Should Honor really have been charged?

cthia wrote:

Dr. Arroway wrote:Funny how different readers have "issues" with different parts of the books.

I am an engineer myself and had no problem at all with this part of the story.
The structure was finished, it was not some temporary contraption. It was supposed to "stand for good". And indeed the "accident" happened because of the sabotage, not because the children were let into a "work in progress area".

It's consistent, I don't see the problem.

What immediately comes to mind is Duckk's response to my fanfic post..."I has a sad face. "

Because you are an engineer. Have you ever attended any of these National Safety Meetings? It always amazes me, no...confounds me, the difference in opinions between engineers. I have noticed, that engineers who have witnessed the horrors first hand have a very different attitude than others. Have you personally seen death and dismemberment? Have you witnessed people taking their last breath? Have you witnessed physical horrors that even has the EMT's choking on their own upchuck? Have you yourself ever gone into an unstoppable fit of onsite regurgitation? Have you ever witnessed engineers witnessing their first time horrors so severe that they resigned? Resigned not from that job, but from that career?!

And all of this, Dr. Arroway, is considering only the victims who knew the dangers. Who have signed on to work in the profession. Once seen, there is no way you could want anyone to suffer those atrocities, much less an innocent.

The structure was finished.

The structure was not finished. The footings were not properly executed. Therefore, the structure was not finished. This is a prime example of why OSHA does not allow the public on unfinished sites. They are not finished until OSHA says they are finished.

I understand that you are passionate about this issue. I understand that you are arguing from present day real life situations. I think, however, that you need to stop conflating what you may have experienced in real life, which includes what I do not doubt for a moment are valid safety concerns, and the situation in the book.

Obviously, since the kids died, the site was not safe. However, the site was not safe only because it had been sabotaged, and it had already passed all of the quality control standards imposed by the relevant authorities, including analysis of samples of the ceramacrete. Now, one may argue that the sampling technique called for was insufficient, since it did not contemplate the possibility that someone would deliberately fuse only the surface layers of the ceramacrete. The samples that were taken, however, showed that the ceramacrete fully met code standards, and there was no way for anyone to know that the footings had been deliberately compromised by Honor's enemies. Everyone involved — except the saboteurs — had done their due diligence to the best of their knowledge and ability. Effectively, "OSHA" had said they were finished. I don't know how much clearer I can make that.

FIE wrote:
A group of kids — students-to-be in the middle school — had asked permission to watch the completion of the main dome, and their teachers, after checking with the site supervisors, had organized a field trip. Needless to say, the Sky Domes staff had impressed them with the dangers the construction equipment represented, and Grayson children learned early to take adults' warnings to heart. They were well back under the completed eastern wall, and they were staying there, but that didn't mute their avid interest. He could see their excitement even from here as they watched the panels drifting upward on their counter-grav like some sort of impossibly beautiful seedpods and chattered to one another, and he smiled. He'd talked to some of those youngsters himself this morning, and two or three of them had looked like they had the makings of good engineers.

He let his eyes sweep proudly back up the glittering wall above the kids . . . and that meant he saw it all happen.

These kids are nowhere near the site where construction is still underway. They are standing under a completed structure, a mile away from what's still under construction, which has been inspected by the Mueller Steading building inspectors. They were not admitted to the site until that inspection had been completed. The collapse had nothing to do with the portions of the school project which were still under construction.

I don't see how I can put it any more clearly, and if it isn't clear from my comments, I am just a bit tired of the way in which this deceased equine is being belabored. If you have a problem with real life failures of OSHA, then I invite you to discuss that in one of the other forums. The problems that you are describing, while no doubt real and no doubt deadly upon occasion, do not in my opinion apply to the inspected and tested — but sabotaged — structure described in the book. I have no objection whatsoever to your continuing this discussion in Politics, and I do not for a moment doubt that it is a valid concern in real life, but I'd really, really appreciate it if we could terminate it here.

SWM wrote:I'm sorry, Cthia, but if you are going to take the stance that you can't allow people to enter if there is any chance whatsoever, including sabotage, that something will collapse, the no one could ever enter any building again.

As stated before, the section that the children were in was already inspected, and declared safe. That section was even safer than any modern building. Sure, sabotage or terrorism could bring it down, but that's true of every structure in the world.

