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Sonja Hemphill

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Re: Sonja Hemphill
Post by runsforcelery   » Sun Jun 22, 2014 3:46 pm

runsforcelery
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cthia wrote:I found it interesting in the fleet games, when it was hinted on the flavor of tactics indicative of Hemphill. She wasn't the subtle type fighter, yet more of a material fighter who would bore right in with overwhelming odds — win by attrition. It seems to parallel the jeune ecole material kind of warfare. Even though it didn't help him, this is how D'Orville picked up on something being amiss when Honor set him up. It wasn't Sonja's style. Sonja's style reminds me of Sandra Crandall, except that Sonja knows she's playing with superior hardware!

I didn't like this about the jeune ecole...
Her mind begin to pick and pry at the problem. It was probable, she decided, that she could get away with it at least once, assuming the Aggressors hadn't cracked Hemphill's security. After all, the idea was so crazy no sane person would expect it!

Suppose she arranged to join one of the screening squadrons? That was a logical enough position for a light cruiser, and the big boys would tend to ignore Fearless to concentrate on the opposing capital ships. That might let her slip into lance range and get off her shot. It would be little better than a suicide run, but that wouldn't bother Hemphill's cronies. They'd consider trading a light cruiser (and its crew) for an enemy dreadnought or superdreadnought more than equitable, which was one reason Honor hated their so-called tactical doctrine.

Because a light cruiser with your MVP is more valuable than a fleet of Superdreadnaughts!

A moral question. What is Honor worth in ships and lives? How many Superdreadnaughts and lives would you be willing to sacrifice to save Honor? That's one hell of a sobering question.



The only problem is that in most ways, the jeune ecole was right. It's worth noting here that Honor was prejudiced against jeuene ecole thinking for four main reasons.

(1) She didn't know about Garm or the rest of King Roger's secret R&D programs. As a result, she didn't know that Hemphill's pursuit of a "panacea" to solve the material warfare school's problems was actually based on a rather realistic assessment of weapons projects under current development. To be fair, virtually none of the other members of the jeuene ecole knew that any more than Honor did, but one can argue (indeed, Honor would argue) that her own use of LACs is not all that different from using a CL to kill an SD. The tradeoff in lives and material is vastly on favor of "using up" a squadron or two or three of LACs to take out a single SD, and she knows it. In that sense, Honor has matured as a tactician since OBS.

(2) Honor's rejection of the jeuene ecole (and its willingness to accept deliberately sacrificial tactics) owed a great deal to her study of naval history and to the fact that naval battles for the last couple of hundred years had all been attritional and yet had seldom been decisive when they were fought between equivalent opponents. Because of the ability of the weaker fleet to break off and run for it, simple attrition seemed to her to have demonstrated its futility as a war winner, which meant that ultimately total casualties would probably be higher than they might have been otherwise because the war would stretch on longer (in the absence of decisive battles). In short, she recognized that something new was needed to break the existing tactical paradigm's sterility, but she didn't believe the jeune ecole had the answer (which, based on known hardware, it did not) and rejected (and resented) the willingness of a bunch of armchair strategists pining for weapons it did not (and, so far as she knew, would not) possess to embrace the sacrifice of real, breathing human beings in pursuit of pie-in-the-sky, "gimmickry-based" tactics.

(3) Manticore possessed the smaller fleet. Attrition usually works best for the larger fleet, which can absorb the losses it accepts and keep on coming until it grinds the smaller fleet into dust. Honor believed that Manticore needed tactics which would overcome that numerical disadvantage and, so far as she or anyone outside Gram knew, she had to find them using conventional weapons which were only incrementally superior to those of Haven. In other words, she felt that the jeune ecole, with known weapons capabilities, was a strategic and tactical dead end at a time when Manticore couldn't afford to allow anything to divert it from the search for "real world" solutions using "real world" hardware and capabilities.

