BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA

Compared to the rest of humanity, the sensibilities of the Mandarins and its navy must be graded on a curve, but instead of tossing out their lowest score, you discard their highest.
—cthia's niece

Joat42 wrote:Elaborate what mistakes they did?

tlb wrote:Could you please state, or restate, your ideas for the path best taken? Your prescription, suggestion, what have you in a clear, concise way that I can try to follow and perhaps understand. Inquiring minds want to know

Sure, and I'll go straight to the heart of the matter without any circumlocution - uh, until the end that is.

The first thing Beowulf could have done was to get out of the kitchen before it got too hot. They should have seceded long before the hairy ape dragged them into a shooting war they couldn't possibly win.

Beowulf is a founder. They have certain unspoken, implied responsibilities to their founding. Regardless of how much in love they are with the Manties.

At any rate, waiting to secede until the middle of a war is just plain old wrong. It's like Pavel Young deciding to quit the navy in the middle of a war because he objected to the people he loved being put in danger. Himself.

n7axw wrote:Beowulf has long been a critic of the League from within. Its delegation has witnessed against League policies for years from the forum of the Assembly.

If there is any moral argument that can cogently be leveled against Beowulf, it's that because they didn't leave sooner and thus were as a League member complicit with the OFS policies in the Verge. But even that is weak because Beowulf could not as a League member impact those policies.

Perhaps they couldn't impact those policies, as it has obviously appeared to them for centuries. So why not secede, showing the League that there were consequences to their actions, and maybe in the process even start a #metoo revolution within the entire framework? The same revolution that is happening now with domino secessions.

Is it because they needed the League for protection until the Star Kingdom started working out in the weight room? If so, they used the League to their advantage, which might not sit too well with the gorilla.

Someone else feels that Beowulf could have left long ago. . .

Exhibit A:

papillon wrote:They could have left at any time. Its not like they were an uneducated housewife with 5 children from 6-1. More like a Medical Professional (specialty: genetics) who stayed in a relationship too long because it was comfortable. Then when it became obvious that it was a relationship devoid of love, and the spouse suddenly made it quite clear that there wasn't even mutual respect, it rapidly devolved into this fur ball.

Then the spouse turned abusive.

I still maintain that Beowulf was the League's best girl. Or certainly in their top five for so many reasons. Beowulf has a terminus which leads into the territory of the second most affluent star system in space. This trading partner also has the most powerful navy in the galaxy (even though they didn't know it) and Beowulf's terminus leads right into the heart of League territory.

I'm not the only one who believes Beowulf is the League's best girl. . .

Exhibit B:

kzt wrote:Beowulf was probably the most important system in the creation of the Solarian League. So Beowulf leaving has much more of a sting to it than just one fairly wealthy system walking out the door

The second thing Beowulf could have done was to really do all it could do to stop King Kong from carrying out Operation Raging Justice.

Beowulf ratted out their own founding to the Manties. Okay, I can understand donning that moral mask in the name of saving lives. But, Beowulf had to know that if Kong found out she ratted him out there'd be hell to pay. I don't think the League knows about the rat, so Beowulf dodged that bullet, for what it's worth.

But! They didn't do the most important thing they could have done. And that is ratted out the League to as many of the citizens of the League as possible.

Beowulf should have had their embassy call a press conference and spilled the beans that the gorilla was walking into a trap. That would have been exercising the main function of the embassy! Which is all about solving problems it had with League policy and League action.

Beowulf should NOT have left that all important revelation in the hands of neobarbs. The government of the SEM knew the Mandarins wouldn't listen to reason, albeit I agree they had a moral and legal obligation to try. But when the diplomatic notes went unanswered, it wasn't exactly a surprise to anyone in the Haven sector.

Beowulf knew too. They knew full-well their old husband was NOT going to listen to anything coming out of the mouths of the despicable neobarbs who they have hated and resented for centuries.

In that very important press conference, Beowulf should have used their clout and directly informed the League that the SEM knew they were coming. And had set a trap. They also should have told them that an alliance had been formed with Haven so they would know exactly what they were up against. Why not? What could the Mandarins have done about it? They also could have sent a communiqué by Pritchart and Theisman to this effect as well.

