Honorverse Top Ten Tacticians, Strategists

Jonathan_S wrote:

dscott8 wrote:The only name I want to bring up for consideration is one of the most effective grand strategists in the entire Honorverse saga -- Albrecht Detweiler. You may not like his goals or his methods, but you cannot deny his results.

I'd make a counter argument that while forces he controls have done some nasty direct damage, and been even more destructive indirectly, it is unclear how much of that is a result of any particular acumen on his part.

He effective inherited the long term strategic plan, and the ongoing deep infiltration efforts that gave the MAlign the levers to do things like push Haven towards economic collapse and military expansion. So I don't know that we can give him much credit for the strategic vision of having or using those levers.

The parts we can clearly attribute to him mostly seem to be significant blunders -- where Apollo panicked the MAlign into rushing their endgame instead of pulling back and relying on their long term proven advantages in manipulating things undetectably from behind the scenes. Sure, Oyster Bay did a lot of damage to Manticore, but they came out of it in a stronger position relative to the MAlign because it was part of what convinced Haven to ally with them against whoever had launched such an attack.

(And that's ignoring the fact that he inherited and continued a strategy that is counterproductive to their claimed goals -- and I ignore that because it seems to be based on unstated goals of rubbing Beowulf's face in the Detweilers' victory. Something that wouldn't happen if they'd just gotten the freedom for genetic modifications centuries ago via PR and political manipulation)

I think Leonard should be substituted in the place of Albrecht, Leonard is the one true grand strategist. I think Albrecht simply had to follow the diagram and color within the lines.

That is not to say that following along is a piece of cake when the variables are ever changing. However, Leonard's original plan was good enough to be used without deviation if the MA had wanted to do so. In fact, it would have worked even better if they had shown even more patience. (More patience! What?) Oyster Bay was not necessary.

Their emotions is what tripped them up, and probably the anxieties of being in the end game. But still, there is no denying that on a grand strategist level they have no equals.

BEWARE OF DOUBLE POST

cthia wrote:I think Leonard should be substituted in the place of Albrecht, Leonard is the one true grand strategist. I think Albrecht simply had to follow the diagram and color within the lines.

Let's remember again that Leonard did not found the Alignment and did not create the Detweiler Plan. It was some unknown descendant of his between him and Albrecht.

Leonard did found Manpower, Inc. That company started with the purpose of helping create workforces for different types of environments and IIRC did start with genetic slaves during his lifetime, but he saw that as a temporary evil. More like a "genetic indenture" whereby the cost of producing such a genetic modification would have been paid by the recipient in the form of indentured labour for a period of time. The recipient would receive complete manumission by the end of that period.

That is not to say that following along is a piece of cake when the variables are ever changing. However, Leonard's original plan was good enough to be used without deviation if the MA had wanted to do so. In fact, it would have worked even better if they had shown even more patience. (More patience! What?) Oyster Bay was not necessary.

Again, wrong plan.

Yes, Leonard's original plan might have worked better, but it was never implemented. The vision he had was corrupted some time afterwards and the Detweiler Plan that we came to know replaced it. And you may be right that that Plan might have been good enough to be used without deviation, but it wasn't followed either, as we know.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

cthia wrote:I think Leonard should be substituted in the place of Albrecht, Leonard is the one true grand strategist. I think Albrecht simply had to follow the diagram and color within the lines.

Let's remember again that Leonard did not found the Alignment and did not create the Detweiler Plan. It was some unknown descendant of his between him and Albrecht.

Leonard did found Manpower, Inc. That company started with the purpose of helping create workforces for different types of environments and IIRC did start with genetic slaves during his lifetime, but he saw that as a temporary evil. More like a "genetic indenture" whereby the cost of producing such a genetic modification would have been paid by the recipient in the form of indentured labour for a period of time. The recipient would receive complete manumission by the end of that period.

That is not to say that following along is a piece of cake when the variables are ever changing. However, Leonard's original plan was good enough to be used without deviation if the MA had wanted to do so. In fact, it would have worked even better if they had shown even more patience. (More patience! What?) Oyster Bay was not necessary.

Again, wrong plan.

Yes, Leonard's original plan might have worked better, but it was never implemented. The vision he had was corrupted some time afterwards and the Detweiler Plan that we came to know replaced it. And you may be right that that Plan might have been good enough to be used without deviation, but it wasn't followed either, as we know.

All true.

But, it is also true that Leonard is the original grand strategist, and he laid down the Master plan.

