Honorverse ramblings and musings

JeffEngel wrote:

cthia wrote:I keep reading disturbing posts akin to something like 'The Silesians should be happy to get the Andermani compared to who they have now. '

That's truly disturbing and just plain old... wrong.

The Silesian Confederacy could not protect its citizens from piracy, slaver raids, constant rebellions, or system governors that worked with, even for those pirates and slavers. It appointed plenty of those system governors, who sold their "own" people out to that. Its Navy at best was ineffectual and at worst was part of the problem. The only law and order the Confederacy could count on for centuries was what the IAN and RMN provided as a side-effect of protecting their own concerns and whatever amount of sheer human charity the officers and crews involved felt and could spare from their duties otherwise. I suppose it's worth mentioning that some Silesian local governments sometimes tried to be better, but with that kind of background, they did not have the means.

So yes - if foreign partition and occupation means a whole lot less likelihood of getting robbed, raped, enslaved, or killed, for you and your family, then yes, you really should be cheering on the invader. Doing otherwise would go out the far end of disturbing and safely into just plain wrong.

States exist for the benefit of their people, not the other way around. The Confederacy hadn't benefited its people for a long, long time.

The Anderman Empire certainly does benefit its people. It's a bit more eager to make the people of other planets its people than suits 21st century A.D. (or maybe even 20th century P.D.) sensibilities, and that's a perfectly fine thing to count against them - within reason. And it's a centralized system without generous provisions for people making up their minds about the direction of the state on a popular basis - another thing to count against them, within reason. But it does take care of its people, and it will often make a point of making other people its people specifically when it can do it so much better than the existing government can. They deserve the credit for that at least as much as the blame for expansionism and political centralization.

The Andermani - and now, finally, Manticore - are fully on the side against the pirates, slavers, and terrorists. The Confederacy's governnment and elite never were. Which side do you think the Silesian people should be on? Which side would you want to be on?

It makes me want to go and find Helga Boltitz and give her a big huge heaping helping of love and understanding. IMO, she basically issued this same concern to Gwen Archer regarding Manticore's help with Dresden. In a nutshell, why can't a polity just plain be good for us, not just better than what we have. That statement is denigrating and doesn't show much promise.

Silesia's not Talbott. I'm not saying Helga didn't have a point, but she was selling Manticore short still and was worrying about a political arrangement that would nullify Dresden's accomplishments and identity, an arrangement not like what came to pass there.

The Silesian Confederacy was not "just plain good for" Silesians. It wasn't a quaint burg with problems. It was a place where the wolves roamed free and the shepherds worked for them more often than their herd.

kzt wrote:

cthia wrote:I keep reading disturbing posts akin to something like 'The Silesians should be happy to get the Andermani compared to who they have now. '

That's truly disturbing and just plain old... wrong.

Life, she is hard. The world does not have the two modes you seem to imagine. Things range from really awful to really nice. But all the not nice places are not Cambodia circa 1975, nor are all the not awful places Zurich circa 2015. And not all the people in the nice places get to live the life of a billionaire in London.

Jonathan_S wrote:

cthia wrote:IMO, Graf von Sternhafen was a prime example of what to expect from an Empire. The needling of Jessica Epps was childish and was a result of obsessive hatred. Thank God for Rabenstrange. If they were so interested in the suppression of piracy then why was war almost kicked off over a Manticoran ship attacking a pirate. They should have helped, instead of antagonized!

The Andermani failed again, IMO, when it appeared they were going to have to work with the Manties. What an angry group of people. I always thought Elizabeth should send out flyers that said something like 'Manticore: don't hate us because we're rich.'

Whereas I took Honor's view; that incident was more their version of Paval Young, or maybe Santino, shooting first and not bothering to ask questions. Captain Gortz appears to let the harrassing of Jessica Epps become personal; to the point he (apparently) didn't check their claims that the "Sittich" was only impersonating an Andie merchant. Gortz apparently felt he was in the right and was defending his countries merchantman from high handed Manticoran interference.

He was wrong, but that's not the same as knowingly interfering with the interception of a pirate.


Think how the USN would react if a Chinese patrol boat was pulling over an (apparently) US flagged freighter in international waters. (Though in that case the existance of a US flagged freighter might be a hint something wasn't right )



But see how Rabenstrange and the Emperor gave covert assistance to Honor when the Wayfairer-class was first deployed to Silesia. I feel that's more representative of how the Andies normally interact with Maniticore. They may have some resentment for not having had free reign to offer their assistance and assimilation to especially troubled planets in Silesia, but until the miscalculation against High Ridge's government they weren't pushing for a war. And even then it was mostly that High Ridge was sending conflicting signals and refusing to talk to them.