However, whatever said at that press conference would have been a bit less important than who was saying it. And who it was being said to -- the Mandarins, the SL officers and the entire population in the Sol system.

In a formal press conference held by an important member of their own founding—who aren't neobarbs. And not by some lame ass method of diplomatic notes. The League doesn't listen to diplomatic notes. They don't listen to embassies, why would they listen to notes? This isn't grade school. You don't pass the SL notes.

They weren't even going to swell the neobarb's ego by answering them. It isn't like the SEM didn't have a lot of experience with the uncertainty of communiqué by diplomatic note. In fact, when speaking to the Assembly, Patricia Hadley shared the sentiment that the SEM doubted the diplomatic notes had even reached the right people. . .

ART Ch. 32 wrote:Our formal diplomatic notes, weren’t even responded to. So far as we know, none of the official ministers of the Solarian League’s government ever even saw them!

It is the same record playing over and over here as well. Manticore informed the League of all that was important for them to know, including the fact that they knew they were coming. But Beowulf didn't inform them, and as a result the SLN simply dismissed it as posturing on behalf of the Manties. All said and done, the Mandarins knew, but the citizens of the League didn't know a thing. The SLN, particularly Filareta, sure as hell didn't have a clue that their playbook preceded them or of what awaits them.

Beowulf and Beowulf alone should have used their clout and their embassy to take the fight directly to the Mandarins by confronting them in public, giving the average Solly in the street, who had family members on those doomed ships, a chance to rise up against the madness. Coming from anyone else other than Beowulf would have been dismissed as inconsequential. Beowulf. Knew. That. Too.

As I already posted, the Mandarins didn't trust their own intel or the undoctored data from their captured ships sent to them by the Manties. Why would they believe the Manties when they said they knew they were coming?

Regardless, the SLN didn't get the memo. They were surprised that the Manties knew. When the Salamander ran all of her intel down about the name of the mission and everything else, Filareta was embarrassed!

The Mandarins were informed by neobarbs, not by Beowulf. The SLN, and perhaps the League citizens of Old Earth, didn't have a damn clue. Beowulf could have made a real difference there!

The main point here is that Beowulf didn't do near enough of what she could have done - indeed should have done - to stave off the disaster brewing out of Old Terra, where it should have concentrated its efforts. After all they had plenty of time as even "Joat42" himself acknowledges. . .

Exhibit C:

Joat42 wrote:Third, since Filerata took his sweet time to get to Manticore the story about Raging Justice was all over the news and newsies where flocking to Manticore. Manticore would not have been unprepared even if Beowulf didn't pass the information along.

Again, this gives Beowulf plenty of time to formally get the news out all over the planet about the huge mistake and disaster brewing. Why not, they have an embassy right there on planet! If they had to, they should have sacrificed the lives of a few hundred delegates, at best, for the sake of everyone concerned. Instead of risking riling the raging lunatic and undoubtedly paying a much higher price, later. Besides, in the end they may be sacrificed anyway.

I surmise the reason they didn't use their embassy to publicly out the Mandarins is fear for the lives of their own delegates. And they probably were right about the consequences of being arrested and worse. But then, the Beowulfan delegation should have been expendable in the overall scheme of things of what they were trying to accomplish - that of saving a lot of lives. Sacrifice few for many.

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.

The press conference would have covered their ass if push comes to shove and Beowulf had to decide whether to cooperate and allow Tsang to use the junction later. Which brings us to the downright nitty gritty. . .

The third thing Beowulf could have done.

Thunder Child Actual wrote:They kept Tsang from committing suicide by attacking a defended Wormhole. Should they have just let her fly her ships into that meat grinder?

This is where the rubber truly meets the road.

I will say that history may undoubtedly record that Beowulf made the correct moral decision to deny Tsang access to the terminus. I am not so certain that its own history will agree -- certainly not the family members of the loved ones whose lives were unceremoniously snuffed out by karma from Beowulf's actions coming home to roost.

