Post League Eridani

cthia wrote:

runsforcelery wrote:Even her destruction of the heavy cruisers which had struck their wedges in token of surrender would have been legally justifiable. It could not have been morally justifiable, which was the reason that she spared them after Mercedes got through to her, but legally she could have chosen not to.

Wow, very interesting stuff, RFC!

I'm going to ask a rhetorical question, because I'm sure I already know the answer, but it is still rather interesting.

Was Honor aware of the ins and outs of all of the legal mumbo jumbo on the spot? So, she could have legally destroyed those heavy cruisers, but I wonder if she was consciously aware of that, in the heat of the moment. Or was she just so frickin' steaming mad, mingled with grief, that she just didn't give a flying truck? Of course she knew it was morally wrong, but I wonder if she knew that legally she had those heavy cruisers by the balls. It seemed to me that she was in the midst of one of her death rides, but with her career -- and not her life or the lives of her crew -- on the line.

And, likewise, did her crew know that legally she could have had her way. Regardless of any moral considerations, responsibilities, or implications.



It was obvious the Alignment planted those bombs. The intelligence community immediately suspected Alignment intervention. Both Givens and Hamish immediately suspected the Alignment's handiwork. If the Solarians would have planted those bombs, they would have had no reason for their attack. Besides, it wasn't a secret that the Solarians are completely oblivious to what's really going on. And, there's no way the truth can't be found in those intact databases, whatever the case may be. The forty-six million civilian deaths is the result of a true crime of passion, someone who would continue to stab you 99 times long after you are dead. I can't think of anyone who's that pissed off. 'Ouch'! . . . 'Ouch'! . . . 'Ouuuch'!

OK! OK! OK!

tlb wrote:The orbital structures that were destroyed included much that was not military, including passenger terminals and civilian manufacturing. KZT has wondered on several occasions how Manticore could recover from having all of its hard industry destroyed.

cthia wrote:

runsforcelery wrote:Even her destruction of the heavy cruisers which had struck their wedges in token of surrender would have been legally justifiable. It could not have been morally justifiable, which was the reason that she spared them after Mercedes got through to her, but legally she could have chosen not to.

Wow, very interesting stuff, RFC!

I'm going to ask a rhetorical question, because I'm sure I already know the answer, but it is still rather interesting.

Was Honor aware of the ins and outs of all of the legal mumbo jumbo on the spot? So, she could have legally destroyed those heavy cruisers, but I wonder if she was consciously aware of that, in the heat of the moment. Or was she just so frickin' steaming mad, mingled with grief, that she just didn't give a flying truck? Of course she knew it was morally wrong, but I wonder if she knew that legally she had those heavy cruisers by the balls. It seemed to me that she was in the midst of one of her death rides, but with her career -- and not her life or the lives of her crew -- on the line.

And, likewise, did her crew know that legally she could have had her way. Regardless of any moral considerations, responsibilities, or implications.



It was obvious the Alignment planted those bombs. The intelligence community immediately suspected Alignment intervention. Both Givens and Hamish immediately suspected the Alignment's handiwork. If the Solarians would have planted those bombs, they would have had no reason for their attack. Besides, it wasn't a secret that the Solarians are completely oblivious to what's really going on. And, there's no way the truth can't be found in those intact databases, whatever the case may be. The forty-six million civilian deaths is the result of a true crime of passion, someone who would continue to stab you 99 times long after you are dead. I can't think of anyone who's that pissed off. 'Ouch'! . . . 'Ouch'! . . . 'Ouuuch'!

OK! OK! OK!

runsforcelery wrote:Of course she knew. So did Mercedes. Mercedes wasn’t really trying to save the enemy; that was a useful byproduct of saving Honor. Not from the legal consequences but the consequences of living with herself afterward.

kzt wrote:

tlb wrote:The orbital structures that were destroyed included much that was not military, including passenger terminals and civilian manufacturing. KZT has wondered on several occasions how Manticore could recover from having all of its hard industry destroyed.