Alas, as you pointed out and as was discussed in several other threads, Leonard's plan was altered. However, I suspect that the main tracks were laid down by Leonard, after all, Leonard's original plan was also a centuries long plan. That perfect plan had a diagram that was clear, and I think that studying Leonard's perfect diagram enabled the more aggressive changes that Albrecht (or whoever) could later edit into it.

Beginning with a very clear, concise, and complete original blueprint of a complex construction allows one to properly and safely alter it. The original blueprint -- that will always need referring back to -- is called the Master.

I suspect that Leonard's original plan was so complete and perfect that parts of it are too important and counterproductive to trash.

In fact, it might not be too late to dust off and fall back to Leonard's original plans.

cthia wrote:All true.

But, it is also true that Leonard is the original grand strategist, and he laid down the Master plan.

Didn't you just agree that Leonard did not come up with that plan? He didn't have a plan; at best, he had a vision for uplifting humanity, which the Benign Alignment (now Enlightenment) do subscribe to. But as those have shown us, they had no plan. All they had was a bunch of research that may or may not have led anywhere because there was no strategy or anyone guiding it.

I suspect that Leonard's original plan was so complete and perfect that parts of it are too important and counterproductive to trash.

Are you claiming that Leonard did have a plan so secret that there were no mentions if it anywhere, even to deep Onion members like Jack McBryde. Remember that the reason Jack became disillusioned with the Alignment was that it had deviated from Leonard's plan. If Leonard had had this whole vision that the Alignment later subscribed to, wouldn't they have made it available to the Inner Onion?

It's possible you're right, but highly unlikely. The story that we're told, as guessed by Anton Zilwicki in TEiF, is that Leonard's vision was corrupted.

Moreover, RFC's posts have made that clear. There's a lengthy post of his saying that, effectively, Leonard's vision has come mostly true and he was right all along, it just took way too long with Beowulf's intransigence, which wasn't helped by the fact that Manpower and Mesa were practising genetic slavery. It's just not in the actual books.

In fact, it might not be too late to dust off and fall back to Leonard's original plans.

That's what the Enlightenment is doing.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

cthia wrote:All true.

But, it is also true that Leonard is the original grand strategist, and he laid down the Master plan.

Didn't you just agree that Leonard did not come up with that plan? He didn't have a plan; at best, he had a vision for uplifting humanity, which the Benign Alignment (now Enlightenment) do subscribe to. But as those have shown us, they had no plan. All they had was a bunch of research that may or may not have led anywhere because there was no strategy or anyone guiding it.

I suspect that Leonard's original plan was so complete and perfect that parts of it are too important and counterproductive to trash.

Are you claiming that Leonard did have a plan so secret that there were no mentions if it anywhere, even to deep Onion members like Jack McBryde. Remember that the reason Jack became disillusioned with the Alignment was that it had deviated from Leonard's plan. If Leonard had had this whole vision that the Alignment later subscribed to, wouldn't they have made it available to the Inner Onion?

It's possible you're right, but highly unlikely. The story that we're told, as guessed by Anton Zilwicki in TEiF, is that Leonard's vision was corrupted.

Moreover, RFC's posts have made that clear. There's a lengthy post of his saying that, effectively, Leonard's vision has come mostly true and he was right all along, it just took way too long with Beowulf's intransigence, which wasn't helped by the fact that Manpower and Mesa were practising genetic slavery. It's just not in the actual books.

In fact, it might not be too late to dust off and fall back to Leonard's original plans.

That's what the Enlightenment is doing.

I never said that Leonard came up with that plan. I am pointing out that Leonard had a plan. Leonard had a vision. How can you agree that the Enlightenment is continuing with Leonard's plan, if Leonard had no plan?

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Didn't you just agree that Leonard did not come up with that plan? He didn't have a plan; at best, he had a vision for uplifting humanity, which the Benign Alignment (now Enlightenment) do subscribe to. But as those have shown us, they had no plan. All they had was a bunch of research that may or may not have led anywhere because there was no strategy or anyone guiding it.
[snip]

Moreover, RFC's posts have made that clear. There's a lengthy post of his saying that, effectively, Leonard's vision has come mostly true and he was right all along, it just took way too long with Beowulf's intransigence, which wasn't helped by the fact that Manpower and Mesa were practising genetic slavery. It's just not in the actual books.

Despite the delays caused by Mesan driven genetic slavery keeping prejudice against "genies" alive the galaxy has come a long way towards Leonard's original vision.

However based on RFC's big post on this 15-Apr-2015, Detweiler Vision vs Beowulf Code: "Right" and "Wrong", they're still not 100% of the way there. It seems like even at the beginning Leonard was in favor of looking beyond the human genetics and potentially incorporating nonhuman or synthetic genetic material; a line which Beowulf still will not cross.