Beowulf knew that its actions would undoubtedly be cast in treasonous stone by the gorilla. It is the gorilla's MO. It is also human nature. Whereas, I also find it commendable for Beowulf to consider the lives of the many League officers simply following orders, as Theisman told Honor "Your obligation is to your own people."

If Beowulf would have outed the Mandarins in public, then they also could have informed the Mandarins and all of the League's citizens that if it came down to it, they would allow translation through their terminus even though legally upon the Constitution they didn't have to or even want to. Albeit, it would be a huge mistake, because they will be slaughtered! Done and done, Beowulf's own ass is blanketed and their conscience is clear, though their hearts are still heavy. The lesser of two evils.

Why on Old Terra do I think Beowulf should have allowed translation? If this doesn't cut the mustard...

In a few words, Beowulf is a founder! Surely the Mandarins as well as jaded League officers and citizens counted on Beowulf for support during war. De facto or otherwise. I'd like to say that pulling the conscientious objector crap in the middle of a war is my favorite British word, bollox. But it isn't, it's downright bullshit. Beowulf knew the Mandarins and many of Old Terra's citizens would be appalled. I wouldn't be surprised if poor Tsang is having recurrent nightmares. It is as if the entire ordeal is straight out of a Sci-fi novel to Tsang and beyond belief.

As far as this point is concerned, in cthia's own opinion, Beowulf definitely went way too far.

Again, why?

Because every living thing has a right to survive and a right to fight for its life. Even the League has a right to survive. That right is innate, raw. Every living creature has within him the will to fight to survive. With the exception of sheep. Anyone view the Mandarins or the League as sheep? Regardless of their butcher bill.

The League, ran by the Mandarins, had a will and a right to fight to survive, same as any of God's creatures. Though hairy, ugly, shameless, arrogant and inconsiderate, the gorilla is alive. Going for a Hail Mary is understandable. And it is their innate right! Their own founding went too far in denying their right to bastardize John Harington's quote.

I understand the impetus behind Beowulf deciding to do it anyway, but they had to have known the check they were writing on its own ass and the interest it was accruing, and of what flavor of payment would come by karma. The title of the thread simply points out that they got the flavor of karma they paid for. Regardless of their reasons. Which brings us to. . .

The fourth thing that resulted in Beowulf screwing the pooch. As would be seen in the eyes of their scorned husband. . .


BEOWULF'S DECISION NOT TO SIT ON THE DISPATCH BOAT


Beowulf should have allowed Manticore to sit on that dispatch boat! Even insisted on it if it had to. But they didn't have to. Textev bears witness that it was their own insistence to let it it do what it was sent their to do. Had the RMN simply sat on the DB until the whole ordeal was over, then Beowulf's hand would never have been tipped. They wouldn't have had to cross the line into no-man's-land with their own founding and risking being charged with, what they damned well knew would be, treason. They obviously let their emotions directed at the League and the Mesans cloud their better judgement. The SLN and all involved would have had no choice but to assume it was the Manties who sat on the dispatch boat. Beowulf was flexing its newfound bf's muscles. And it backfired. So, accept the flavor of karma ordered. Just sayin'.


Exhibit D:

cthia wrote:Why didn't Manticore simply seize the DB? Preventing Tsang from ever getting the go ahead, also preventing the possibility of Beowulf pissing the SLN off with treason? IIRC, the RMN knew the purpose of the DB, they attended a rodeo or two in the past.

Eagleeye wrote:The decision was apparently made at Beowulf. There's textev to that effect ...

ART, Chapter 21 - page 267/268 HC-edition wrote:“Well, it just seems to me it would have been simpler all around to sit on them,” Captain Dombroski said. “I mean, they wouldn’t be going anywhere without our permission. We could’ve just kept them cooling their heels right here until it was all over one way or the other, without ever bringing the Beowulf end into it at all. Seems to me that keeping Beowulf up our sleeve as a holdout card in case we need to play it even worse later on might have a lot to recommend itself.”

“In some ways, I’m inclined to agree with you,” Grimm acknowledged. Given their positions and the role they had to play, she and Dombroski knew quite a lot about the thinking behind this part of the plan. And in Grimm’s opinion, the captain had a very valid point. But . . .

