The Two General's Problem

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Add to that the other discrepancies in the story, like the lack of a stealth drive system or the insufficient graser technology that they thought was used for Oyster Bay.

I do not think the graser technology is a problem, since a version of it was used at Galton. But the lack of a previously unknown stealth drive system is going to give people pause.

I expect that Oyster Bay could have been carried out by what Galton did have: a combination of ballistic approach and drone level stealth. As written, the problem is that Herlander Simões talked about the spider drive (although we do not know how much he knew of the details) and Admiralty officials stated in the attack aftermath that a new stealthy drive had been used (not sure what evidence they used). So we have expectations that Galton might not be viewed as the definitive end to the Malign story. I have no idea how a partial evacuee list will play out when the story continues.

tlb wrote:

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Add to that the other discrepancies in the story, like the lack of a stealth drive system or the insufficient graser technology that they thought was used for Oyster Bay.

I do not think the graser technology is a problem, since a version of it was used at Galton. But the lack of a previously unknown stealth drive system is going to give people pause.

Though IIRC the graserhead missiles were[/s] less powerful than the graser on the graser torp. So superficially that seems to cover it; weapons that throw grasers instead of bomb-pumped lasers.

but if the GA looks closely they're still going to be wondering why the OB weapons used a better warhead that anything seen later at Galton. And that'll look extra weird if they find the misinformation Galton was fed that their graserhead missiles [i]were the weapons used for OB.

So those discoverable discrepancies don't seem problem free for the MAlign. (Still, the missing spider drive is likely to be larger and more quickly noticed hole in the narrative Galton was fed that they were the source of the OB attacks)

When Detweiler failed to get out and was trapped, his fate was sealed. I understand him choosing to go out in a nuclear fireball. Essentially, he was like classified technology that could not fall into the hands of the GA. And since his sons are a carbon copy of himself, then his body could not be found dead or alive. That would then limit the movements of his sons. They would not have been able to move around the galaxy at that point. A dead man can not afford to be seen or photographed later somewhere else in the galaxy. Like when someone has a twin. "Hey! Didn't I just see you standing on the balcony? How did you get down here so quickly?"

I do not think that the GA having biological samples of his DNA would have been a good thing for the Onion.

The evacuees could not simply leave a note that they are leaving. These people were all successful affluent people. Nobody simply leaves all of their assets behind. But it takes a significant amount of time to liquidate ones assets. And in case of death, at least someone might have cashed in on any life insurance policies, and other assets.

penny wrote:When Detweiler failed to get out and was trapped, his fate was sealed. I understand him choosing to go out in a nuclear fireball. Essentially, he was like classified technology that could not fall into the hands of the GA. And since his sons are a carbon copy of himself, then his body could not be found dead or alive. That would then limit the movements of his sons. They would not have been able to move around the galaxy at that point. A dead man can not afford to be seen or photographed later somewhere else in the galaxy. Like when someone has a twin. "Hey! Didn't I just see you standing on the balcony? How did you get down here so quickly?"

I do not think that the GA having biological samples of his DNA would have been a good thing for the Onion.

The evacuees could not simply leave a note that they are leaving. These people were all successful affluent people. Nobody simply leaves all of their assets behind. But it takes a significant amount of time to liquidate ones assets. And in case of death, at least someone might have cashed in on any life insurance policies, and other assets.

He did not have to be on the last transport out. He could have had papers that identified him and his wife as anybody, including being a business couple on Mesa for a medical conference as an example. His presence and death were by choice.

You state people could not just write a goodbye note and leave, as though it were obvious. Basically that is what they did, with the exception of not writing a note (but that was okay, since the people that cared were to be blown up). What bad things would happen if the note said that they could no longer stand for what Mesa had become and were starting a new life elsewhere and then they took just enough money and left the rest to family and charity? That is what the young man did, who went to live in the Alaska wilds in the isolated remains of a bus (which the authorities have since removed). Even if this identified them as members of the Mesan Alliance, at that point of the expedited Houdini so what? The explosions and massive deaths were also a choice and not a necessity.

PS: His "sons" were clones, but with changes; so there was a resemblance, but it is not clear that they had identical features. Do the books state that anywhere?

