada and Grayson sitting smack dab in the middle of an obvious invasion route from Haven space to Manticore and every indication war was coming?

Where does Protector Benjamin turn to for assistance if Grayson isn't going to be gobbled up by Haven or nuked into submission by Masada?

One possibility ... The Solarian League Office of Frontier Security. Would the OFS "offer he can't refuse" be any more palatable than the one Haven would offer?

Or would it be a coin flip with either being preferable to getting nuked by the fanatics from Masada?

Talk about a crap sandwich.

robert132 wrote:
One possibility ... The Solarian League Office of Frontier Security. Would the OFS "offer he can't refuse" be any more palatable than the one Haven would offer?

Or would it be a coin flip with either being preferable to getting nuked by the fanatics from Masada?

Talk about a crap sandwich.

I suspect that either would be preferred to Masada. OFS doesn't have the crazy theocracy of the 'Revolution" so they would be more left alone.

Kind of like what a friend found when he talked to people who had lived both under Hitler or Stalin. The Nazis were much easier as long as you were not a "subhuman" or actively plotting against them. The communists were the ultimate "we are from the government and we want to hurt you", with quotas of traitors and wreckers to find and make examples of, plus arbitrary rules that changed at whim. So it didn't matter what you did the communists might well drag you out into the street and shoot you and your kids because they were short of actual guerillas that week. Now if you were a Jew then the whole equation changed, and the Nazis defined Jew pretty liberally.

robert132 wrote:Where does Protector Benjamin turn to for assistance if Grayson isn't going to be gobbled up by Haven or nuked into submission by Masada?

One possibility ... The Solarian League Office of Frontier Security. Would the OFS "offer he can't refuse" be any more palatable than the one Haven would offer?

Grayson is so far beyond the part of the Verge that OFS is exploiting, and so little obvious profit motive, I'm not sure you could get them to bother to intervien.

It would certainly change things in very ...interesting... ways if there was an FF tripwire squadron parked in Yeltsin, smack dab between the two sides. Probably make it a lot harder for the League Navy to totally dismiss the reports of military breakthroughs in the Haven sector.

OTOH it's pretty clear that OFS and the Transtellars are too short-term motivated to really invest in the systems they oversee - preferring to take what they can get now rather than boost their economy for a bit and get a lot more later. So Grayson wouldn't be getting the economic incentives or the industrial base boost that Manticore provided. The major difference between Haven and OFS is that OFS doesn't seem like they'd end up exporting a dolist broken welfare state, and would be more overt about ending the sovereignty Grayson had over itself.

Jonathan_S wrote:

robert132 wrote:Where does Protector Benjamin turn to for assistance if Grayson isn't going to be gobbled up by Haven or nuked into submission by Masada?

One possibility ... The Solarian League Office of Frontier Security. Would the OFS "offer he can't refuse" be any more palatable than the one Haven would offer?

Grayson is so far beyond the part of the Verge that OFS is exploiting, and so little obvious profit motive, I'm not sure you could get them to bother to intervien.

It would certainly change things in very ...interesting... ways if there was an FF tripwire squadron parked in Yeltsin, smack dab between the two sides. Probably make it a lot harder for the League Navy to totally dismiss the reports of military breakthroughs in the Haven sector.

OTOH it's pretty clear that OFS and the Transtellars are too short-term motivated to really invest in the systems they oversee - preferring to take what they can get now rather than boost their economy for a bit and get a lot more later. So Grayson wouldn't be getting the economic incentives or the industrial base boost that Manticore provided. The major difference between Haven and OFS is that OFS doesn't seem like they'd end up exporting a dolist broken welfare state, and would be more overt about ending the sovereignty Grayson had over itself.

I always thought that Grayson did its homework and chose the lesser of the secular evils. Protector Benjamin had benefit of offworld education. He attended Harvard University on Old Earth. He was not out of touch with modern humanity. I would assume that he felt more of an inclination towards Manticore because they do have religious affiliations and seem to have principles and go out of their way to adhere to those principles.

Haven did not seem to have any morals, scruples, values, principles and I don't recall mention of any religion on Haven. Must have been something else I slept through. Besides, with the Committee of Public Safety and the People's Commissioners, there was no room, or need, for a God. They were God.

A Godless system would have totally rubbed the Graysons the wrong way. Having attended Harvard for a number of years and seen how corrupt and Sodom and Gomorrah like the League has become probably didn't exactly endear him to the League either.

Hi Jonathan_S,

Right again. as usual.

Treecats are attracted to rational positive attitude intelligent people, because that's what 'the people' are.

They are not attracted to irrational psycho's, ie MAlign types, however clever or brilliant as the various short stories and textev demonstrate, so Cthia should stop his claimed worrying.

The MAlign hasn't a clue what makes the treecats tick, let alone any idea concerning mind glows or the empathic senses [transmitter and receiver etc] or how to create them, which he admits RFC isn't go to let them do in the first place.

Their deceit has never fooled the treecats, but it was only personal before Yawata, now the whole species is on the prowl.

Once the treecats can 'interview' MAlign agents, their mind glow signature will be made known to all treecats, along with with probable connections with past incidents which will become obvious and more of the MAlign plan ferreted out (I realize treecats look a lot like ferrets but bear with me), though we may have to wait for the next story arc for more details.

With all the other things to worry about, this is not one of them.

Keep smiling,

L

Jonathan_S wrote:

cthia wrote:I have a thought, but this is one time I hope someone can shake me out of my reverie.

What if treecats really like the taste of a MAlign mind and began bonding with them at alarming rates? What if the treecats like the taste of these minds far more than any ever before? Would they be able to ignore the taste of ice cream? And what if there is something in the MAlign gene tampering that brings out abilities within the bond that even Honor would find miraculous.

I know, I know, RFC would never blaspheme the series this way eh? But you all know my warped mind always pushes the envelope. No matter, warped is simply a matter of relativity.

The treecats aren't pets, they're people. What if they don't have any control over their affinity for MAlign mind glows?

Just like the racist father who forbids his son or daughter to marry a black or a Jew. It doesn't work because love is in the eye of the beholder.

Just asking.

But treecats do have control over their bond /confused
They can't control the initial formation of the bond but as you say they are people, not just pets. They can (and in very rare circumstances have) repudiated their bonded human and refused to be with them any more.

"Treecats are attracted to Rational positive attitude." LOL

Which is a relative thing. And man will surely purport to know what rational and positive is to another species. Of course we know. We are man. Hu-man is also quite certain that WE are the epitome of rational and positive.

At any rate, the initial bonding mechanism cannot be controlled but the treecats can have second thoughts much like we as humans do after several dates. LOL Whereby, quite often, the damage is already done.

I merely wanted to point out the possibility of a triggered bonding between the treecats and the MAlign.

Love is in the eye of the beholder—or in the mind, as the case may be with the 'Cats. Perhaps I should apologize for my "Ahead of its time" conceptions. And for seeing what just may materialize in future series.