Honorverse ramblings and musings

cthia wrote:One piece of tech surprisingly lacking in the Honorverse that is present in every other space opera is the dogfighter. Even before the LACs I felt that emptiness. When the LACs came along, I was like "finally, Johnny come lately."

But then, someone had to burst my bubble with "LACs aren't that maneuverable." Drats.

Dogfighters are part and parcel of Earth. Perhaps the League will introduce extremely small ships which amounts to very cramped extremely small insanely maneuverable engines straddled by a single pilot. A truly crotch-rocket specific space vehicle. CRSV. Now for weaponry fitted to the fleet footed little flea capable of maneuvering for an up to kilt or down the throat shot that can mission kill - mass produced in insurmountable numbers.

Perhaps they should be called wedge rockets. Talk about a piece of tech giving a new meaning to wedgie.

Of course, they'll be nicknamed the "flying wedgies." lol

Cthia, there are small maneuverable fighters in the Honorverse - they are called "sting ships" - or pinnances and assault shuttles.

The problem is Starship weapons are the size of Stingships themselves and stingships are vulnerable to even warship anti-missile weaponry (Their wedges are smaller than a missile's so a CM would easily trash one.) While Stingships carry wedge missiles, the wedges are measured in meters - not kilometers, and carry chemical warheads, not nukes.

In addition - stingships are no faster (in absolute speed and acceleration) than warships, though they are maneuverable.

It is possible for stingships to take out a small warships - like the dispatch boat was killed by the assault shuttle. However, a proper warship would require to be swarmed, by dozens, if not hundreds of stingships to take down a DD or CL, at the cost of most of the stingships.

Using stingships against warships is a desperation play, not a proper tactic

SWM wrote:You're right, Jeff. I had in the back of my head that Masada had a 1:1 male-female ratio, but that can't be true.

Maybe, maybe not. Remember Templeton wanted to abort Judith's child because it was female. The ratio might not be the Grayson's 3:1 but odds on its lower than that, plus with the size of Masada's harem s who knows.

Theemile wrote:

cthia wrote:One piece of tech surprisingly lacking in the Honorverse that is present in every other space opera is the dogfighter. Even before the LACs I felt that emptiness. When the LACs came along, I was like "finally, Johnny come lately."

But then, someone had to burst my bubble with "LACs aren't that maneuverable." Drats.

Dogfighters are part and parcel of Earth. Perhaps the League will introduce extremely small ships which amounts to very cramped extremely small insanely maneuverable engines straddled by a single pilot. A truly crotch-rocket specific space vehicle. CRSV. Now for weaponry fitted to the fleet footed little flea capable of maneuvering for an up to kilt or down the throat shot that can mission kill - mass produced in insurmountable numbers.

Perhaps they should be called wedge rockets. Talk about a piece of tech giving a new meaning to wedgie.

Of course, they'll be nicknamed the "flying wedgies." lol

Cthia, there are small maneuverable fighters in the Honorverse - they are called "sting ships" - or pinnances and assault shuttles.

The problem is Starship weapons are the size of Stingships themselves and stingships are vulnerable to even warship anti-missile weaponry (Their wedges are smaller than a missile's so a CM would easily trash one.) While Stingships carry wedge missiles, the wedges are measured in meters - not kilometers, and carry chemical warheads, not nukes.

In addition - stingships are no faster (in absolute speed and acceleration) than warships, though they are maneuverable.

It is possible for stingships to take out a small warships - like the dispatch boat was killed by the assault shuttle. However, a proper warship would require to be swarmed, by dozens, if not hundreds of stingships to take down a DD or CL, at the cost of most of the stingships.

Using stingships against warships is a desperation play, not a proper tactic

Desperation? You mean like the Japanese with their kamikazes? Desperation, like say... the SLN?

Yes, but I'm talking about true dogfighters that can practice that Top Gun stuff. "Never ever leave your wingman." lol

And of course, missiles would have to be engineered that can do the damage, somehow. I'm thinking that most of the bulk associated with range can be eliminated as these missiles would be delivered practically on target point blank.

Now if the SLN can deal with Duckk's little conundrum regarding the medium.