(4) Honor saw (as Hemphill did; give her her due) that tactics ultimately depend on the balance of weapons-vs-platforms. By this, I mean that if you have a weapon that can be decisive, it normally needs to be mounted in a platform which will allow it to be decisive. Historically, the reason capital ships have existed is simply that they represent the most effective means of projecting and focusing combat power. Another way to look at that would be to say that the deploying power gets the most efficient use of manpower and material by creating a 30,000-ton WWI-era dreadnought battleship (let's say) which can readily engage and destroy an entire 6-ship squadron of 8,000-ton cruisers under anticipated battle conditions. The dreadnought has a crew of perhaps 700-800, the cruiser squadron has a combined crew requirement of 1,800 to 2,400, and the dreadnought displaces 30,000 tons whereas the cruisers displace 48,000 tons. Of course, the cruisers can be built much more rapidly and so can be replaced a lot faster than the dreadnought could be, but the dreadnought can almost certainly be repaired and returned to service much more rapidly than the equivalent tonnage of cruisers can be placed in service from a standing start. And, of course, none of the above considers the purely morale effect of sending out the cruisers when every man aboard them knows they're almost certain to be sunk without taking down the dreadnought with them. To Honor's thinking, this meant that tactics had to be built around platforms and weapons concepts which would permit battles to be won under normal combat conditions, good or bad, but on the basis of what she knew about near-future weapon systems, the jeune ecole seemed to be advocating "one off" solutions. That is, they seemed to her to rely on either accepting a loss rate she knew the RMN couldn't sustain against superior PN numbers or introducing a surprise weapon or maneuver which would produce victory despite the PN's numerical superiority. She didn't believe the first option was possible, and she gave the Peeps credit for being smart enough to adapt their own tactics to deal with any surprise weapons or maneuvers before they lost the war. Had she seen missile pods or --- especially --- the MDM and FTL communications coming in OBS, her attitude towards the jeune ecole would have been very different. Indeed, I would argue that you can see it beginning to evolve, whether she herself recognized it or not, as early as Honor of the Queen when she still had no clue about what was about to come out of Gram.

The point of all of the above is that Honor was a superior, pragmatic tactician who insisted (correctly) that tactical doctrine must be based upon the actual capabilities of the tonnages and weapons one has rather than on the tonnages and weapons one wishes one had. She didn't think the jeune ecole was doing that. For that matter, Hemphill probably didn't think most of the jeune ecole was doing that. Those members of it who didn't know about Gram or the work already ongoing on Ghostrider were basing their hopes on those incremental systems superiorities which were public knowledge (at least within the RMN), and that incremental superiority was insufficient to make the jeune ecole's rejection of "conventional" tactical wisdom effective. Even Hamish Alexander, who was in a better position than most to know what was happening behind the scenes, had no concept of everything that was being worked out in Gryphon orbit. Both he and Honor (and Hemphill, really) would have agreed that in the absence of Gram, victory had to be found in some development or adaptation of existing tactical thinking that took into account the increased lethality of the laserhead.

I would also point out (as I have before) that Hemphill never envisioned Fearless as a prototype for some sort of SD-killing cruiser class. Fearless was a test bed for the weapons package she mounted, and the purpose of creating a test bed was to evaluate it in fleet maneuvers. She never saw it as anything else, but when Honor potted D'Orville's flagship in a successful surprise attack, Sonja was delighted (in no small part because of the past history between her and D'Orville). She would have been more than human (which she is not) not to have wanted to do it again and not to have "proven" she'd been right in the rest of the maneuvers. She was disappointed when that didn't happen, and as Adcock and Roger knew about her from the beginning, her "people skills" were . . . underdeveloped. It's hardly surprising that her disappointment and frustration manifested to those about her (including Honor) as anger at the messenger rather than at the message.

Finally, about the notion that "a light cruiser with your MVP is more valuable than a fleet of Superdreadnaughts!" This is, unfortunately, not true. Or, to put it another way, what the hell is your MVP doing aboard a light cruiser in the first place? Honor was not the Star Kingdom's MVP in OBS. She was an outstanding junior starship commander who had a long way to go before she emerged as Fleet Admiral Alexander-Harrington. Had she died fighting Sirius, she might have become one of the great "what ifs" or the RMN in retrospect, but at the time such speculation would have been badly misplaced. The greatest fighting admirals in history all came up through smaller ships and junior roles. There is no way of knowing how many potential "MVPs" died along the way, but I strongly suspect that the number of dead potential MVPs greatly exceeds the number who made it through the winnowing process. The history of the Honorverse would have been unrecognizably different if she'd died in Basilisk . . . but no one in the Honorverse would have known it.