“It’d be a hard call for me, either way,” she said finally. “I’m sure it was for everyone else involved, too. In fact, even though no one’s told me this in so many words, I think it was ultimately the Beowulfers who made the decision, not anyone at our end. And I think the deciding factor was probably that they’re really and truly royally pissed off at this Mesan Alignment. There’s no way in this universe they’re going to sit on the sidelines when we go after them, and they’re about as disgusted as anyone could possibly get with the way Kolokoltsov and the Mandarins have botched the entire situation. For that matter, they’re disgusted as hell with all the rest of the League for letting itself get turned into such a bitched-up mess instead of a star nation in the first place. So this is their way of punctuating all the reasons they’re doing what they’re doing—jumping ship to sign up with us, I mean. And I think they want to draw Admiral Tsang in, get her to openly commit to her part of ‘Operation Raging Justice,’ so they’ll have that additional evidence of just how fast and loose with the League Constitution Kolokoltsov’s apparatchiks are really willing to play.”

(bold text by me)

Thank you for your explanation of what Beowulf should have done. I assume that having missed the timing for the correct moment to secede, you would have them concentrate on the next three points and not leave until the crisis was over.
My only quibble is in point 3, I think you are too dismissive of a sheep's will to survive.
(edit)
Having thought some more, I should say that I still find the analogy to marriage and divorce to be objectionable and the use of the words treason and karma to sow more discord than enlightenment. But your prescription might have kept most of the heat off Beowulf.
There are two additional things that you might want to address. The first is what will happen, under your scenario, when the League finds that Beowulf has been helping Manticore rebuild and rearm after the Yawata Strike (including the manufacture of missile and defense platforms)? Second is what will happen when the League decides to fortify the end of the wormhole at Beowulf?

Very interesting points. Of course, that is with 20/20 hindsight.

Beowulf was a founder, perhaps the most important founder, of the League. They had a pride in it.

Also, it is hard to leave something that is really dominant in the galaxy. Look at the US and UN. The international organization does a real lot of things the US hates. It could be argued (as opinion, not necessarily fact) that it is responsible for a real lot that is wrong with the world.

But if we leave that would reduce our say in what goes on. Beowulf might well have felt the same.

Also note that for most of the time the League has been growing, Manticore and Haven were tiny nations. They only began to really build up less than a century...far less than a century from the start of the series. Who wants to be alone? What say would they have? Might they be in danger if they really opposed the League?

I agree that it would have been wiser to let the Sollie Navy transit the junction. Yes, the Sollies would have been destroyed. But Beowulf would look nice and innocent although pretty much over 100,000 people died.

The diatribe above sounds more like a mandarin prosecutor than an analyst.

Interestingly, a lot of this was also shown in the movie Captain America: Civil War. Tony Stark accepts the idea that a whole lot of nations can make better decisions than an individual. Captain America believes that one person is responsible for his/her moral decisions. In the movie, Stark (and the international group) is proven wrong. In the latest film, even as the big villain is smashing down the world, the international group is still ready to go after Cap and his group.

That is a great metaphor for the Beowulf situation as well.

tlb wrote:Thank you for your explanation of what Beowulf should have done. I assume that having missed the timing for the correct moment to secede, you would have them concentrate on the next three points and not leave until the crisis was over.
My only quibble is in point 3, I think you are too dismissive of a sheep's will to survive.
(edit)
Having thought some more, I should say that I still find the analogy to marriage and divorce to be objectionable and the use of the words treason and karma to sow more discord than enlightenment. But your prescription might have kept most of the heat off Beowulf.
There are two additional things that you might want to address. The first is what will happen, under your scenario, when the League finds that Beowulf has been helping Manticore rebuild and rearm after the Yawata Strike (including the manufacture of missile and defense platforms)? Second is what will happen when the League decides to fortify the end of the wormhole at Beowulf?

You're welcome. My apologies for the time it took to do so. The exigencies of life.

