How many Star Nations are there with Ships of the Wall?

lyonheart wrote:Hi Weird Harold,

Actually, in a pearl from 2006, RFC indicated around 2/3 of the SL had only LAC's, so almost a third had some hyper warships.

...

While the core has sometimes been defined as the 'old league' [generally under a hundred systems] it might be as many as ~300 systems, the shells could be all the rest or anywhere from 1200 to around 1700 systems, most of whom don't like the SL or perhaps one to a few of their neighbors as the reason they have more than LAC's, NTM those who know or reciprocate those feelings.

The point I've been trying to make is that the Core Worlds depend on the SLN and don't have significant forces of their own. However you define the "Core Worlds" or "Old League" you won't find any "surprises" in their defenses because the SLN's capabilities are known. The same can't be said for System Defense Forces of any size.

Weird Harold wrote:

lyonheart wrote:Hi Weird Harold,

Actually, in a pearl from 2006, RFC indicated around 2/3 of the SL had only LAC's, so almost a third had some hyper warships.

...

While the core has sometimes been defined as the 'old league' [generally under a hundred systems] it might be as many as ~300 systems, the shells could be all the rest or anywhere from 1200 to around 1700 systems, most of whom don't like the SL or perhaps one to a few of their neighbors as the reason they have more than LAC's, NTM those who know or reciprocate those feelings.

The point I've been trying to make is that the Core Worlds depend on the SLN and don't have significant forces of their own. However you define the "Core Worlds" or "Old League" you won't find any "surprises" in their defenses because the SLN's capabilities are known. The same can't be said for System Defense Forces of any size.

True, but where/who built those SDF forces? Same shipyards that built the SLN wallers is most likely. They won't be much better than SLN stuff. A couple wrinkles. Note talking about SDF's not in MALIGN. Would be a rather bright bulb indication on WHO is MALIGN and who is not.

wastedfly wrote:True, but where/who built those SDF forces? Same shipyards that built the SLN wallers is most likely. They won't be much better than SLN stuff. A couple wrinkles.

Somebody has to pay for R&D since the SLN won't. Technodyne had enough R&D to come up with the extended range system defense missiles/pods used in Monica. AFAIK, the homing missiles used in Operation Hassan were developed by another SLN supplier and sold to Haven because the SLN wouldn't buy them and they needed to recoup R&D costs.

Beowulf seems to have a respectable ship-building industry and built their own SDF. As long as they're superficially backwards compatible with SLN datalinks and missiles, they can be as radical as necessary.

Weird Harold wrote:Beowulf seems to have a respectable ship-building industry and built their own SDF. As long as they're superficially backwards compatible with SLN datalinks and missiles, they can be as radical as necessary.

Y'all got textev for that, Harold (or anybody)? I know they have 36 SD's, but I don't recall anything that says they were home-built. May have missed it, and would appreciate the knowledge.

I think the point that Core systems wouldn't have SD Squadrons or even much of an SDF is well-taken (albeit Beowulf is the exception). If you haven't had a conflict in quite literally centuries (Western Europe is coming up on 70 years without a conflict between the major powers there, which may be a record in all of known history), and with the backing of the largest and (until 1920PD) the strongest Fleet in known space, why build a fleet of your own? (and levy the taxes necessary--I presume taxes are no more loved 2,000+ years in the future than they are now).

Now, out in the Shell, where things may have been more wild and wooly not all that long ago, having a major force might have been needed, and once you have a strong military, getting rid of it (and the now-entrenched interests that materially benefit from its existence) ain't easy.

So some systems might have SD Squadrons simply because they've always had them, and they've never been attacked since they've had them, so they mustbe valuable, right?

At least, until/unless the GA comes calling.....

We shall see, eventually.

IMHO as always. YMMV.

Hutch wrote:Y'all got textev for that, Harold (or anybody)? I know they have 36 SD's, but I don't recall anything that says they were home-built. May have missed it, and would appreciate the knowledge.

It is primarily an inference from the fact that Beowulf "chose not to include Manticoran tech" rather than "chose not to give Manticoran Tech to the Builders." I don't think that is exact wording, BTW.

It is also an inference from Beowulf's ability to make up the loss in Manticoran Manufacturing so readily; They obviously have the technical expertise and cpacity to build SDs of their own, even if it turns out they haven't used it.

Hi Hutch,

Thanks for being so amusing as always.

Beowulf has a large merchant marine, according to the early textev larger than the MMM, then almost as large while being one of the largest in the SL, so the ship building capacity has been there for centuries, especially given their expertise in physics such as the impeller drive.

From the rational attitudes displayed by the Beowulf board of directors, being independent of outside pressure seems to be a hallmark of their policy, so building their own warships, to avoid someone refusing to deliver whenever disagreement occurred [apparently the case with Erewhon, albeit partly by Manticore's hand]

I suspect Manticore would have helped finance the yards, had it been necessary to avoid sharing any of its tech with greedy sollies, who would quickly sell it to anyone including Haven.

L

Hutch wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:Beowulf seems to have a respectable ship-building industry and built their own SDF. As long as they're superficially backwards compatible with SLN datalinks and missiles, they can be as radical as necessary.