There's another aspect to the question of how many SDs Honor Alexander-Harrington's life would be worth, too. If she died now --- circa A Rising Thunder --- her death would cost very little outside the personal grief and loss it would entail. She's done her job. She's been fundamental in creating the GA and the rapprochement between Haven and Manticore. She's changed Grayson beyond recognition. She's contributed to the strategic direction of the war against the SL. She's helped unmask the MA. And, most importantly of all, perhaps, she's helped train an entire generation of RMN officers who will carry on for her if something happens to her. Completely aside from all moral consideration of expending hundreds or thousands of live to preserve hers because of how much "one life worth" (which, BTW, is a concept Honor herself would completely reject), Honor's death in action at this time would be of incredible value to the RMN. The SEM and the GA would lose whatever services she might yet perform (and I'm not trying to minimize her potential future achievements), but the RMN --- and the entire Grand Alliance, for that matter --- would get a modern Edward Saganami whose value as inspiration, role model, and rallying point would be literally incalculable. Remember the Grayson's reaction to her "execution" in Basilisk. Now project that same sort of reaction across the entire GA.

Would you really want to be the Mesan Alignment after killing Honor Harrington? :twisted:


"Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as Piglet came back from the dead.
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Re: Sonja Hemphill
Post by cthia   » Sun Jun 22, 2014 5:13 pm

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 14951
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

cthia wrote:
I found it interesting in the fleet games, when it was hinted on the flavor of tactics indicative of Hemphill. She wasn't the subtle type fighter, yet more of a material fighter who would bore right in with overwhelming odds — win by attrition. It seems to parallel the jeune ecole material kind of warfare. Even though it didn't help him, this is how D'Orville picked up on something being amiss when Honor set him up. It wasn't Sonja's style. Sonja's style reminds me of Sandra Crandall, except that Sonja knows she's playing with superior hardware!

I didn't like this about the jeune ecole...
Her mind begin to pick and pry at the problem. It was probable, she decided, that she could get away with it at least once, assuming the Aggressors hadn't cracked Hemphill's security. After all, the idea was so crazy no sane person would expect it!

Suppose she arranged to join one of the screening squadrons? That was a logical enough position for a light cruiser, and the big boys would tend to ignore Fearless to concentrate on the opposing capital ships. That might let her slip into lance range and get off her shot. It would be little better than a suicide run, but that wouldn't bother Hemphill's cronies. They'd consider trading a light cruiser (and its crew) for an enemy dreadnought or superdreadnought more than equitable, which was one reason Honor hated their so-called tactical doctrine.

Because a light cruiser with your MVP is more valuable than a fleet of Superdreadnaughts!

A moral question. What is Honor worth in ships and lives? How many Superdreadnaughts and lives would you be willing to sacrifice to save Honor? That's one hell of a sobering question.


runsforcelery wrote:
The only problem is that in most ways, the jeune ecole was right. It's worth noting here that Honor was prejudiced against jeuene ecole thinking for four main reasons.

(1) She didn't know about Garm or the rest of King Roger's secret R&D programs. As a result, she didn't know that Hemphill's pursuit of a "panacea" to solve the material warfare school's problems was actually based on a rather realistic assessment of weapons projects under current development. To be fair, virtually none of the other members of the jeuene ecole knew that any more than Honor did, but one can argue (indeed, Honor would argue) that her own use of LACs is not all that different from using a CL to kill an SD. The tradeoff in lives and material is vastly on favor of "using up" a squadron or two or three of LACs to take out a single SD, and she knows it. In that sense, Honor has matured as a tactician since OBS.

(2) Honor's rejection of the jeuene ecole (and its willingness to accept deliberately sacrificial tactics) owed a great deal to her study of naval history and to the fact that naval battles for the last couple of hundred years had all been attritional and yet had seldom been decisive when they were fought between equivalent opponents. Because of the ability of the weaker fleet to break off and run for it, simple attrition seemed to her to have demonstrated its futility as a war winner, which meant that ultimately total casualties would probably be higher than they might have been otherwise because the war would stretch on longer (in the absence of decisive battles). In short, she recognized that something new was needed to break the existing tactical paradigm's sterility, but she didn't believe the jeune ecole had the answer (which, based on known hardware, it did not) and rejected (and resented) the willingness of a bunch of armchair strategists pining for weapons it did not (and, so far as she knew, would not) possess to embrace the sacrifice of real, breathing human beings in pursuit of pie-in-the-sky, "gimmickry-based" tactics.