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:When Detweiler failed to get out and was trapped, his fate was sealed. I understand him choosing to go out in a nuclear fireball. Essentially, he was like classified technology that could not fall into the hands of the GA. And since his sons are a carbon copy of himself, then his body could not be found dead or alive. That would then limit the movements of his sons. They would not have been able to move around the galaxy at that point. A dead man can not afford to be seen or photographed later somewhere else in the galaxy. Like when someone has a twin. "Hey! Didn't I just see you standing on the balcony? How did you get down here so quickly?"

I do not think that the GA having biological samples of his DNA would have been a good thing for the Onion.

The evacuees could not simply leave a note that they are leaving. These people were all successful affluent people. Nobody simply leaves all of their assets behind. But it takes a significant amount of time to liquidate ones assets. And in case of death, at least someone might have cashed in on any life insurance policies, and other assets.

He did not have to be on the last transport out. He could have had papers that identified him and his wife as anybody, including being a business couple on Mesa for a medical conference as an example. His presence and death were by choice.

You state people could not just write a goodbye note and leave, as though it were obvious. Basically that is what they did, with the exception of not writing a note (but that was okay, since the people that cared were to be blown up). What bad things would happen if the note said that they could no longer stand for what Mesa had become and were starting a new life elsewhere and then they took just enough money and left the rest to family and charity? That is what the young man did, who went to live in the Alaska wilds in the isolated remains of a bus (which the authorities have since removed). Even if this identified them as members of the Mesan Alliance, at that point of the expedited Houdini so what? The explosions and massive deaths were also a choice and not a necessity.

PS: His "sons" were clones, but with changes; so there was a resemblance, but it is not clear that they had identical features. Do the books state that anywhere?

It takes time to liquidate ones assets. Days or weeks. Nobody leaves ones assets behind. Especially if they are relocating they need that money. And what would be the reason for leaving behind priceless antiquities? And so many people doing the same? It would generate suspicion. People are tethered to their assets like an appendage.

In your scenario, if they are simply fleeing Mesa and Mesa's corruption, why would they leave no forwarding address? If they are simply angry at Mesa and not their families.

Correction: In the HV, it could take months to liquidate assets.

penny wrote:It takes time to liquidate ones assets. Days or weeks. Nobody leaves ones assets behind. Especially if they are relocating they need that money. And what would be the reason for leaving behind priceless antiquities? And so many people doing the same? It would generate suspicion. People are tethered to their assets like an appendage.

In your scenario, if they are simply fleeing Mesa and Mesa's corruption, why would they leave no forwarding address? If they are simply angry at Mesa and not their families.

Correction: In the HV, it could take months to liquidate assets.

Every evacuee left everything behind, with the exception of what they had in their pockets. Of course it would leave suspicion; but at the point, when the alternative was explosions, so what? I am merely saying that at the point of the expedited Houdini plan, it did not matter; since the existence of the Malign was known. So the only question was: do the people leave behind suspicions or explosions? My answer is, at that point the explosions were a way to say FU to the galaxy and not a necessity.

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In general here on Earth in the present, clones are not necessarily identical. Twins are a sort of clone and we know twins are not necessarily identical. Even identical twins are not necessarily identical.

But I was under the impression that the MA's genetic tampering created identical clones. ISTR the books saying that that was intentional. I think it was so that any one Detweiler could not be identified or could stand in for the other.

However, in the HV there are DNA scanning devices and the DNA of clones are exactly the same even if they do not look alike. And there are probably DNA scanners located at ever customs facility on every planet. People "entering" the planet are probably scanned just like those people who enter or re-enter the country.

I think there is a passage where Evelina is lamenting about how Albrecht's sons look so much like him. It would be like being married to the most beautiful woman and all of her daughters look identical.

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:It takes time to liquidate ones assets. Days or weeks. Nobody leaves ones assets behind. Especially if they are relocating they need that money. And what would be the reason for leaving behind priceless antiquities? And so many people doing the same? It would generate suspicion. People are tethered to their assets like an appendage.

In your scenario, if they are simply fleeing Mesa and Mesa's corruption, why would they leave no forwarding address? If they are simply angry at Mesa and not their families.

Correction: In the HV, it could take months to liquidate assets.

Every evacuee left everything behind, with the exception of what they had in their pockets. Of course it would leave suspicion; but at the point, when the alternative was explosions, so what? I am merely saying that at the point of the expedited Houdini plan, it did not matter; since the existence of the Malign was known. So the the only question was: do the people leave behind suspicions or explosions? My answer is, at that point the explosions were a way to say FU to the galaxy and not a necessity.