Y'all got textev for that, Harold (or anybody)? I know they have 36 SD's, but I don't recall anything that says they were home-built. May have missed it, and would appreciate the knowledge.

I think the point that Core systems wouldn't have SD Squadrons or even much of an SDF is well-taken (albeit Beowulf is the exception). If you haven't had a conflict in quite literally centuries (Western Europe is coming up on 70 years without a conflict between the major powers there, which may be a record in all of known history), and with the backing of the largest and (until 1920PD) the strongest Fleet in known space, why build a fleet of your own? (and levy the taxes necessary--I presume taxes are no more loved 2,000+ years in the future than they are now).

Now, out in the Shell, where things may have been more wild and wooly not all that long ago, having a major force might have been needed, and once you have a strong military, getting rid of it (and the now-entrenched interests that materially benefit from its existence) ain't easy.

So some systems might have SD Squadrons simply because they've always had them, and they've never been attacked since they've had them, so they mustbe valuable, right?

At least, until/unless the GA comes calling.....

We shall see, eventually.

IMHO as always. YMMV.

Daryl wrote:Depending on the range the Jutland era ships would be much less accurate in a gun battle than the modern ships. However I wonder just how much damage a 5 inch shell could do a heavily armoured ship of the line, while I do know that the heavier shells would destroy the modern destroyer if they hit.

My guess is that a pure long range gun battle would end inconclusively with the Jutland ships having lots of superstructure damage, but no mortal wounds, and the modern DDs would be most likely shaken by misses but unhurt.
Allow the modern ships to use their missiles (ship and helo launched) though and it would be rapidly over.

saber964"[quote="stewart wrote:A current 20th/21st Century parallel is 5 DDG-51's (or even 5 Spruance DD's) could take out a CA / BC vintage 1916 Jutland, if they used Harpoon at a 30+ mile range; If those same Burke's or Spruances got in a gunfight, the 8 / 10 / 12 inch guns on the Jutland era ships would win the day.
Zavala and Desron 301 won thru the weapons advancement that the SLN had refused to recognize. (they do now)

-- Stewart

Yes and no on 5 Burke class DD's smoking 4 WWI era BC's. During WWI guns were mostly flat shooting and only had a range 22-25,000yds. The range was so short because the guns could not elevate higher than about 20 degrees. while the advanced guns of the Burke class can shoot just as far or with advanced ammo and propellants out to 40-42,000yds and with special ammo and propellants out to 63nm, and with the new guns aboard the Zumwalt class can shoot to 44,000yds and in land attack 100nm.

[/quote]


That also depends on what type of ammo used. Most modern ships have no armor piercing ammo, they use what is known as common ammunition and is a good balance between AP and HE effects. HE ammo has the least AP properties but the most damage potential, while AP ammo is exactly the opposite. It would also have to depend on which ships the Burkes or Spruance class ships were engaging at long range. For instance the Kongo class BC only had 1in of deck armor when she was built. The Lion class had 2.5in, Invincible class had 1.5-2.5in, Tiger class had 1-3in. And Battleships weren't much better.

South Carolina 1-2.5in
Delaware 2in
Florida 1.5in

Dreadnaught .75-3in
Iron Duke 2.5in
Orion 4in

Let's see:
1. Star Empire of Manticore
2. Republic of Haven
3. Solarian League
4. Protectorate of Grayson
5. Andermani Empire
6. Republic of Erewhon
7. Republic of Beowulf

That's 7 known. I think it's likely that Mannerheim has some, so add the Renaissance Factor as the eighth. Midgard might, maybe someone else we haven't heard of (albeit probably on the scale of Erewhon), and probably several other SDFs in the League. And Maya Sector is working on it. And while Torch won't be getting any proper SDs or DNs, a podlaying Q-ship would be able to throw around a lot of firepower.

Meshakhad wrote:Let's see:
1. Star Empire of Manticore
2. Republic of Haven
3. Solarian League
4. Protectorate of Grayson
5. Andermani Empire
6. Republic of Erewhon
7. Republic of Beowulf

That's 7 known. I think it's likely that Mannerheim has some, so add the Renaissance Factor as the eighth. Midgard might, maybe someone else we haven't heard of (albeit probably on the scale of Erewhon), and probably several other SDFs in the League. And Maya Sector is working on it. And while Torch won't be getting any proper SDs or DNs, a podlaying Q-ship would be able to throw around a lot of firepower.

The Talbot system has a handful of wallers (and its own waller shipyard). One could assume the Asgards have some as well, since they are impeding on Andermani space.

Mannerheim has been shown to own DNs, so yes, they are in the club too.

Meshakhad wrote:Let's see:
1. Star Empire of Manticore
2. Republic of Haven
3. Solarian League
4. Protectorate of Grayson
5. Andermani Empire
6. Republic of Erewhon
7. Republic of Beowulf

That's 7 known. I think it's likely that Mannerheim has some, so add the Renaissance Factor as the eighth. Midgard might, maybe someone else we haven't heard of (albeit probably on the scale of Erewhon), and probably several other SDFs in the League. And Maya Sector is working on it. And while Torch won't be getting any proper SDs or DNs, a podlaying Q-ship would be able to throw around a lot of firepower.

The Midgard Federation wouldn't have wallers, IIRC the government is to poor.