BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA

I understand that you are very happy with your terms and analogies, but one thing I do not understand is what you, as you alone, think that Beowulf should have done.

Could you please state, or restate, your ideas for the path best taken? Your prescription, suggestion, what have you in a clear, concise way that I can try to follow and perhaps understand. Inquiring minds want to know.[/quote]
+1.

Especially since the two immediate mass deaths caused by Beowulf's "treason" were the result of actions by the MA. An organization that no one knew about until a few months ago in Universe.

The ships destryoed in A Rising Thunder would still have been alive if the MA had not bombed the Flag Bridge and caused all of the missiles to be fired.

The millions of Beowulf civilians that were killed died not as a direct result of SL actions but were killed by bombs placed by the MA.


Beowulf worked with the GA to offer the fleet in A Rising Thunder a chance to surrender without bloodshed. If not for MA actions that would have happened.

They kept Tsang from committing suicide by attacking a defended Wormhole. Should they have just let her fly her ships into that meat grinder?


They worked with the GA so that when the SL sent ships to attack Beowulf those ships failed in their mission. It was only the MA bombs that were set off using the SL attack as a cover that caused damage. So how does Beowulf's "treason" to the SL justify the MA killing millions of its civilians?

Thunder Child Actual wrote:
They kept Tsang from committing suicide by attacking a defended Wormhole. Should they have just let her fly her ships into that meat grinder?

Well, since they were planning an attack on a neutral star system they were clearly pirates. Sounds to me like Beowulf was protecting pirates! So yes, if they weren't going to apprehend the pirates themselves, I think letting Manticore do it would have been ideal.

Step two would have been apprehending themselves for supporting terrorism.

Your analogy reminds me of a certain Judge who shall not be named also known as "his nameless wife's cuckold." His wife used to be the US Attorney for a certain State who became famous for persecuting a ranching family to enable civil forfeiture of their property. This imbecile judge has such profound discernment that his wife was able to engage in a prolonged and spectacularly indiscrete extramarrital affair that he apparently remained oblivious too until she got herself arrested for stalking her boyfriend. (She must not have been that much fun in bed or her boyfriend wouldn't be complaining about it?) The judge probably believed her when she told him that the case of Syphilliys that pennicillin will not cure which is now rotting his brain is just a little something that he must have picked up from a toilet seat in the courthouse.

Since this judge lacks the testicular fortitude to divorce his phillandering wife, he abuses his authority as a Judge by abusing the citizens of this rural County. He recently gave a marijuana bootlegger a free pass for shooting at his landlord's children with a 12 gauge shotgun in retaliation for the landlord trying to evict him. The ruling appears to be motivated in part by the desire to enable his wife to ressurect her professional and political career by prosecuting the landlord for the tenant's illegal marijunna grow.

The citizens of this rural County are now suffering the consequences. The County is becoming a dumping ground for murdered mothers. The body of the most recent victim who had been beaten to death was discovered in a ditch barely half a mile away from a blueberry field where another murdered mother had been discovered not quite two years ago. Given the incidence of about 100 such murders per year nationally, this county with a population of only 100,000 should not be experiencing this. But why not? The judge is too busy demonstrating their anger at their cheating wife to give a shit.

Does this seem like a valid analogy for the SLN venting its anger with Manticore and Beawulf by committing violations of the Deneb accords and the Erandandi Edict against the innocent people of Hypatia?

Beawulf's mistake was not getting bigger gun and shooting her abusive husband in the back then in the head to make certain that he was dead.

Just send a courier through to warn the RMN that the pirates are coming.

quite possibly a cat wrote:

Thunder Child Actual wrote:
They kept Tsang from committing suicide by attacking a defended Wormhole. Should they have just let her fly her ships into that meat grinder?

Well, since they were planning an attack on a neutral star system they were clearly pirates. Sounds to me like Beowulf was protecting pirates! So yes, if they weren't going to apprehend the pirates themselves, I think letting Manticore do it would have been ideal.

Step two would have been apprehending themselves for supporting terrorism.

One particular matter came up already in this thread. I am really trying to see how the fact that instead of the jealous husband - the SLN - actually doing Beowulf harm, it turns out to be the MA using the vengeful patsies, as ultimately affecting the fact that it is all about Beowulf's karma coming home to roost.

I would never have guessed that anyone is as gullible as the League's citizens who are as indoctrinated as any old hog who's able to be force-fed slop and easily led to slaughter.

BUT! There sure as hell ain't no way that I will buy into the swampland that the SLN suddenly found their moral compass and becomes some paragon of unadulterated concern for Beowulf being held against their will with a Manticoran pulsar at their heads telling them to defect, as being the reason they are really in Beowulfan orbit during the referendum.

I'm not going to reinvent this wheel. Nothing has changed.

RE: Thunder Child Actual.

cthia wrote:One particular matter came up already in this thread. I am really trying to see how the fact that - instead of the jealous husband, the SLN, actually doing Beowulf harm - it turns out to be the MA using the vengeful patsies, as ultimately affecting the fact that it is all about Beowulf's karma coming home to roost.