Nah, it's easy. Like if the entire US industry was destroyed in in 1944. The Russians sell you their old, worn out industrial gear, at inflated prices. Of course, it's in mm instead of inches and in kPa vs PSI and all the manuals are in Russian, so you'll have to bring a bunch of Russian experts to run it. And to teach classes to engineers who have not done designs in metric. And it uses Russian spare parts, which of course you can't make because you have no industry. So you have to buy those from Russia, at perhaps a slight mark up.

And if you need a fuel pump for your tanks, your Russian industrial experts can just order one from you from State Factory #6 instead you having to design a pump and the tools to make it. Won't that be faster?

How long will it take before you don't have to depend on Russians to run your industry? How much of Russian military design practices will supplant US military practices? How many secret weapons will you keep from the Russians? When will you stop having to build your weapons using parts from the State Factories, as they are the qualified vendor and the assembly was built around the shape and specification of those parts?

runsforcelery wrote:

kzt wrote:

Nah, it's easy. Like if the entire US industry was destroyed in in 1944. The Russians sell you their old, worn out industrial gear, at inflated prices. Of course, it's in mm instead of inches and in kPa vs PSI and all the manuals are in Russian, so you'll have to bring a bunch of Russian experts to run it. And to teach classes to engineers who have not done designs in metric. And it uses Russian spare parts, which of course you can't make because you have no industry. So you have to buy those from Russia, at perhaps a slight mark up.

And if you need a fuel pump for your tanks, your Russian industrial experts can just order one from you from State Factory #6 instead you having to design a pump and the tools to make it. Won't that be faster?

How long will it take before you don't have to depend on Russians to run your industry? How much of Russian military design practices will supplant US military practices? How many secret weapons will you keep from the Russians? When will you stop having to build your weapons using parts from the State Factories, as they are the qualified vendor and the assembly was built around the shape and specification of those parts?

You really don't understand how industrial processes work in the Honorverse. We're talking here about, for example, molecular circuitry, which is identical in essentially every star nation; what matters is how you program the matrix in your individual molycircs. The basic sinews of industry are orbital refineries that produce bulk raw materials which then go to nanotech farms and "foundries" which are actually massive printers. What comes out of either of those processes depends solely on the blueprints you program into them. You need fittings in centimeters and meters? Fine, program your printers to produce them in metrics. You need them in imperial measure? Fine, program your printers to produce them in inches and feet. (Of course, that particular problem doesn't exist. Parts might be different sizes, but everyone uses the same measurement system. Well, except for Grayson baseball diamonds.) You need molycirc spares for your existing starships? Fine, tell the nannie farm what you need and churn them out.

Manticore's refineries weren't touched. Neither was the SEM's resource gathering infrastructure. What they lost were the fabrication platforms and the assembly platforms, where it all came together. That's what they're in the process of replacing using the basic processors being shipped in from Beowulf and even Haven. Where they can use Beowulfan-produced bits and pieces, like structural girders, of course they're doing just that. Wherever it comes to "Manticore-centric" parts, they just program the printers and the farms and churn them out as new.

runsforcelery wrote:You really don't understand how industrial processes work in the Honorverse. We're talking here about, for example, molecular circuitry, which is identical in essentially every star nation; what matters is how you program the matrix in your individual molycircs. The basic sinews of industry are orbital refineries that produce bulk raw materials which then go to nanotech farms and "foundries" which are actually massive printers. What comes out of either of those processes depends solely on the blueprints you program into them. You need fittings in centimeters and meters? Fine, program your printers to produce them in metrics. You need them in imperial measure? Fine, program your printers to produce them in inches and feet. (Of course, that particular problem doesn't exist. Parts might be different sizes, but everyone uses the same measurement system. Well, except for Grayson baseball diamonds.) You need molycirc spares for your existing starships? Fine, tell the nannie farm what you need and churn them out.

Manticore's refineries weren't touched. Neither was the SEM's resource gathering infrastructure. What they lost were the fabrication platforms and the assembly platforms, where it all came together. That's what they're in the process of replacing using the basic processors being shipped in from Beowulf and even Haven. Where they can use Beowulfan-produced bits and pieces, like structural girders, of course they're doing just that. Wherever it comes to "Manticore-centric" parts, they just program the printers and the farms and churn them out as new.