(3) Manticore possessed the smaller fleet. Attrition usually works best for the larger fleet, which can absorb the losses it accepts and keep on coming until it grinds the smaller fleet into dust. Honor believed that Manticore needed tactics which would overcome that numerical disadvantage and, so far as she or anyone outside Gram knew, she had to find them using conventional weapons which were only incrementally superior to those of Haven. In other words, she felt that the jeune ecole, with known weapons capabilities, was a strategic and tactical dead end at a time when Manticore couldn't afford to allow anything to divert it from the search for "real world" solutions using "real world" hardware and capabilities.

(4) Honor saw (as Hemphill did; give her her due) that tactics ultimately depend on the balance of weapons-vs-platforms. By this, I mean that if you have a weapon that can be decisive, it normally needs to be mounted in a platform which will allow it to be decisive. Historically, the reason capital ships have existed is simply that they represent the most effective means of projecting and focusing combat power. Another way to look at that would be to say that the deploying power gets the most efficient use of manpower and material by creating a 30,000-ton WWI-era dreadnought battleship (let's say) which can readily engage and destroy an entire 6-ship squadron of 8,000-ton cruisers under anticipated battle conditions. The dreadnought has a crew of perhaps 700-800, the cruiser squadron has a combined crew requirement of 1,800 to 2,400, and the dreadnought displaces 30,000 tons whereas the cruisers displace 48,000 tons. Of course, the cruisers can be built much more rapidly and so can be replaced a lot faster than the dreadnought could be, but the dreadnought can almost certainly be repaired and returned to service much more rapidly than the equivalent tonnage of cruisers can be placed in service from a standing start. And, of course, none of the above considers the purely morale effect of sending out the cruisers when every man aboard them knows they're almost certain to be sunk without taking down the dreadnought with them. To Honor's thinking, this meant that tactics had to be built around platforms and weapons concepts which would permit battles to be won under normal combat conditions, good or bad, but on the basis of what she knew about near-future weapon systems, the jeune ecole seemed to be advocating "one off" solutions. That is, they seemed to her to rely on either accepting a loss rate she knew the RMN couldn't sustain against superior PN numbers or introducing a surprise weapon or maneuver which would produce victory despite the PN's numerical superiority. She didn't believe the first option was possible, and she gave the Peeps credit for being smart enough to adapt their own tactics to deal with any surprise weapons or maneuvers before they lost the war. Had she seen missile pods or --- especially --- the MDM and FTL communications coming in OBS, her attitude towards the jeune ecole would have been very different. Indeed, I would argue that you can see it beginning to evolve, whether she herself recognized it or not, as early as Honor of the Queen when she still had no clue about what was about to come out of Gram.

The point of all of the above is that Honor was a superior, pragmatic tactician who insisted (correctly) that tactical doctrine must be based upon the actual capabilities of the tonnages and weapons one has rather than on the tonnages and weapons one wishes one had. She didn't think the jeune ecole was doing that. For that matter, Hemphill probably didn't think most of the jeune ecole was doing that. Those members of it who didn't know about Gram or the work already ongoing on Ghostrider were basing their hopes on those incremental systems superiorities which were public knowledge (at least within the RMN), and that incremental superiority was insufficient to make the jeune ecole's rejection of "conventional" tactical wisdom effective. Even Hamish Alexander, who was in a better position than most to know what was happening behind the scenes, had no concept of everything that was being worked out in Gryphon orbit. Both he and Honor (and Hemphill, really) would have agreed that in the absence of Gram, victory had to be found in some development or adaptation of existing tactical thinking that took into account the increased lethality of the laserhead.

I would also point out (as I have before) that Hemphill never envisioned Fearless as a prototype for some sort of SD-killing cruiser class. Fearless was a test bed for the weapons package she mounted, and the purpose of creating a test bed was to evaluate it in fleet maneuvers. She never saw it as anything else, but when Honor potted D'Orville's flagship in a successful surprise attack, Sonja was delighted (in no small part because of the past history between her and D'Orville). She would have been more than human (which she is not) not to have wanted to do it again and not to have "proven" she'd been right in the rest of the maneuvers. She was disappointed when that didn't happen, and as Adcock and Roger knew about her from the beginning, her "people skills" were . . . underdeveloped. It's hardly surprising that her disappointment and frustration manifested to those about her (including Honor) as anger at the messenger rather than at the message.