The Emperor was looking for some quid pro-quo for being neutral in Manticore's favor and not jiggling their elbow during the war with Haven and High Ridge was being high handed while simultaneously drawing down not just the forces deployed around Silesia but the entire RMN. The provocations were supposed to be a basically diplomatic ploy to force High Ridge to either put up or shut up (deploy heavy forces and a clear diplomatic message, or make concessions) High Ridge typically waffled and did neither, putting Honor in the hot seat with orders to refuse to yield an inch without the forces to actually convince the Andies that the High Ridge government was serious about their refusal to talk. (And the admiral who got the assignment on the Andies side wasn't the best choice; stupid politics)

cthia wrote:
You missed the point. America is not named an Empire. The name "Empire" gives me cause to pause because it speaks to my prejudices. And then the Andermani went and confirmed those prejudices, IMO.

At any rate, I'm going to have to employ Ali's tactic and rope-a-dope your punches being that my response would be wayyyyy too political spurned on by American pride. I escaped my father's noose but members of this forum have an ever ready rope awaiting political discussions outside of the political forum -- and my stitches haven't quite healed from my last political surgery.

And this post is coming from someone descended from native Briton stock. We have had to endure invasions by the Normans, the Vikings, the Irish, the Anglo Saxons AND the Romans... yet you don't hear us banging on about it, do you?

Yet I so hear you banging now. Which is fine -- situations give us all cause to pause. As this discussion gave me cause, to pause to my own... prejudices -- with concession.

P.S.

I'm married to a Briton, just recently. And she bangs all the time. lol

cthia wrote:You missed the point. America is not named an Empire. The name "Empire" gives me cause to pause because it speaks to my prejudices. And then the Andermani went and confirmed those prejudices, IMO.

At any rate, I'm going to have to employ Ali's tactic and rope-a-dope your punches being that my response would be wayyyyy too political spurned on by American pride. I escaped my father's noose but members of this forum have an ever ready rope awaiting political discussions outside of the political forum -- and my stitches haven't quite healed from my last political surgery.

And this post is coming from someone descended from native Briton stock. We have had to endure invasions by the Normans, the Vikings, the Irish, the Anglo Saxons AND the Romans... yet you don't hear us banging on about it, do you?

Yet I so hear you banging now. Which is fine -- situations give us all cause to pause. As this discussion gave me cause, to pause to my own... prejudices -- with concession.

P.S.

I'm married to a Briton, just recently. And she bangs all the time. lol

Rincewind wrote:My point is that this is EXACTLY the kind of reaction the average Solly citizen makes, completely ignoring the actions of their own government, most of whom don't know about & would not give a blind bit of difference even if they did.

P.S. For one of the finest descriptions of a political system see the definition of a People's Democratic Republic as given in Yes Prime Minister. Almost on a par with their description of the politics of the readers of various newspapers. (Still a classic)

cthia wrote:You missed the point. America is not named an Empire. The name "Empire" gives me cause to pause because it speaks to my prejudices. And then the Andermani went and confirmed those prejudices, IMO.

At any rate, I'm going to have to employ Ali's tactic and rope-a-dope your punches being that my response would be wayyyyy too political spurned on by American pride. I escaped my father's noose but members of this forum have an ever ready rope awaiting political discussions outside of the political forum -- and my stitches haven't quite healed from my last political surgery.

And this post is coming from someone descended from native Briton stock. We have had to endure invasions by the Normans, the Vikings, the Irish, the Anglo Saxons AND the Romans... yet you don't hear us banging on about it, do you?

Yet I so hear you banging now. Which is fine -- situations give us all cause to pause. As this discussion gave me cause, to pause to my own... prejudices -- with concession.

P.S.

I'm married to a Briton, just recently. And she bangs all the time. lol

Rincewind wrote:My point is that this is EXACTLY the kind of reaction the average Solly citizen makes, completely ignoring the actions of their own government, most of whom don't know about & would not give a blind bit of difference even if they did.

P.S. For one of the finest descriptions of a political system see the definition of a People's Democratic Republic as given in Yes Prime Minister. Almost on a par with their description of the politics of the readers of various newspapers. (Still a classic)

cthia wrote:I'm not so sure the average Solly citizen does actually ignore their own government's actions -- rather than that they are ultimately kept in the dark. Previous posts reminds me that news isn't at all instantaneous in the Honorverse. Then it is filtered through the government's propaganda machine whereas by the time it emerges from the other end, truth is an enigma -- having been churned out government-centric versions of itself.