You leave behind explosions. It is the same for anyone trying to fake their death and disappear. You leave behind a huge explosion if you can. And you do not liquidate your assets. That would point to premeditated disappearance.

The cleanest possible way to disappear is by certain death. The next cleanest way is by "a faked death."

If you want to disappear, you do not want people looking for you. There are some people so attached to loved ones that they will never give up the search for them or even believe they are dead. Especially if there are a lot of loose ends and suspicious details. Heck, if there are huge sums of insurance money involved, the insurance company might investigate it.

BTW: The existence of the MAlign was not known. It was only suspected by a small fraction of the galaxy. Houdini certainly did not want to increase that fraction by removing a shadow of a doubt.

tlb wrote:Every evacuee left everything behind, with the exception of what they had in their pockets. Of course it would leave suspicion; but at the point, when the alternative was explosions, so what? I am merely saying that at the point of the expedited Houdini plan, it did not matter; since the existence of the Malign was known. So the the only question was: do the people leave behind suspicions or explosions? My answer is, at that point the explosions were a way to say FU to the galaxy and not a necessity.

penny wrote:You leave behind explosions. It is the same for anyone trying to fake their death and disappear. You leave behind a huge explosion if you can. And you do not liquidate your assets. That would point to premeditated disappearance.

The cleanest possible way to disappear is by certain death. The next cleanest way is by "a faked death."

If you want to disappear, you do not want people looking for you. There are some people so attached to loved ones that they will never give up the search for them or even believe they are dead. Especially if there are a lot of loose ends and suspicious details. Heck, if there are huge sums of insurance money involved, the insurance company might investigate it.

BTW: The existence of the MAlign was not known. It was only suspected by a small fraction of the galaxy. Houdini certainly did not want to increase that fraction by removing a shadow of a doubt.

If you prefer explosions and deaths, that is up to you. Obviously the author felt that the Malign would also prefer explosions and deaths. I have only been saying that it was not a necessity.

As for people questioning and looking, that is happening anyway. The explosions did not stop anything.

PS: The existence of the Malign was known to the most important people affected and that knowledge is spreading. The explosions did not cover that up either.

tlb wrote:

tlb wrote:Every evacuee left everything behind, with the exception of what they had in their pockets. Of course it would leave suspicion; but at the point, when the alternative was explosions, so what? I am merely saying that at the point of the expedited Houdini plan, it did not matter; since the existence of the Malign was known. So the the only question was: do the people leave behind suspicions or explosions? My answer is, at that point the explosions were a way to say FU to the galaxy and not a necessity.

penny wrote:You leave behind explosions. It is the same for anyone trying to fake their death and disappear. You leave behind a huge explosion if you can. And you do not liquidate your assets. That would point to premeditated disappearance.

The cleanest possible way to disappear is by certain death. The next cleanest way is by "a faked death."

If you want to disappear, you do not want people looking for you. There are some people so attached to loved ones that they will never give up the search for them or even believe they are dead. Especially if there are a lot of loose ends and suspicious details. Heck, if there are huge sums of insurance money involved, the insurance company might investigate it.

BTW: The existence of the MAlign was not known. It was only suspected by a small fraction of the galaxy. Houdini certainly did not want to increase that fraction by removing a shadow of a doubt.

If you prefer explosions and deaths, that is up to you. Obviously the author felt that the Malign would also prefer explosions and deaths. I have only been saying that it was not a necessity.

As for people questioning and looking, that is happening anyway. The explosions did not stop anything.

PS: The existence of the Malign was known to the most important people affected and that knowledge is spreading. The explosions did not cover that up either.

I don't know what you think I've got to do with it, but I don't think he preferred deaths. He preferred "no loose ends." Death was simply a way to manage that.

Sure. People are looking. But those people will have to look without the benefit of those "loose ends." The best way to ensure a total wrap up of loose ends is an extinction level event.

Also, being that Houdini was so rushed and ahead of schedule, Detweiler could not afford to risk defection, resistance to ones responsibilities or leaks because of emotional baggage. Emotional baggage is what created Simoes.

People thought they had the time to do a lot of sentimental things on their to do list. Detweiler could not trust people to do the right thing and leave all of their "pets" and petpeeves behind.

Eliminating loose ends is a way of preventing many more deaths in the future by being found.