Yes, that is how I feel and what I was thinking. As a matter of fact, I meant to include that sentiment within the post, but somehow it got cut from the final draft because of the overall length. If you think the final is long, you should see it before it was editedededededed.

All cogent points but you fail to appreciate just how rapidly the strategic situation and the balance of power evolved. Up until the BoM, the SKM was struggling to survive. Up until the deployment of Apollo, the qualitative advantage of the RMN was not yet adequate to overcome the quantative advantage of the SLN. Even after the BoM, the RMN was in no position to safeguard the SEM and take on the SLN. Only after the peace with the Republic of Haven was the RMN so utterly dominant over the SLN.

Only when the above evolution occurred was it was reasonably sensible for Beawulf to seceed from the SL. If the SEM was conquered, there was no way that Beawulf could stand against Haven.

Unfortunately; the situation after deployment of Apollo, the BoM, and the peace with Haven evolved with extreme rapidity. The battles with Bing, Crandlr and Fillarta occurred over how many months? The SLN was already in a shooting war the the RMN before Beawulf had an opportunity to seceed. Secession during war time was the only opportunity.

cthia, your entire argument boils down to "Beowulf did wrong!" when in reality they where morally and legally right and the SLN & the Mandarins where morally and legally wrong. No matter how you spin that it doesn't change the facts.

It's not like Beowulf had tried to address the problems in the Assembly, again and again. And when they finally realized it's not possible they wanted out.

And if you believe that Beowulf confronting the Mandarins would have changed anything, I have bridge to sell. And from a legal standpoint it would have been bad to directly confront the Mandarins since that could establish a precedent that the Mandarins power supersede the Assembly's.

Also, you don't think they tried going public? The story about Raging Justice was in the tabloids for weeks and the Solarian public opinion was against Manticore because of all the propaganda and it didn't get better after the SLN got their hands handed to them. Do you really think one reasonable voice could be heard in that kind of environment?

Everyone tried to play by the book except the SLN and the Mandarins, and for some reason you want to blame Beowulf for that.

All in all, no matter what illegal actions the SLN and the Mandarins did, according to you it's Beowulfs own fault for getting attacked or not acting earlier or differently. Should've, would've and could've is extremely easy in hindsight.

Joat42 wrote:cthia, your entire argument boils down to "Beowulf did wrong!"

Nope.

I never said that Beowulf was ultimately wrong. In fact, I recall correcting you on that in a post upstream. Beowulf made some wrong decisions to try to accomplish what was right. Very wrong decisions considering the disposition of her husband. There is an. . . 800# difference. It isn't about blame, it is about karma being attached to the decisions you make. Internally, I think Beowulf knew damn well they'd be taken to task by the Mandarins/SLN. They simply hoped their new bfs muscles would protect them. I haven't read UH, but from what I gather the new bf did quite well for himself, but, the new bf simply couldn't stave off karma.

Joat42 wrote:when in reality they where morally and legally right and the SLN & the Mandarins where morally and legally wrong.

Nope again.

I do recall going so far as admitting that history would record that Beowulf made the right moral decision? But the correct moral decision isn't always the right decision for all involved. All meaning, their own people. But sure, history most likely will record that they made the right moral decision regarding the officers blindly following orders aboard Tsang's ships. Albeit, whether it was an absolutely correct moral decision overall, is questionable.

Preventing Tsang's forces from translating saved the lives of Tsang's forces. And I imagine they will be thanking Beowulf for that when they are old and gray and have a chance to do a little self reflection. But the karma it set in motion was certainly going to cost a whole lot more lives overall. And they knew that.

Making an act of treason in the eyes of the husband. Very very questionable.

In the eyes of the families of the people who died. . . well, they may have another thing or three, yet, to say about the authenticity of history.

Joat42 wrote:No matter how you spin that it doesn't change the facts.

Agreed, if those facts are. . . Beowulf, the karma suits ya.

Joat42 wrote:It's not like Beowulf had tried to address the problems in the Assembly, again and again. And when they finally realized it's not possible they wanted out.