Finally, about the notion that "a light cruiser with your MVP is more valuable than a fleet of Superdreadnaughts!" This is, unfortunately, not true. Or, to put it another way, what the hell is your MVP doing aboard a light cruiser in the first place? Honor was not the Star Kingdom's MVP in OBS. She was an outstanding junior starship commander who had a long way to go before she emerged as Fleet Admiral Alexander-Harrington. Had she died fighting Sirius, she might have become one of the great "what ifs" or the RMN in retrospect, but at the time such speculation would have been badly misplaced. The greatest fighting admirals in history all came up through smaller ships and junior roles. There is no way of knowing how many potential "MVPs" died along the way, but I strongly suspect that the number of dead potential MVPs greatly exceeds the number who made it through the winnowing process. The history of the Honorverse would have been unrecognizably different if she'd died in Basilisk . . . but no one in the Honorverse would have known it.

There's another aspect to the question of how many SDs Honor Alexander-Harrington's life would be worth, too. If she died now --- circa A Rising Thunder --- her death would cost very little outside the personal grief and loss it would entail. She's done her job. She's been fundamental in creating the GA and the rapprochement between Haven and Manticore. She's changed Grayson beyond recognition. She's contributed to the strategic direction of the war against the SL. She's helped unmask the MA. And, most importantly of all, perhaps, she's helped train an entire generation of RMN officers who will carry on for her if something happens to her. Completely aside from all moral consideration of expending hundreds or thousands of live to preserve hers because of how much "one life worth" (which, BTW, is a concept Honor herself would completely reject), Honor's death in action at this time would be of incredible value to the RMN. The SEM and the GA would lose whatever services she might yet perform (and I'm not trying to minimize her potential future achievements), but the RMN --- and the entire Grand Alliance, for that matter --- would get a modern Edward Saganami whose value as inspiration, role model, and rallying point would be literally incalculable. Remember the Grayson's reaction to her "execution" in Basilisk. Now project that same sort of reaction across the entire GA.

Would you really want to be the Mesan Alignment after killing Honor Harrington? :twisted:


First off RFC, thanks for bringing it to my escaped attention, in a previous post, that Sonja was Janacek's cousin. I read it but didn't assimilate it. Doh!

In answer to your final question of this post...
No sir! Uh uh!! Not...a...chance!!!


There's another aspect to the question of how many SDs Honor Alexander-Harrington's life would be worth, too. If she died now --- circa A Rising Thunder --- her death would cost very little outside the personal grief and loss it would entail. She's done her job. She's been fundamental in creating the GA and the rapprochement between Haven and Manticore. She's changed Grayson beyond recognition. She's contributed to the strategic direction of the war against the SL. She's helped unmask the MA. And, most importantly of all, perhaps, she's helped train an entire generation of RMN officers who will carry on for her if something happens to her.

Truly RFC, somewhere in one of your books, leaflet I'm thinking, you should include this. Damn passage had me tearing up! Whew! Now that's an impressive resume. Rose, can I borrow tissue? I, I...seem to be out. 'snif'

But I'm a bit paranoid. It frightens me this post. You wouldn't be preparing me for the untimely loss of Honor because I'm her biggest fan would you?

About that 'light cruiser' thing, didn't Honor have a nasty habit of choosing less armored ships as her flag, particularly because the enemy would expect her to be aboard an SD? Or is the big difference that she'd at least choose a ship of the wall? Glad you brought that up, because she seemed to have a nasty habit, much to my chagrin, of flying her flag not on the most armored. Saved her bacon a time or two as well, if I remember correctly.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Sonja Hemphill
Post by munroburton   » Sun Jun 22, 2014 5:33 pm

munroburton
Admiral

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cthia wrote:About that 'light cruiser' thing, didn't Honor have a nasty habit of choosing less armored ships as her flag, particularly because the enemy would expect her to be aboard an SD? Or is the big difference that she'd at least choose a ship of the wall? Glad you brought that up, because she seemed to have a nasty habit, much to my chagrin, of flying her flag not on the most armored. Saved her bacon a time or two as well, if I remember correctly.


Not really. The only time she took an understrength flagship was at Cerberus, when she was desperately short on experienced COs. Another time she inflicted 'weakness' on herself could be when she assigned the worst of her crew drafts to Wayfarer. Another possibility is Werewolf at Sidemore, though an empty CLAC is a low-priority target.

If you want to find people who ride around in battlecruiser flagships after SD/SD(P)s become available, check out Tourville and Henke.
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Re: Sonja Hemphill
Post by Roguevictory   » Sun Jun 22, 2014 5:35 pm

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munroburton wrote:
cthia wrote:About that 'light cruiser' thing, didn't Honor have a nasty habit of choosing less armored ships as her flag, particularly because the enemy would expect her to be aboard an SD? Or is the big difference that she'd at least choose a ship of the wall? Glad you brought that up, because she seemed to have a nasty habit, much to my chagrin, of flying her flag not on the most armored. Saved her bacon a time or two as well, if I remember correctly.