I would never have guessed that anyone is as gullible as the League's citizens who are as indoctrinated as any old hog who's able to be force-fed slop and easily led to slaughter.

BUT! There sure as hell ain't no way that I will buy into the swampland that the SLN suddenly found their moral compass and becomes some paragon of unadulterated concern for Beowulf being held against their will with a Manticoran pulsar at their heads telling them to defect, as being the reason they are really in Beowulfan orbit during the referendum.

I'm not going to reinvent this wheel. Nothing has changed.

Why, that would be like totally blaming the MA for the reason Filareta took his fleet all the way to Manticore to be turned into orbital debris.

Edits: grammar police writing tickets.

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cthia wrote:RE: Thunder Child Actual.

cthia wrote:One particular matter came up already in this thread. I am really trying to see how the fact that instead of the jealous husband - the SLN - actually doing Beowulf harm, it turns out to be the MA using the vengeful patsies, as ultimately affecting the fact that it is all about Beowulf's karma coming home to roost.

I would never have guessed that anyone is as gullible as the League's citizens who are as indoctrinated as any old hog who's able to be force-fed slop and easily led to slaughter.

BUT! There sure as hell ain't no way that I will buy into the swampland that the SLN suddenly found their moral compass and becomes some paragon of unadulterated concern for Beowulf being held against their will with a Manticoran pulsar at their heads telling them to defect, as being the reason they are really in Beowulfan orbit during the referendum.

I'm not going to reinvent this wheel. Nothing has changed.

Why, that would be like totally blaming the MA for the reason Filareta took his fleet all the way to Manticore to be turned into orbital debris.

When you control the information almost totally, there will always be people to believe.

Also, keep in mind that the League Assembly did NOT really answer to the people but to special interest groups.

The "people" tended to be those on Terra who could riot, etc.

Did core members and founders receive any of the immense funds collected by the government of Old Chicago? The League apparatus collected a shi— shipload of ca— err loot over the centuries. Was Beowulf a benefactor of some of that looted booty over the centuries? Certainly the states in the US are doled out cash for certain emergencies from the US government. The planets of the SEM receive funding from Manticore for certain things.

Was Beowulf so conscientious over the centuries that it refused government assistance?


I'm also at a loss as to why the League, the SLN, wasn't more intimate with Beowulf. Beowulf is a founder with a junction. Her economy had to have been one of the bigger of the founders. Why didn't the League establish its own system protection in Beowulf space? Why weren't they more concerned with the junction over the years, after it finally did understand its significance?

I know Beowulf has its own BSDF, but it had to take a while to build it, at which point the mighty League should have had more of a hand in the pot.

I understand that many of Beowulf's ships were of League design? But was any of them actual League ships given to Beowulf? Like the captive ships the Star Kingdom gave to Grayson? The League has an immense reserve and they weren't exactly privy to Beowulf's tech advancement. So shouldn't they have had a more active hand, or at least wanted to, in the protection of its best girl? Yet, there was none of the League's tech in Beowulf space.

cthia wrote:Did core members and founders receive any of the immense funds collected by the government of Old Chicago? The League apparatus collected a shi— shipload of ca— err loot over the centuries. Was Beowulf a benefactor of some of that looted booty over the centuries? Certainly the states in the US are doled out cash for certain emergencies from the US government. The planets of the SEM receive funding from Manticore for certain things.

Was Beowulf so conscientious over the centuries that it refused government assistance?

That's not how the economy in the SL works. Every system pays for their own SDF and stuff. The league bureaucracy and the SLN are funded entirely from tariffs and taxes on shipping.

I guess there must be instances where the league may have given subsistence's and economic help to poor systems and possibly even to Beowulf. From your questioning though, it seems you desperately want to find something that would make Beowulf look bad in retrospect.

cthia wrote:I'm also at a loss as to why the League, the SLN, wasn't more intimate with Beowulf. Beowulf is a founder with a junction. Her economy had to have been one of the bigger of the founders. Why didn't the League establish its own system protection in Beowulf space? Why weren't they more concerned with the junction over the years, after it finally did understand its significance?

Beowulf doesn't have a junction, they have a termini. The junction belongs to Manticore.

It seem you have some misconceptions about the League. The League isn't some jealous lover that keeps all the systems on a short leash, it's a entity that was created to defend and safeguard its member systems. The most apt comparison would be the UN and the league founding members akin to the security council but with no real power.

And why would the League be concerned with the junction? It's not like anyone would be crazy enough to attack the League through it... Although, they where jealous of the income it gave Manticore.

cthia wrote:I know Beowulf has its own BSDF, but it had to take a while to build it, at which point the mighty League should have had more of a hand in the pot.

I understand that many of Beowulf's ships were of League design? But was any of them actual League ships given to Beowulf? Like the captive ships the Star Kingdom gave to Grayson? The League has an immense reserve and they weren't exactly privy to Beowulf's tech advancement. So shouldn't they have had a more active hand, or at least wanted to, in the protection of its best girl? Yet, there was none of the League's tech in Beowulf space.