TFLYTSNBN wrote:I still favor adopting the intentions of Haven in Flag in Exile.

runsforcelery wrote:You really don't understand how industrial processes work in the Honorverse. We're talking here about, for example, molecular circuitry, which is identical in essentially every star nation; what matters is how you program the matrix in your individual molycircs. The basic sinews of industry are orbital refineries that produce bulk raw materials which then go to nanotech farms and "foundries" which are actually massive printers. What comes out of either of those processes depends solely on the blueprints you program into them.

kzt wrote:

runsforcelery wrote:You really don't understand how industrial processes work in the Honorverse. We're talking here about, for example, molecular circuitry, which is identical in essentially every star nation; what matters is how you program the matrix in your individual molycircs. The basic sinews of industry are orbital refineries that produce bulk raw materials which then go to nanotech farms and "foundries" which are actually massive printers. What comes out of either of those processes depends solely on the blueprints you program into them.

So why do the Havenites complain about the advanced technology of the RMN? Why don't they just produce duplicates of the RMN's missiles instead of clumsy, oversized ones? You just cut apart the sample missile components apart one atom at a time under what amounts to sophisticated microscopes and program your printers to reproduce them exactly. If everybody's equipment can make everyone else's gear, why don't they? Why are some planets noted as backwards when this has been the state of the art of hundred of years?

kzt wrote:

runsforcelery wrote:You really don't understand how industrial processes work in the Honorverse. We're talking here about, for example, molecular circuitry, which is identical in essentially every star nation; what matters is how you program the matrix in your individual molycircs. The basic sinews of industry are orbital refineries that produce bulk raw materials which then go to nanotech farms and "foundries" which are actually massive printers. What comes out of either of those processes depends solely on the blueprints you program into them.

So why do the Havenites complain about the advanced technology of the RMN? Why don't they just produce duplicates of the RMN's missiles instead of clumsy, oversized ones? You just cut apart the sample missile components apart one atom at a time under what amounts to sophisticated microscopes and program your printers to reproduce them exactly. If everybody's equipment can make everyone else's gear, why don't they? Why are some planets noted as backwards when this has been the state of the art of hundred of years?

tlb wrote:

runsforcelery wrote:You really don't understand how industrial processes work in the Honorverse. We're talking here about, for example, molecular circuitry, which is identical in essentially every star nation; what matters is how you program the matrix in your individual molycircs. The basic sinews of industry are orbital refineries that produce bulk raw materials which then go to nanotech farms and "foundries" which are actually massive printers. What comes out of either of those processes depends solely on the blueprints you program into them. You need fittings in centimeters and meters? Fine, program your printers to produce them in metrics. You need them in imperial measure? Fine, program your printers to produce them in inches and feet. (Of course, that particular problem doesn't exist. Parts might be different sizes, but everyone uses the same measurement system. Well, except for Grayson baseball diamonds.) You need molycirc spares for your existing starships? Fine, tell the nannie farm what you need and churn them out.

Manticore's refineries weren't touched. Neither was the SEM's resource gathering infrastructure. What they lost were the fabrication platforms and the assembly platforms, where it all came together. That's what they're in the process of replacing using the basic processors being shipped in from Beowulf and even Haven. Where they can use Beowulfan-produced bits and pieces, like structural girders, of course they're doing just that. Wherever it comes to "Manticore-centric" parts, they just program the printers and the farms and churn them out as new.

We did postulate that this was how manufacturing worked:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=9838&start=100

But that cannot be the complete answer because we still have construction crew in spacesuits working shipyards and you cannot do maintenance that way. In both On Basilisk Station and The Short Victorious War we have examples of ships being worked on by construction crews.

TFLYTSNBN wrote:I still favor adopting the intentions of Haven in Flag in Exile.

You may be the only one that believes that Manticore and Grayson should turn to piracy and extortion.