And even back then Leonard seemed explicitly interested in deliberately designing a separate Homo Superior; which is another line Beowulf won't cross. (As RFC explained it they basically see any stratification of humans into genetically quantifiable levels *cough* Alpha, Beta, Gamma lines *cough* as leading inevitably to a reemergence of racism [or something directly analogous to it] and treating members of "less uplifted" lines as somehow less than fully human -- and thus a reemergence of all the evils that gives rise to) Beowulf is happy to help an individual adapt to their environment, or eliminate genetic issues -- but they're dead set against developing broadly applying a fixed pattern of improvement to create a divide between the improved and the unimproved.

Still, the original Beowulf code was very restrictive in an attempt to keep some genetic research and therapy going on in a galaxy horrified by the genetically modified soldiers of Earth's Final War. In a lot of ways an overreaction was what was needed to assure the rest of the galaxy that they wouldn't be pushing those lines -- not anytime soon. And as that horror faded into the background Beowulf relaxed its code. But still not quite as far as I think Leonard would have wanted back when he was a Beowulfan geneticist.

And he points out that even from the beginning Leonard had a different view of the goals of genetic modifications than the consensus of Beowulf's geneticists. As mentioned, they viewed it as an individual thing; genetic therapy or modifications should only be carried out if likely to help this individual thrive. And if enough such individuals exist and procreate then, sure, that might improve the average of the human species (in as much as you can identify a change as a pure improvements). In contrast Leonard viewed genetics from a collective basis -- with the most important thing being improving that human baseline; and so he saw the benefit to a given individual as less important. (This differing focus seems to have lead quite directly to his willingness to do broadly applied genetic experiments to non-consenting population; and to accept the kind of high-risk high-reward tests that, in later times, gave us the tragedy of Francesca Simões)

RFC goes on to say

runsforcelery wrote:Detweiler never envisioned the horrendous dehumanization of genetic slaves. In fact, he never specifically referred to them as “slaves” at all. Don’t get me wrong — for his time, and considering the culture from which he sprang, he was an incredibly ruthless bastard, perfectly prepared to create thousands or even millions of human beings who would be second-class citizens. He had, however, almost a patriarchal perspective on the genetic “indentured servants” he created, and the Mesa constitution’s provision for manumission of genetic slaves was inserted at his insistence. Moreover, he regarded the creation of the “indentured servants” as a priceless opportunity to incorporate superior characteristics into them and (through them, in the fullness of time) into all the rest of the human race. They were to be his laboratory, in which individually valuable genetic traits would be developed, enhanced, and conserved in the process of solving individual specific needs.
[snip]
Detweiler was creating a far larger experimental population with a view towards eventually combining all of those individually engineered traits into a single genetically superior species. As part of his mindset, emancipated “indentured servants” were never supposed to become Seccies. Once they were emancipated, they were supposed to have the vote, to see their children fully integrated into Mesan society, etc. To be honest, that was probably the least realistic of his several unrealistic assumptions of what was possible, but it was fundamental to his own thinking and the moral system which justified everything else he was prepared to do.

So his original vision appears to have already been going off the rails during his lifetime. He wasn't able to prevent the “indentured servant” test subjects from becoming permanent 2nd class Seccies residents (not even citizens). And after his death, and with Beowulf's horrified reaction to that widespread experimentation on the “indentured servants”/"genetic slaves", his successors just became more extreme and paranoid.

A very long way of saying that Leonard had a vision -- but certainly no effective long range plan. Nearly all the long term things the MAlign has done over the centuries -- the Onion, selling genetic slaves outside of Mesa, infiltrating other societies and government, etc. all seem to have arisen after his death as his successors decent into their echo chamber and cut the world off from themselves. His original "plan", such was it was, appears to have been:
1) get out from under Beowulf's thumb (done),
2) begin mass genetic experiments to identify and preserve traits judged (by him) to be beneficial (done),
3) reintegrate those (surviving) trial subject back as full members of society (failed),
4) once "homo superior" lines are finally established somehow convince the rest of the galaxy that they want in on this (a hope/aspiration; not a plan)

That might as well have had "???, profit" as some of the steps. No concrete plan from how to get from here to there.

Jonathan_S wrote:So his original vision appears to have already been going off the rails during his lifetime. He wasn't able to prevent the “indentured servant” test subjects from becoming permanent 2nd class Seccies residents (not even citizens). And after his death, and with Beowulf's horrified reaction to that widespread experimentation on the “indentured servants”/"genetic slaves", his successors just became more extreme and paranoid.

