Honorverse ramblings and musings

cthia wrote:

SWM wrote:I grant that Theisman had an enormous impact on the future of Haven. But what would have happened if Theisman had killed Honor Harrington in Honor in Exile, destroyed their entire existing fleet, and wiped out much of Grayson's construction capability? With hindsight, I think that is a game-changing result.

munroburton wrote:Especially at the time of Operation Thunderbolt and subsequently. I suppose there's a little irony there.

Particularly given that Honor wrote the WDB's recommendations for the Medusa class and endorsed both MDMs and LACs well after Fourth Yeltsin, then knocked sense into White Haven. Without that and without the GSN pushing ahead with new concepts, even the end of the first war seems like it would have been delayed for several more years.

Interesting speculation guys. I almost began a new thread some time ago speculating on alternate endings.

I always wanted to know what could have happened to prevent the Manticoran Navy build-down that happened with High Ridge. (Short of the prevention of the Prime Minister's assassination). I think this qualifies.

There would not have been a build down, no peace treaty giving Haven "time to get back on balance" with Bolthole. And White Haven would have pushed the offensive home NOT stopping short of Haven.

Though I'm assuming lots between - like assuming my timeline is in order. lol

???

Well, first you are assuming that White Haven even gets the chance to push the offensive against Haven. Remember, Honor in Exile ends in 1907. The cease-fire does not happen until 1915. Haven still controlled most of the systems it had captured before the War, and in fact has just captured several Manticoran allied systems. Grayson had not yet contributed anything to the war, and is still learning how to run a modern navy. Destroying all of Grayson's ships, naval crews, the shipyards, and the first modern home-built GSN ships which were about to come out of the shipyards, this early would have significantly affected the progress of the war. It would have taken years for the GSN to recover. It is quite possible that Grayson would never become as great a naval power as they have in the books.

In the meantime, Honor would not be around to command the Trojans in Silesia and stop Caslet. Honor would not serve on the Weapons Development Board. Grayson would not be around to help White Haven push toward Barnett. Theisman would have had more chances to divert White Haven with attacks like Tourville's. If Haven manages to hold onto Barnett, the Manticoran Alliance is in big trouble.

cthia wrote:

SWM wrote:I grant that Theisman had an enormous impact on the future of Haven. But what would have happened if Theisman had killed Honor Harrington in Honor in Exile, destroyed their entire existing fleet, and wiped out much of Grayson's construction capability? With hindsight, I think that is a game-changing result.

munroburton wrote:Especially at the time of Operation Thunderbolt and subsequently. I suppose there's a little irony there.

Particularly given that Honor wrote the WDB's recommendations for the Medusa class and endorsed both MDMs and LACs well after Fourth Yeltsin, then knocked sense into White Haven. Without that and without the GSN pushing ahead with new concepts, even the end of the first war seems like it would have been delayed for several more years.

Interesting speculation guys. I almost began a new thread some time ago speculating on alternate endings.

I always wanted to know what could have happened to prevent the Manticoran Navy build-down that happened with High Ridge. (Short of the prevention of the Prime Minister's assassination). I think this qualifies.

There would not have been a build down, no peace treaty giving Haven "time to get back on balance" with Bolthole. And White Haven would have pushed the offensive home NOT stopping short of Haven.

Though I'm assuming lots between - like assuming my timeline is in order. lol

???

SWM wrote:Well, first you are assuming that White Haven even gets the chance to push the offensive against Haven. Remember, Honor in Exile ends in 1907. The cease-fire does not happen until 1915. Haven still controlled most of the systems it had captured before the War, and in fact has just captured several Manticoran allied systems. Grayson had not yet contributed anything to the war, and is still learning how to run a modern navy. Destroying all of Grayson's ships, naval crews, the shipyards, and the first modern home-built GSN ships which were about to come out of the shipyards, this early would have significantly affected the progress of the war. It would have taken years for the GSN to recover. It is quite possible that Grayson would never become as great a naval power as they have in the books.

In the meantime, Honor would not be around to command the Trojans in Silesia and stop Caslet. Honor would not serve on the Weapons Development Board. Grayson would not be around to help White Haven push toward Barnett. Theisman would have had more chances to divert White Haven with attacks like Tourville's. If Haven manages to hold onto Barnett, the Manticoran Alliance is in big trouble.

Hmmm, interesting analysis.

But perhaps you don't realize that you're now supporting my post that you shot with a grazer, championing Honor Harrington's worth? Freudian slip?

cthia wrote:Hmmm, interesting analysis.

But perhaps you don't realize that you're now supporting my post that you shot with a grazer, championing Honor Harrington's worth? Freudian slip?

Not at all. I think Honor is very important. I just disagree with you that Honor is worth entire fleets of ships and that the RMN is hiding Honor on a superdreadnought to protect her at all costs. If that were the case, they wouldn't tell her to lead her ship into harm's way, or let her fly her own unarmed yacht into Haven System. And Honor has trained enough other people that she is not indispensable.