Yes, they did try to address problems in the Assembly for centuries. Age old problems. This discussion is about the more immediate problem they had on the front burner of an out-of-control ape headed to Manticore to bust some heads. They didn't take that to the Assembly. Sweet Patricia Hadley, bless her sweet lil ol heart, took it to the Assembly after the fact. In one of my favorite elocutions in the entire series. After the fact. Akin to a wife chastising the actions of a jealous husband.

Joat42 wrote:And if you believe that Beowulf confronting the Mandarins would have changed anything, I have bridge to sell.

I'll even supply the seed capital. You and I could make a killing on anyone who actually does believe it, because I certainly don't.

BUT! They could have done an end around and took the stinking mess to the citizens of the League where it belonged. If they had made up their minds to rat on the Mandarins, rat on them to the right people.

Joat42 wrote:And from a legal standpoint it would have been bad to directly confront the Mandarins since that could establish a precedent that the Mandarins power supersede the Assembly's.

What the hell!? Perhaps it would have brought it to the attention to the citizens of the League that the Mandarins power DID supersede the Assembly's.


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From what I gather, isn't that exactly what Harrington ultimately made clear to the citizens of the League in the end? Might've saved Honor the trouble.

Joat42 wrote:Also, you don't think they tried going public? The story about Raging Justice was in the tabloids for weeks and the Solarian public opinion was against Manticore because of all the propaganda and it didn't get better after the SLN got their hands handed to them. Do you really think one reasonable voice could be heard in that kind of environment?

HELL NO I don't think they tried going public. Because they didn't. I don't know how some of the rudiments of truth did hit the faxes, but Beowulf sure as hell didn't take credit for it. Consider what you just said Joat. You do know what "tabloids" are, right? Beowulf, itself, didn't take the bull by the horns. And yes, I do believe that people would have paid attention to a formal outing of the Mandarins by their most important founder. Other than some damn seedy tabloid that is certainly a bastion of truth, that the average person who matters might not even read anyway.

In that regard, Beowulf was chicken shit. If they were willing to go public, they wouldn't have had to rat on the SLN by the use of a black channel. Why black? I'll tell you why black. It sure isn't because that black was beautiful. It is because they knew full-well they were about to turn into rats. And they also knew full-well what happened to most of the unauthorized rats annoying the Mandarins/Gorilla over the centuries.

Joat42 wrote:Everyone tried to play by the book except the SLN and the Mandarins, and for some reason you want to blame Beowulf for that.

Again, the thread is not about blame. It is about karma.

All in all, no matter what illegal actions the SLN and the Mandarins did, according to you it's Beowulf's own fault for getting attacked or not acting earlier or differently. Should've, would've and could've is extremely easy in hindsight.

Someone else also made that shocking mistake. Name one thing the Mandarins and the SLN did thst even required hindsight. The two entities are as transparent as air. And they sure as hell are consistent. Requiring no hindsight atall. Common sense maybe.

Joat, I am not trying to dirty Beowulf. I like Beowulf. They simply made some wrong choices considering who they were married to. Each one of the Mandarins can substitute for Hitler. You don't do what Beowulf did and let Hitler find out about it.

But what the thread is about is. . .

If you do do to Hitler what Beowulf did to the Mandarins/Gorilla, ain't nobody gonna buy a single stock saying ya didn't know what was coming.

cthia wrote:

Joat42 wrote:All in all, no matter what illegal actions the SLN and the Mandarins did, according to you it's Beowulf's own fault for getting attacked or not acting earlier or differently. Should've, would've and could've is extremely easy in hindsight.

Someone else also made that shocking mistake. Name one thing the Mandarins and the SLN did thst even required hindsight. The two entities are as transparent as air. And they sure as hell are consistent. Requiring no hindsight atall. Common sense maybe.

Joat, I am not trying to dirty Beowulf. I like Beowulf. They simply made some wrong choices considering who they were married to. Each one of the Mandarins can substitute for Hitler. You don't do what Beowulf did and let Hitler find out about it.

But what the thread is about is. . .

If you do do to Hitler what Beowulf did to the Mandarins/Gorilla, ain't nobody gonna buy a single stock saying ya didn't know what was coming.