The stance that I am taking, is the same stance that OSHA takes. You cannot allow the public on completely unfinished construction sites. Because untoward things happen. OSHA, and anyone with experience knows that anything can, will, and have gone awry. OSHA, and I, am aware that sabotage is all too very common...technically. Sabotage Happens Lots!

When concrete mixes have been tainted, by adding water and or trash to stretch the pour, somewhere between the concrete company and the construction site...that...is...sabotage.

When lesser materials than are called for is used on projects, for whatever reason...that...is...sabotage.

When shortcuts are employed, and I can list pages, that shouldn't be...that...is...sabotage.

When water is added to concrete on the site, because stiff concrete is difficult to work with...that...is...sabotage.

When improper rivet guns are used...that...is...sabotage.

I can go on. Sabotage isn't new to construction sites.

There used to be a time when companies will hire the lowest bidder. That practice killed many a company. Companies will bid dangerously, insanely low because they desperately needed, wanted the contract. When they cannot deliver. Safety suffers, in the form of cost-cutting. From using low-grade inferior, rejected materials that should have been discarded, or just plain low-grade substandard materials, to hiring cheap unqualified workers, to carrying on with construction in non-amenable weather. Construction sites are no place for even a single child. Adults are dying on these sites. Shit doesn't just happen on construction sites. Shit is shipped in. OSHA allows for it by saying 'hell no, you can't go. And rightly so.'

Early on in my career. I was a wetback. Burning the candle at both ends...computers...engineering. A Construction Foreman onsite for the particular company was hated. He wouldn't allow gf's to visit workers. He would blister steel off girders, and sent many gf's packing. He knew the dangers of these sites. He had witnessed the dangers. He cared more for their wives, gf's than they did. This guy has an engineering degree. Could be argued that he's overqualified for Construction Foreman since many companies only require a high school diploma and appropriate experience. I ran into him again 8 years later. I hired him. My boss agrees that he's the best damn recruit we ever concluded. Once you see first hand the dangers, you'll shit hot bricks at the thought of kids on an unfinished site. I witnessed a man's leg torn from his body on a finished site! An inebriated heavy equipment operator was removing the equipment.

Cithia: I have personally seen the results when someone turned themselves into hamburger when their sleeve got caught in a 14" lathe proceeding to pull the rest of their body along for the ride. Squish blam boom. Human body turned into hamburger at 120RPM.

That being said. Partially finished work sites host functions ALL the time. They clean that section up, cordon off the rest...

OSHA and "safety" engineers by and large are populated by a bunch of ninny ignorant morons who don't know which end of a screw driver to hold as they never have and couldn't find their own ass even with an INS, nav beacons, compass, and their two hands. I have yet to meet one who actually worked extensively in the industry before becoming a nanny bureaucrat. They all either have None, 0, de nada, work experience in said field, or "worked" in it for about a year and then figured out they could "work" by standing around with a clip board, a pen, and a private car doing QA.

Most accidents happen because workers get lazy, or tired, or tired and then get lazy. See my hamburger example. See your leg torn off example. Neither of which had anything to do with OSHA reqs as in both cases both were in compliance with OSHA reqs. Of course both forgot common sense. In my case the guy was tired and lazy, and in your case the guy was plain stupid. What? You going to demand every machine has an inebriation start switch like on cars, just to "save" that one in a million chance.

So, number of machines that now need said new "inebriator device" is going to be upwards of a million. Cost per device that will last say... 10 years before replacement will come out to about oh, $100 a year, just to throw a crude number at it. Now add all the lost time of the operator and all those waiting extra time for the operator to breathe into said machine and start. So, add another several thousand dollars a year to the cost of said inebriation device. So, several Billion dollars.

How much is a life worth? Well, If I make on average, lets be very generous and say $100,000 a year, over my lifetime working life of 50 years, I will make a whopping 5 million before taxes, if I am lucky. Lets say even the guy who got his leg lopped off now has to find different work. So, the dude went from $100,000 to $50,000 a year. More likely is he will now be making MORE as heavy construction pays fairly poorly compared to desk jobs. True, when one has work, the pay can be excellent, but there will also be LONG dry spells where you are making NOTHING.

Total #machines * inebriator devices/lives saved and injuries(lost income) due to intoxication.