Not really. The only time she took an understrength flagship was at Cerberus, when she was desperately short on experienced COs. Another time she inflicted 'weakness' on herself could be when she assigned the worst of her crew drafts to Wayfarer. Another possibility is Werewolf at Sidemore, though an empty CLAC is a low-priority target.

If you want to find people who ride around in battlecruiser flagships after SD/SD(P)s become available, check out Tourville and Henke.


Yeah as much as I love small and midsized warships picking one as a flagship when you have large warships in the fleet is nuts.
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Re: Sonja Hemphill
Post by munroburton   » Sun Jun 22, 2014 6:02 pm

munroburton
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Roguevictory wrote:Yeah as much as I love small and midsized warships picking one as a flagship when you have large warships in the fleet is nuts.


There are some small advantages, one of which is temporary in nature. Sometimes a flag officer has gotten their flagship trained and doesn't have time to break in a new crew. We saw Honor take on many of Sarnow's headaches and that was technically before a war started!

In fleet combat, a smaller ship has as much chance of surviving as any individual waller, as the missiles won't be prioritised upon them. That probably affected the Havenites more, as the Manticorans with their better missile seekers would probably suffer fewer "lost" missiles that end up reacquiring smaller ships.
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Re: Sonja Hemphill
Post by roseandheather   » Sun Jun 22, 2014 6:18 pm

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munroburton wrote:
Roguevictory wrote:Yeah as much as I love small and midsized warships picking one as a flagship when you have large warships in the fleet is nuts.


There are some small advantages, one of which is temporary in nature. Sometimes a flag officer has gotten their flagship trained and doesn't have time to break in a new crew. We saw Honor take on many of Sarnow's headaches and that was technically before a war started!

In fleet combat, a smaller ship has as much chance of surviving as any individual waller, as the missiles won't be prioritised upon them. That probably affected the Havenites more, as the Manticorans with their better missile seekers would probably suffer fewer "lost" missiles that end up reacquiring smaller ships.


See also: Michelle Henke, who specifically noted that she refused to switch flagships because she didn't want to break in a new flag captain. In that case, the smooth working relationship she had with Captain Armstrong was more important than the size of her flagship.
~*~


I serve at the pleasure of President Pritchart.

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"You'll remember me when the west wind moves upon the fields of barley..."
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Re: Sonja Hemphill
Post by Roguevictory   » Sun Jun 22, 2014 7:53 pm

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munroburton wrote:
Roguevictory wrote:Yeah as much as I love small and midsized warships picking one as a flagship when you have large warships in the fleet is nuts.


There are some small advantages, one of which is temporary in nature. Sometimes a flag officer has gotten their flagship trained and doesn't have time to break in a new crew. We saw Honor take on many of Sarnow's headaches and that was technically before a war started!

In fleet combat, a smaller ship has as much chance of surviving as any individual waller, as the missiles won't be prioritised upon them. That probably affected the Havenites more, as the Manticorans with their better missile seekers would probably suffer fewer "lost" missiles that end up reacquiring smaller ships.



True but if the enemy manages to figure out that your flagship is a lighter unit they can shift their fire there. Your strategy is a viable one I just prefer to have my flagship, in strategy games and wargames that let you pick your flagship, be something that can survive as many hits as possible. That or a carrier kept back from the battle zone with a good escort screen.

In games that allow it, without some massive drawbacks involved my typical taskforce consists of

1 to 5 capital ships (DNs, SDNs or SDN(P)s in main era honorverse,

1 to 3 carriers (CLACs in Honerverse, usually replaced with more capital ships in settings or eras that don't have carriers or those where capital ships, and sometimes smaller ships, carry decent strike craft compliments of their own.)

3 to 25 Heavy warships (BCs or BC(P)s in Honorverse)

Option A:

8 to 50 Medium warships (CAs or CLs in Honorverse)

4 to 30 Light warships (DDs in Honorverse, maybe FFs if early enough in the setting)

or Option B:

4 to 30 Medium warships

8 to 50 Light warships.

Flagship as either a capital ship or carrier.

With raiding groups consisting of 1 to 3 task forces, small attack fleets 1 to 5 and heavy fleets 5 to 20.