Uhm, it's you cthia that are debating in hindsight what Beowulf should've, would've and could've done. And you keep referring to what happened to Beowulf as karma. You usually have to do some pretty bad things to get hit with bad karma costing millions of lives. In essence, your usage of the word karma for this situation is the same as putting the blame squarely on Beowulf.

And comparing the Mandarins to Hitler - well chtia, that's so wrong on so many levels it boggles the mind. I don't think you understand what Hitler was all about.

And the point is, you started this thread by calling Beowulf bad and that they where treasonous and karma biting their ass was their own fault for separating themselves from the League because Beowulf didn't feel like being the Mandarins doormat any longer.

Please tell me what Beowulf should have done WITHOUT hindsight of what would happen?

From where I'm standing, this whole debate is about victim blaming Beowulf.

I found out in High School that 30 ppl reading a story come away from it with thirty different takes. I said again and again that an English teacher of mine said that I have an uncommon ability to become the character. "It is refreshing, don't ever lose it."


So it doesn't surprise me that we all think differently.

But I am absolutely gob smacked to find out that at the beginning of the thread, I am the only one - during the maiden voyage of reading the story - who thought this about that scene with Tsang. . .

BEOWULF. YOU SURE GOT SOME BIG BRASS BALLS HONEY.

TAKE CARE THEY DON'T GET SQUISHED BY A CERTAIN GORILLA!

I sure as hell wouldn't want my testicles in Kong's testy hands. But that is exactly where Beowulf placed theirs.

Me eyes furled reading those scenes. Honestly, yours didn't? Dammit man! Lay off the coffee!

Joat42 wrote:All in all, no matter what illegal actions the SLN and the Mandarins did, according to you it's Beowulf's own fault for getting attacked or not acting earlier or differently. Should've, would've and could've is extremely easy in hindsight.

cthia wrote:Someone else also made that shocking mistake. Name one thing the Mandarins and the SLN did thst even required hindsight. The two entities are as transparent as air. And they sure as hell are consistent. Requiring no hindsight atall. Common sense maybe.

Joat, I am not trying to dirty Beowulf. I like Beowulf. They simply made some wrong choices considering who they were married to. Each one of the Mandarins can substitute for Hitler. You don't do what Beowulf did and let Hitler find out about it.

But what the thread is about is. . .

If you do do to Hitler what Beowulf did to the Mandarins/Gorilla, ain't nobody gonna buy a single stock saying ya didn't know what was coming.

Joat42 wrote:Uhm, it's you cthia that are debating in hindsight what Beowulf should've, would've and could've done. And you keep referring to what happened to Beowulf as karma. You usually have to do some pretty bad things to get hit with bad karma costing millions of lives. In essence, your usage of the word karma for this situation is the same as putting the blame squarely on Beowulf.

And comparing the Mandarins to Hitler - well chtia, that's so wrong on so many levels it boggles the mind. I don't think you understand what Hitler was all about.

And the point is, you started this thread by calling Beowulf bad and that they where treasonous and karma biting their ass was their own fault for separating themselves from the League because Beowulf didn't feel like being the Mandarins doormat any longer.

Please tell me what Beowulf should have done WITHOUT hindsight of what would happen?

From where I'm standing, this whole debate is about victim blaming Beowulf.

I think many of the disagreements in this thread are the result of karma biting cthia for misusing the words "karma" and "treason" and the analogy of "marriage and divorce" (which is still is use).

As I now understand the point, which is obscured by those terms: Beowulf could have taken a different path, that might have avoided the mega deaths which have occurred (although the author did promise that fate months ago). In this alternate history Beowulf uses the public forum of the League Assembly to warn about Filetra and Raging Justice, while quietly getting Manticore to suppress the courier boat that was to trigger Tsang's transit into Manticore space. By doing that quietly then Tsang's forces would be saved without the Mandarins learning that Beowulf had a hand in preventing the transfer. Beowulf holds off on trying to secede until after the war crisis has passed.
Stated that way the plan seems reasonable, but it might fail when it becomes public knowledge that Beowulf has been rebuilding and rearming Manticore.