SWM wrote:

cthia wrote:Interesting speculation guys. I almost began a new thread some time ago speculating on alternate endings.

I always wanted to know what could have happened to prevent the Manticoran Navy build-down that happened with High Ridge. (Short of the prevention of the Prime Minister's assassination). I think this qualifies.

There would not have been a build down, no peace treaty giving Haven "time to get back on balance" with Bolthole. And White Haven would have pushed the offensive home NOT stopping short of Haven.

Though I'm assuming lots between - like assuming my timeline is in order. lol

???

Well, first you are assuming that White Haven even gets the chance to push the offensive against Haven. Remember, Honor in Exile ends in 1907. The cease-fire does not happen until 1915. Haven still controlled most of the systems it had captured before the War, and in fact has just captured several Manticoran allied systems. Grayson had not yet contributed anything to the war, and is still learning how to run a modern navy. Destroying all of Grayson's ships, naval crews, the shipyards, and the first modern home-built GSN ships which were about to come out of the shipyards, this early would have significantly affected the progress of the war. It would have taken years for the GSN to recover. It is quite possible that Grayson would never become as great a naval power as they have in the books.

In the meantime, Honor would not be around to command the Trojans in Silesia and stop Caslet. Honor would not serve on the Weapons Development Board. Grayson would not be around to help White Haven push toward Barnett. Theisman would have had more chances to divert White Haven with attacks like Tourville's. If Haven manages to hold onto Barnett, the Manticoran Alliance is in big trouble.

And don't forget that if Grayson's Navy and yards got wiped out then then they'd have been in no position to take the lead on the switch to podnaughts. And if they're seriously weakened they might not even be a big enough player to get invited to cooperate so closely with BuShips and the WDB; so they might not get the chance to even be in the loop or contribute towards the specs and design of MDMs and SD(P)s...

A worst case outcome from 4th Yeltsin could have all kinds of bizarre ripple effects; but not just, or even primarily because Honor would likely be dead.

Jonathan_S wrote:A worst case outcome from 4th Yeltsin could have all kinds of bizarre ripple effects; but not just, or even primarily because Honor would likely be dead.

Among strange side effects, if Haven hadn't been knocked back so hard around then, there's no way Pierre and St. Just would ever have given McQueen enough authority to put together Icarus.

If Honor would have been killed in Flag in Exile then Michelle Henke would not have been captured and there would not have been an inside advocate championing the fact that the leopard had changed its spots and there would have been no ultimate Alliance. In fact, the practice of rescuing prisoners would never have been resumed spelling a very messy war and even more intense negative feelings.

Also, if Honor had died at that point, who would have been the go-between between the RMN and the Andermani? Their interest in Silesia would have spilled over onto the RMN and another war on that front for Manticore.

There was one exception to the Eridani Edict: attacks on commercial operations of privately owned planets were not considered covered by it. (SI1) -wiki

Hmmm, is Darius considered a privately owned planet?

cthia wrote:

There was one exception to the Eridani Edict: attacks on commercial operations of privately owned planets were not considered covered by it. (SI1) -wiki

Hmmm, is Darius considered a privately owned planet?

Probably not, although it is in fact.

I think the Wiki is misinterpreting a MAlign argument (re: Torch) as the general interpretation of the Eridani Edict. The MAlign might have convinced the PNE of their interpretation but the rest of Humanity would dispute the interpretation.

cthia wrote:If Honor would have been killed in Flag in Exile then Michelle Henke would not have been captured and there would not have been an inside advocate championing the fact that the leopard had changed its spots and there would have been no ultimate Alliance. In fact, the practice of rescuing prisoners would never have been resumed spelling a very messy war and even more intense negative feelings.

Also, if Honor had died at that point, who would have been the go-between between the RMN and the Andermani? Their interest in Silesia would have spilled over onto the RMN and another war on that front for Manticore.

That's so far after Flag in Exile that the situation would be completely different. If Theisman had killed Honor Harrington and wiped out the Grayson fleet and construction facilities, Haven might have even won the war long before 1915. There's no point speculating on how specific events in the books after 1915 might be different, because the the entire war would have become completely different long before that. McQueen might be President in 1915. Or Pierre might have managed to push through his reforms, bringing the Havenite economy out of its death spiral. Haven might be on the way to becoming the wealthiest nation in the Galaxy, with the income from the Manticore Wormhole Junction.

By 1915, the Haven Quadrant would be completely different.

RDs massed approximately 270 tons, making them too large to deploy from missile tubes; they were instead deployed from the ship's boat bays. The drones had a limited range because of their small size.

Small size? WTF? That's the mass of 135 automobiles. Probably small if considering room for tech&toys to be fitted. But it seems that that kind of mass can eat up the available room in a boat bay rather quickly. There are lifeboats, pods, pinnaces, RDs, etc. etc., in a boat bay and I got the impression of a mostly empty cavernous space aboard Tepes when Clinkscales looked for a port for his minicomp.

And what the hell kind of system is deploying these things like buckshot?