I sure hope the League doesn't just roll over and die. I'd like to see the fruits of that industrial might.

If stingships aren't as maneuverable as modern day fighters does that mean against fighters they'd be toast?

cthia wrote:
If stingships aren't as maneuverable as modern day fighters does that mean against fighters they'd be toast?

Sting ships can probably outmaneuver most modern fighters in the atmosphere. But even if they can't out-turn a fighter that doesn't mean they'd be toast. F-4 Phantoms couldn't out turn Vietnamese MiGs, and trying was a good way to end up in its gunsights. Yet even at their worst they managed a slight positive kill ratio, and with better tactics improved that despite being no more maneuverable. A stingship don't need to be able to out-turn a fighter to beat it; being significantly faster can also work, as can having more capable weapons, ECM, etc.

Stingships are going to be less capable of drastic vector changes when flying exo-atmospheric because (barring a gravity slingshot around a planet or moon) there's no way to radically change vector while maintaining your momentum like there is in air, sea, or on ground. So they're not going to be much more agile that a pinnace or even a LAC if used against starships that are underway.

cthia wrote:And of course, missiles would have to be engineered that can do the damage, somehow. I'm thinking that most of the bulk associated with range can be eliminated as these missiles would be delivered practically on target point blank.

Wouldn't that just shift the capacitors, fuel, pen-aids, etc to the delivery vehicle? Making it fat and un-maneuverable?

Even the Viper "dogfighting" anti-LAC missile is bigger than your proposed crotch-rocket. It would be difficult to make it much smaller and keep the range and killing power. "Shipkiller" missiles are even bigger.

The path you'd have to take would be a strictly energy-armed crotch rocket and that means something on the size order of the MAlign's Graser Torpedo, which is about LAC sized, IIRC.

Yes Johnathan. Yes Harold. Yes Duckk. Dogfighting in space without air currents as an object to push against makes it rather difficult to impossible to realize an F14 Tomcat-like maneuvering vehicle. But. If it were possible and the SLN's industrial might introduced it, that would make for an interesting final war.

We know that instantaneous vector changes is possible. (Our own UFO's have proved that) And by the time of the Honorverse, Old Earth should have been able to, at least partially, crack the mystery of UFO propulsion from downed/captured alien spacecraft being studied at Roswell. But to keep it interesting, the League can only manage very small highly maneuverable craft in or out of atmosphere.

Industrial might and tech. I don't want the League to just die. And a dogfighter would be terribly romantic. And no, I have no Earthly (lol) idea what kind of very small ship killer missiles could be used. But perhaps League civilian tech does.

Remember, impossible is a term used only toward non-governmental agencies without the deep pockets that make all things possible. lolol

And right now the League is offering lucrative contracts to any and all companies who can take the bull and the Manticore by the horns.

I know that the proposal steps far out of the MWW's possible incorporation. But, if the upcoming book(s) feature a dead wussy League with satin gonads and no backbone, I'll be disappointed. A battle changing piece of tech that at least makes the GA take notice would be nice. And the GA would then have to act quickly before the League can mass produce it -- akin to the Havenites and Apollo.

cthia wrote:Yes Johnathan. Yes Harold. Yes Duckk. Dogfighting in space without air currents as an object to push against makes it rather difficult to impossible to realize an F14 Tomcat-like maneuvering vehicle. But. If it were possible and the SLN's industrial might introduced it, that would make for an interesting final war.

We know that instantaneous vector changes is possible. (Our own UFO's have proved that) And by the time of the Honorverse, Old Earth should have been able to, at least partially, crack the mystery of UFO propulsion from downed/captured alien spacecraft being studied at Roswell. But to keep it interesting, the League can only manage very small highly maneuverable craft in or out of atmosphere.

No, just no. I can't see any change of RFC throwing "UFO tech" into the Honorverse.

It does occur to me that we have seen one propultion tech which might have the ability to support momentum conserving turns in the vaccum of space.

However it likely can't handle the stresses, and even if it could it doesn't mater because it doesn't bypass inertia so it can apply less vector change per time unit than a wedge can.