I don't get where you are going with this reasoning. Beowulf certainly built ships of League design and most likely bought hardware for them from League corporations unless they manufactured the items in question themselves (which in essence would make them League hardware). They later on incorporated Manticorian technologies and designs in their ships. And from what I can glean of the available textev I don't think the SLN is allowed to gift ships to league members. And historically, since Beowulf resided in the core they really didn't need a big SDF until the MWHJ was discovered and the Haven-Manticore war prompted a re-evaluation. Furthermore, there is no special mention about League tech being absent so I don't know where you got that idea.

And I'm still wondering why you would think Beowulf is the Leagues "best girl"? They spearheaded the founding of the League but there where other founding members. Beowulf certainly held a special place in the League as the primary founder but as we know; from the Mandarins perspective, that was just another bump in the road to drive over with the help of the Assembly which would indicate that your idea of a 'best girl' is just something you are projecting on Beowulf.

It's almost as if your whole reasoning about Beowulf and the League is to take the latest events and retroactively try to apply that knowledge on the history of Beowulf to tarnish its reputation...

Joat42 wrote:

cthia wrote:Did core members and founders receive any of the immense funds collected by the government of Old Chicago? The League apparatus collected a shi— shipload of ca— err loot over the centuries. Was Beowulf a benefactor of some of that looted booty over the centuries? Certainly the states in the US are doled out cash for certain emergencies from the US government. The planets of the SEM receive funding from Manticore for certain things.

Was Beowulf so conscientious over the centuries that it refused government assistance?

That's not how the economy in the SL works. Every system pays for their own SDF and stuff. The league bureaucracy and the SLN are funded entirely from tariffs and taxes on shipping.

I guess there must be instances where the league may have given subsistence's and economic help to poor systems and possibly even to Beowulf. From your questioning though, it seems you desperately want to find something that would make Beowulf look bad in retrospect.

cthia wrote:I'm also at a loss as to why the League, the SLN, wasn't more intimate with Beowulf. Beowulf is a founder with a junction. Her economy had to have been one of the bigger of the founders. Why didn't the League establish its own system protection in Beowulf space? Why weren't they more concerned with the junction over the years, after it finally did understand its significance?

Beowulf doesn't have a junction, they have a termini. The junction belongs to Manticore.

It seem you have some misconceptions about the League. The League isn't some jealous lover that keeps all the systems on a short leash, it's a entity that was created to defend and safeguard its member systems. The most apt comparison would be the UN and the league founding members akin to the security council but with no real power.

And why would the League be concerned with the junction? It's not like anyone would be crazy enough to attack the League through it... Although, they where jealous of the income it gave Manticore.

cthia wrote:I know Beowulf has its own BSDF, but it had to take a while to build it, at which point the mighty League should have had more of a hand in the pot.

I understand that many of Beowulf's ships were of League design? But was any of them actual League ships given to Beowulf? Like the captive ships the Star Kingdom gave to Grayson? The League has an immense reserve and they weren't exactly privy to Beowulf's tech advancement. So shouldn't they have had a more active hand, or at least wanted to, in the protection of its best girl? Yet, there was none of the League's tech in Beowulf space.

I don't get where you are going with this reasoning. Beowulf certainly built ships of League design and most likely bought hardware for them from League corporations unless they manufactured the items in question themselves (which in essence would make them League hardware). They later on incorporated Manticorian technologies and designs in their ships. And from what I can glean of the available textev I don't think the SLN is allowed to gift ships to league members. And historically, since Beowulf resided in the core they really didn't need a big SDF until the MWHJ was discovered and the Haven-Manticore war prompted a re-evaluation. Furthermore, there is no special mention about League tech being absent so I don't know where you got that idea.

And I'm still wondering why you would think Beowulf is the Leagues "best girl"? They spearheaded the founding of the League but there where other founding members. Beowulf certainly held a special place in the League as the primary founder but as we know; from the Mandarins perspective, that was just another bump in the road to drive over with the help of the Assembly which would indicate that your idea of a 'best girl' is just something you are projecting on Beowulf.

It's almost as if your whole reasoning about Beowulf and the League is to take the latest events and retroactively try to apply that knowledge on the history of Beowulf to tarnish its reputation...

I look on the Beowulf thing as a metaphor (albeit imperfect) for the US and the UN. The US was one of the founders and it had worthy goals. Those goals have been reinterpreted enough that often the US has been marginalized.

Of course, as the world's economic powerhouse and a top military one, overall we can't be pushed aside easily.

Beowulf was a founding planet but kept to the goals a lot better than the mandarins and all the rest. At times, it quietly worked against some of the interstellars. But when it directly opposed the League, it provided a scapegoat.

It would have been far smarter to let the League's ships through and, with Manticore warned, they could have had a whole group of forts and ships ready to take down the Sollies.