In Honerverse I would most likely go for upper mid sized option B task forces.
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Re: Sonja Hemphill
Post by munroburton   » Sun Jun 22, 2014 8:56 pm

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Roguevictory wrote:True but if the enemy manages to figure out that your flagship is a lighter unit they can shift their fire there. Your strategy is a viable one I just prefer to have my flagship, in strategy games and wargames that let you pick your flagship, be something that can survive as many hits as possible. That or a carrier kept back from the battle zone with a good escort screen.


Yup, I would tend to do the same thing. However, situations do arise in which a predictable flagship is a drawback - this isn't a tremendous problem in the Honorverse with its more homogeneous squadrons.

I recall a battle shortly before Operation Buttercup in which a Peep task force CO was killed because his flagship was in the volume of a wall where the RMN had come to expect flagships. That's a little more to do with the formation positions, but if he had been aboard a BC? Ghost Rider would've ignored him.

Obviously, if a particular Navy started using screening vessels as flagships in general, its enemies might start hammering the screen a little harder than otherwise.
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Re: Sonja Hemphill
Post by dreamrider   » Sun Jun 22, 2014 10:03 pm

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Roguevictory wrote:Yeah as much as I love small and midsized warships picking one as a flagship when you have large warships in the fleet is nuts.


It used to be a standard practice in a number of navies in the 17th through the early 19th century, for quite practical reasons.

The primary strength and requisite of a flagship is not to help fight the enemy ships directly. The primary requisite is to aid the commander in managing the fleet as IT fights the enemy ships.

dreamrider
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Re: Sonja Hemphill
Post by Roguevictory   » Sun Jun 22, 2014 10:53 pm

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Location: Guthrie, Oklahoma, USA

munroburton wrote:
Roguevictory wrote:True but if the enemy manages to figure out that your flagship is a lighter unit they can shift their fire there. Your strategy is a viable one I just prefer to have my flagship, in strategy games and wargames that let you pick your flagship, be something that can survive as many hits as possible. That or a carrier kept back from the battle zone with a good escort screen.


Yup, I would tend to do the same thing. However, situations do arise in which a predictable flagship is a drawback - this isn't a tremendous problem in the Honorverse with its more homogeneous squadrons.

I recall a battle shortly before Operation Buttercup in which a Peep task force CO was killed because his flagship was in the volume of a wall where the RMN had come to expect flagships. That's a little more to do with the formation positions, but if he had been aboard a BC? Ghost Rider would've ignored him.
Obviously, if a particular Navy started using screening vessels as flagships in general, its enemies might start hammering the screen a little harder than otherwise.


Yeah If it isn't predictable having a smaller warship as your flag is a great idea. But if it becomes predictable it doesn't work too well.

And I don't always choose capital ships or heavies as my flagship even when I get the chance. I've played a lot of scifi RPGs as naval officers and know a few times I've chosen what I consider medium warships as my flagship when heavies or capitals were available.

Of the two most memorable ones the first time the task force had initially been composed solely of medium and light warships plus their fighter compliments and some support craft so when 2 heavy warships got added to the force I decided shifting my flag wasn't worth it. Especially since my current flagship had equivalent shielding and armor to the newly arrived heavies, better maneuverability, more HP, and only slightly inferior point defenses.

The other my character was one of 5 admirals in the navy of a newly formed alliance of worlds whose combined navy had a total of two heavy and 1 capital warships in it. But he was also their chief starship designer and while they could maintain heavy and capital warships they could only build fighters, freighters, and light or medium warships until their shipyards were expanded.

Plus the medium warships they were building were the most advanced in known space and had 80 percent the armor and shielding of their one capital ship, which was a 25 year old model, and a little over 70 percent the shields and armor of their one advanced model heavy warship with point defenses and maneuverability superior to either of their heavies and their one capital ship so he opted for one of the mediums when offered his choice of flagship.

And I know that dreamrider but in a modern or future setting a flagship needs very good communications and sensor equipment, and larger hulls usually have more space for that as well as superior defenses. If you can get the sensor and comm gear a flagship needs onto a smaller ship without making it obvious what you've done, and thus paint a 'To kill admiral shoot here' sign on the vessel than yeah a smaller flag can work great. And in case you are wondering both the cases I mentioned above all warships had roughly equivalent comm systems and the mediums I was using as my flag had equal, superior, or at least only slightly inferior sensors to the larger vessels I rejected.
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