The transition from indentured worker to genetic slave did not occur in Leonard's lifetime. Check the passage in chapter 10 of Storm from the Shadows, pointing to when the Detweilers went underground:

Albrecht nodded slowly. Renzo Kyprianou was in charge of bio-weapons research and development and a member of the Mesan Strategy Council. At the moment, however, not even the Strategy Council knew everything the Alignment was up to.
Not surprisingly, I suppose, he mused, given that the Alignment's always been so much of a . . . family business.
His lips twitched in an almost-smile at the thought, and he wondered how many members of the Strategy Council had figured out just how close he truly was to his "sons."
The official demise of the Detweiler line had been part of the strategy designed to divert the galaxy's—and especially Beowulf's—attention from Leonard Detweiler's determination to uplift human genetics in general. The Detweilers had been too strongly and fiercely devoted to that goal for too long, and the apparent—and spectacular—assassination of the "last" Detweiler heir by greedy elements on the Manpower Incorporated board of directors had punctuated the fact that the increasingly criminal Mesans no longer shared that lofty aspiration. It had also served to get Leonard's descendants safely beneath anyone else's radar, of course, but its most useful function had been to help explain and justify Mesa's switch to the full-bore exploitation of genetic slavery by Manpower. The steady, ongoing improvement of the alignment's own genomes had been buried under Manpower's R&D programs and camouflaged as little more than surface improvements in physical beauty.
But whatever the rest of humanity might have thought, the Detweiler line was far from extinct. In fact, the Detweiler genome was one of the—if not the—most improved within the entire Alignment. And Albrecht Detweiler's "sons" were also his genetic clones. Bardasano, for one, he felt certain, had figured that out, despite how closely held a secret it was supposed to be. It was possible Kyprianou had, as well, given how closely he worked with Daniel. For that matter, Jerome Sandusky might cherish a few suspicions of his own, not that any of that trio was going to breathe a word of any such suspicions to anyone else.

cthia wrote:I never said that Leonard came up with that plan. I am pointing out that Leonard had a plan. Leonard had a vision. How can you agree that the Enlightenment is continuing with Leonard's plan, if Leonard had no plan?

And I'm pointing out that, despite my having used the term incorrectly myself just a few hours ago, Leonard had no plan. He had at best a vision. He published some opinions, both before his exile from Beowulf and after, so his vision is well-known. He began doing something with the founding of Mesa and Manpower, Inc. But it doesn't look like there was a concerted effort to achieve his vision. The Underpants Gnomes had a better plan than Leonard Detweiler.

At least, there's no plan that we know of. If such a plan had existed, it's been thoroughly and intentionally derailed and suppressed by the MAlign because it conflicts with their Detweiler Plan. But I find it hard to believe this because he wasn't being secretive and whatever he did publish would have been archived at Beowulf because he was such a vilified person.

As Jonathan is saying above, any actions of his towards his goal seem to have already gone askew during his own lifetime, and it only got worse after he died and had no voice in the matter. So if had any plan, it was DOA anyway so for all intents and purposes, there was no plan.

cthia wrote:I never said that Leonard came up with that plan. I am pointing out that Leonard had a plan. Leonard had a vision. How can you agree that the Enlightenment is continuing with Leonard's plan, if Leonard had no plan?

ThinksMarkedly wrote:And I'm pointing out that, despite my having used the term incorrectly myself just a few hours ago, Leonard had no plan. He had at best a vision. He published some opinions, both before his exile from Beowulf and after, so his vision is well-known. He began doing something with the founding of Mesa and Manpower, Inc. But it doesn't look like there was a concerted effort to achieve his vision. The Underpants Gnomes had a better plan than Leonard Detweiler.

At least, there's no plan that we know of. If such a plan had existed, it's been thoroughly and intentionally derailed and suppressed by the MAlign because it conflicts with their Detweiler Plan. But I find it hard to believe this because he wasn't being secretive and whatever he did publish would have been archived at Beowulf because he was such a vilified person.

As Jonathan is saying above, any actions of his towards his goal seem to have already gone askew during his own lifetime, and it only got worse after he died and had no voice in the matter. So if had any plan, it was DOA anyway so for all intents and purposes, there was no plan.

I think that you are quibbling over semantics; the "vision" was a "plan" that involved using indentured servants as a test bed for the uplift of the species. The quote from Storm from the Shadows makes it clear that he was not as vilified as the Mesan Board became after the assassination of his descendant and it was only with the ascendance of that board that his vision was finally subverted long after his death.