Really thinking about it, I'd back the contrary -- as the Harrington plan relies on it. Don't you think?

cthia wrote:You missed the point. America is not named an Empire. The name "Empire" gives me cause to pause because it speaks to my prejudices. And then the Andermani went and confirmed those prejudices, IMO.

At any rate, I'm going to have to employ Ali's tactic and rope-a-dope your punches being that my response would be wayyyyy too political spurned on by American pride. I escaped my father's noose but members of this forum have an ever ready rope awaiting political discussions outside of the political forum -- and my stitches haven't quite healed from my last political surgery.

And this post is coming from someone descended from native Briton stock. We have had to endure invasions by the Normans, the Vikings, the Irish, the Anglo Saxons AND the Romans... yet you don't hear us banging on about it, do you?

Yet I so hear you banging now. Which is fine -- situations give us all cause to pause. As this discussion gave me cause, to pause to my own... prejudices -- with concession.

P.S.

I'm married to a Briton, just recently. And she bangs all the time. lol

Rincewind wrote:My point is that this is EXACTLY the kind of reaction the average Solly citizen makes, completely ignoring the actions of their own government, most of whom don't know about & would not give a blind bit of difference even if they did.

P.S. For one of the finest descriptions of a political system see the definition of a People's Democratic Republic as given in Yes Prime Minister. Almost on a par with their description of the politics of the readers of various newspapers. (Still a classic)

cthia wrote:I'm not so sure the average Solly citizen does actually ignore their own government's actions -- rather than that they are ultimately kept in the dark. Previous posts reminds me that news isn't at all instantaneous in the Honorverse. Then it is filtered through the government's propaganda machine whereas by the time it emerges from the other end, truth is an enigma -- having been churned out government-centric versions of itself.

Really thinking about it, I'd back the contrary -- as the Harrington plan relies on it. Don't you think?

Vince wrote:
Cthia, I think you have been making the same knee-jerk mistake that a lot of people (in both fiction "Solarian League, etc." and real life) make, that of judging a book by its cover (or title). Or automatically assigning your prejudices (used in the literal meaning of a preconceived opinion that is not based on reason or actual experience) to a political entity that may not fit those expectations.

Or, if an Empire (or Kingdom) is "evil", does that make a Republic "good"?

How about the People's Republic of Haven?
Or the Union of Soviet Socialistic Republics during the Great Purge under Joseph Stalin?
Or the People's Republic of China during the Cultural Revolution under Mao Tse-tung?

Are they automatically "good" because they are "Republics"?

Or should everyone (in both fiction and the real world) take the time to learn the FACTS and then make a judgement?

munroburton wrote:

cthia wrote:My bold.

You really believe that to be true? Interesting. I often thought myself what would have happened if war would have broken out with the Andies at the point of the Jessica Epps incident? Would Pritchart still have been compassionate or tried to take advantage? If the former, would they have helped take on the Andies as well?

Sure. At one point all Manticore could shake loose to send to Silesia were less than a half dozen Q-ships. Not exactly enough to slow down the IAN, never mind stop it. A couple of battle squadrons sent to seize and blockade the Gregor wormhole would have cut off any attempts to use Home Fleet to attack the heart of Andermani space.

If war broke out, forget about an alliance between Haven and Manticore. The alliance would be between Haven and Anderman - there's no way Pritchart could pull the Republic into a military alliance with Manticore, not without evidence of MAlign interference.

Pritchart would have been sympathetic, but only to an extent. High Ridge's policies were so fatuous he almost landed himself with four or five foreign crises. War with Anderman, war with Haven, losing Erewhon, stumbling into the Talbott Cluster(ok, that last isn't entirely HR's fault), where it all kicked off with the Sollies.

cthia wrote:First, I must post a retraction. It was you, munroburton, who first reminded me that Honor thought we had not been fortunate enough to run into the better versions of Andermani officers. Consider the credit redistributed.

Regarding an Alliance between Haven and the Andermani - somehow, I can't ever see that that would ever have been likely. No one trusted Haven and to me the Andermani seemed just as expansionist. That sort of wolf just didn't run in packs. Eloise and Theisman approaching Gustav for partnership? Gustav accepting? I have a headache just trying to wrap my mind around it.

Sure as heck is a scary prop for Manticore though.

But then, I never imagined a Havenite-Manty Alliance as roseandheather did either.