Invariably said new "safety" device does nothing but inhibit work. So, now capital expense of a project is far greater as the job now takes longer. Up front costs are far larger as now all the machines are also more expensive to purchase, maintain, and operate. Pretty soon, jobs that should take a day, now take weeks as one has to get all the bureaucrats bought off with all of their "permits" and "certificates", turning a $1000 job into $30,000. In the end one cannot compete and guess what? All the jobs go elsewhere.

In the end, OSHA regs are only followed when the douche inspectors come around which leads to accidents. Why? Because it breeds contempt for the good regs and the bad regs without prejudice. Thus, even though most Regs are pure common sense, because the good regs are mandated before even starting a project along with all of the moronical Regs, the common worker grumbles and simply refuses to do any of them even though the worker via common sense and self preservation would freely do most of them.

What are the most used step(s) on a ladder? The OSHA steps of course.

Sorry for soap boxing, but man, regs on top of regs really really annoy me. You get these "safety" inspectors/enginners who have to justify their salary who sit on their buns all day dreaming up new regs because they are getting paid and have to justify their pay and "show" they deserve a "pay raise". Look at this NEW SHINNYYYY reg I wrote and got passed! I must deserve more money! It is the end user who should validate for common sense. Go work elsewhere. Join a union to get a certain aspect of your job fixed. Disband the union after said problem is fixed, of course this never happens so you have good intentioned people who now do nothing but sit on their buns collecting other peoples money and want to keep the monopoly running as lets face it, most are lazy, and quite a few are power hungry. So, unions who most certainly did have a very genuine and deep seeded need and purpose have now been hijacked and deservedly get a bad rap.

Bah

They most important issue, why the author is completely right, is that Harrington stands on the far sides of two millennia of advances on computational and theoretical advances advances in engineering practice. Matters that we might not support have centuries since been entirely solved. We see here a recycle of the argument over State Security using all software locks on their missile warheads at the time of Ooops! Our primitive ideas on engineering are not terrible significant.

I am reminded of a time when digital electronic radio keys for cars were ridiculed, but my retired colleague now has one for his Maserati, and views it so far as I can tell as far better and more reliable than a primitive mechanical substitute.

The whole field of OH&S can be contentious. I'm sure we've all seen photos of extraordinarily dangerous practices in developing countries. The current scandal is in Brazil where workers are dying while constructing soccer stadiums under unsafe conditions.

I've had experience with the other extreme though on a few occasions. One idiot grounded our Chinook helicopter fleet because field maintenance has to be done using fold down steps and our national industrial guidelines said we had to use scaffolding over a certain height (in active duty?), and another pointed out that employees in hazardous work circumstances MUST wear hi visibility vests - our SAS wanted to have a talk with him after he insisted they follow regulations. Both took special amendments to national law to shut them up.
On another occasion our F111 fleet was grounded because the briefing room may have had sewerage fumes present. As the CO said "These pilots were going out to fly at Mach 2 a few metres above the tree line and it was felt that a possible smell may have been hazardous".

In this instance I'm amazed that the topic was even considered, and believe that RFC was much more polite than I would have been in his place. His universe his rules, but, in our country as of now, once a section of a construction has been certified finished and safe there would be no thought of safety issues for visitors.

cthia wrote:Out of respect for the author, this thread is over.
Please!

Your the one that has been driving the thread. Asking everyone else to let the thread die when you wont... Well that just seems... silly...

Anyways!... i only skimmed the thread myself, but it seems that you want everyone to walk around with bubble wrap on while you pad every corner because of safety hazards. Somewhat sarcastic, but there it is.

Problem is there are too many sharp corners in the world. Cars can be very deadly, and in fact hundreds of people die every day because of them. Should we all go back to horse and carriages though?
Should we all walk to work wearing a helmet because we might slip on a pebble and crack our skulls open on a stray rock?

At the end of the day you minimize the realistic risks and you get on with your life.

Letting children under a finished section posed no more risk than putting modern day students on a school bus and driving them to school. Less in fact, looking at the number of traffic accidents we have.

And if the dome had been finished and children were allowed under it, it still would have eventually collapsed because of the sabotage. Even more children would have died. And it wouldn't have been an "Active" Construction site. All those OSHA safety regs would have done nothing to prevent it.


At the end of the day, crap happens, and no amount of bubble wrap will prevent it. The best you can do is live your life and hope not to get hit by lighting. And if it is your time to get hit by lighting, don't shake your first at the sky and try to press charges or sue.

Topic over.