But a spider node is described as basically a tractor so powerful it can anchor to the Alpha wall itself. Potentially if you used a single node to reach out to the side of the ship and grab a single point you'd get whipped around that fixed point. However we don't know that the spider tractor can handle significant angular change at it's anchor point. We do know that an individual spider node's projection can't take a lot of stress (or you wouldn't need to line the length of the hull with them in order to work up to a piddling 200 or so g. And while using a spider node you can't (as far as we know) have a wedge up - so you have no compensator. So your vector change can't impart more than the grav plates can handles. Which actually isn't a problem because a single node would pack in and die long before that level of acceleration was reached.


Kind of like how in cartoon physics you can whip a car through a near-instant 90 degree turn by using a steel cable and grappling hook. But when you try it in the real world (thanks Mythbusters) the system can't handle the stress and something fails catastrophically (be it the cable, the mount to the car, or the item being grappled).

But I do find it interesting, even if impractical at the velocities and accelerations commonly using the in Honorverse, that a spider node could let you spin your vector (not just heading) around an arbitrary point in deep space.

IIRC, NASA research showed you could sustain 35g+ and remain functional if you where immersed in a breathable fluid. Combine that with the MAN's grav plates and you get a very high tolerance for acceleration. However I'm pretty sure the NASA research was on linear acceleration, angular might not work that way.

kzt wrote:linear acceleration, angular might not work that way.

No difference dude. The only true question is: "What rate of change of acceleration is possible when immersed in fluid?"(JERK)

Uh, down the throat suicidal wedge kazicosnorting(divinecokesnorting) will not work on Havenite ships. They not only have bucklers, but they also have bow walls.

Jonathan_S wrote:

cthia wrote:Yes Johnathan. Yes Harold. Yes Duckk. Dogfighting in space without air currents as an object to push against makes it rather difficult to impossible to realize an F14 Tomcat-like maneuvering vehicle. But. If it were possible and the SLN's industrial might introduced it, that would make for an interesting final war.

We know that instantaneous vector changes is possible. (Our own UFO's have proved that) And by the time of the Honorverse, Old Earth should have been able to, at least partially, crack the mystery of UFO propulsion from downed/captured alien spacecraft being studied at Roswell. But to keep it interesting, the League can only manage very small highly maneuverable craft in or out of atmosphere.

No, just no. I can't see any change of RFC throwing "UFO tech" into the Honorverse.

It does occur to me that we have seen one propultion tech which might have the ability to support momentum conserving turns in the vaccum of space.

However it likely can't handle the stresses, and even if it could it doesn't mater because it doesn't bypass inertia so it can apply less vector change per time unit than a wedge can.


But a spider node is described as basically a tractor so powerful it can anchor to the Alpha wall itself. Potentially if you used a single node to reach out to the side of the ship and grab a single point you'd get whipped around that fixed point. However we don't know that the spider tractor can handle significant angular change at it's anchor point. We do know that an individual spider node's projection can't take a lot of stress (or you wouldn't need to line the length of the hull with them in order to work up to a piddling 200 or so g. And while using a spider node you can't (as far as we know) have a wedge up - so you have no compensator. So your vector change can't impart more than the grav plates can handles. Which actually isn't a problem because a single node would pack in and die long before that level of acceleration was reached.


Kind of like how in cartoon physics you can whip a car through a near-instant 90 degree turn by using a steel cable and grappling hook. But when you try it in the real world (thanks Mythbusters) the system can't handle the stress and something fails catastrophically (be it the cable, the mount to the car, or the item being grappled).

But I do find it interesting, even if impractical at the velocities and accelerations commonly using the in Honorverse, that a spider node could let you spin your vector (not just heading) around an arbitrary point in deep space.

But how do we know that UFO tech hasn't already been introduced into the Honorverse?

Impeller wedges could still be the source of propulsion of some less advanced alien species. Or could have been their earlier form of propulsion before they engineered whatever it is that they use now.

For that matter, how do we know that the MAlign's streak drive and the spider isn't the very early stages of alien tech? And how do we know that that tech didn't initially come from classified Roswell documents pilfered long ago by the MAlign?

Conspiracy theories is always the most powerful form of propulsion by compulsion. lol