"Why are you still alive?"

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

Theemile wrote:My only real question continues to be how they expect the populace as a whole to adopt genetic uplift as part of this? Everything else "kinda sorta make sense" in a way... The plans do follow.. "logically", but they more resemble a well worn 40 year old tee shirt stored in a moth jar (holey, with the little h) than they do a well thought out plan.

Why wouldn't everyone sign up to be taller, healthier, smarter, live longer, have a full head of hair (eradicate male baldness)? The vast majority of the population will accept all those "benign" benefits without batting much of an eye, if the environment is that this is allowed, safe, and already in practice.

Of course, the MAlign's objective is not to uplift the entire humanity, but to create strata of different people. But that won't be in the brochure. They would want to insert the best modifications to a restricted few and they may insert unwanted modifications to everyone else. Make everyone more docile and obedient?

The Genetic uplift bit is more like an Underpants Gnome Plan (Steal Underpants ==> ????? ==> Profit) . To make something most consider heinous, you must really make them feel there is no viable alternative but the Heinous - or any other action is More heinous than the act in question.

Or you remove the "heinous" perception. That's where I think the RF comes in: by having done it, having shown it's a GoodThing™ and by having always and expressly been against genetic slavery, they would want to show it's not, in fact, heinous.

But the evils of Manpower and the devastation caused by supersoldiers and genetic horrors from the last war are still in the human zeitgeist. You have to erase that first before the majority will jump on the band wagon. Besides, to paraphrase the movie 'The Incredibles', "When everyone is Super, no one is."

I shouldn't have used "saviors of Humanity", The Plan is for the uplift and improvement of humanity......well, for the leadership of the Alignment and whatever is their wish/need for specialized products out of the genetics labs as useful servants and workers.

To this point, we have seen the Onion version of the Alignment showing an almost total disregard for human life except as it fits their desires. While the Enlightenment may be adhering to more of the original philosophy of the Detweiler Vision, they have also been heavily used by the Onion Alignment as a front and cover.

How bad or heinous is the Alignment vision? Well, the chosen path is to corrupt and destroy several Star Nations and the League before using all the problems and manipulation to kill billions by destroying (not that the League by the time Harrington shows up at Sol is any peach) the League and instigating civil war, warlordism, killing the said billions to create fertile ground for the stealth injection (via the RF as a beacon of hope and mailed fist against marauders) of the precepts of Detweilerism genetic uplift on all the victims of the Alignment's aggression.
How do you look at a strategy in which you devastate the populations and infrastructure of anyone who (wether they know it or not) disagrees with your philosophy just so you can Build Them Back Better in your (Alignment) view. Oh, and rule them as gods from your high place, culling anything that you disapprove of. We have been told already in the books that the rewriting of history is already in place for the past, present and future "story" of the Alignment and it glorious (and selfless) struggle to bring the gift and right of genetic uplift on humanity. They are constantly reshaping the narrative and burying "little" unpleasant (but so nessisary) things like the way they cover Houdini and what they did (on purpose) to Mesa before Houdini was ended and then the Final Flourish to expunge all traces before blaming someone else for the horror they inflicted on Mesa

And sooner or later the LD's -and supporting ships- will be added to the list of the Alignment's list of things which are nessisary to drive humanity to a satisfactory state of desperation to at least sort of welcome genetic uplift (wrapped up in something else) and yet not taint the Alignment with the blood shead by the "invisible ships" because nobody can know where they came from or who they represented.

Wonderful......people?

Theemile wrote:But the evils of Manpower and the devastation caused by supersoldiers and genetic horrors from the last war are still in the human zeitgeist. You have to erase that first before the majority will jump on the band wagon. Besides, to paraphrase the movie 'The Incredibles', "When everyone is Super, no one is."

No doubt that's a required first step. But that's just marketing. The difficult part of making those genetic mods effective and safe has already been done. The Plan called for them to have been accepted in the RF and simply already have become mainstream by the time the rest of the Galaxy realises that was the objective all along. But there are other ways. And if the GA realises that pushing this takes a leg from under the Alignment, they will get behind it and push. TEiF actually makes it sound like that's exactly what will be happening.

I agree as well that if you raise the average for HUmanity, then the distribution will undoubtedly mean the majority of Humanity is still within 10% of average too. So you may look like a movie star or model from the prior century, but you're no better than 9 out of 10 neighbours in that department. You may live easily 450 years, but so will everyone else. (and note how aside from the actual number of years, we are exactly that right now, with a much healthier population, living longer, taller though not always more fit)

Anyway, the objective is not to make everyone above average, something that is mathematically impossible. The objective is to uplift Humanity as a whole, because it's not a company seeking a profit motive. If everyone is given 50% more working-age life without loss of experience, we should see an increase in quality of life, R&D, and many other things alongside. That's the objective... and if in order to do that you sell to people as being prettier, taller, having more stamina, and enhanced secondary sexual characteristics, they'll sign the dotted line. And it won't be a lie!

The Alignment's take on uplifting humanity is to modify others to meet the needs of the Star Lines as they see fit and always keep themselves way above their subjects both in terms of perceived and actual abilities and improvements.
There will be no "average" humans, only Star Lines and cattle. Any meaningful variation will be in the (carefully tended) differences in Star Lines. The rest only exist to serve the Alignment and don't matter except as to the scope of usefulness.

I love this thread.

But I have to admit that I am really surprised, ok gobsmacked, that Benjamin Detweiler said that the plan was off the rails. How can a centuries long conspiracy to take over the Galaxy be derailed by a few snafus?

Unless the plan was close to the endgame, there would be plenty of time to initiate the contingencies. I got the impression throughout the books that there are many built-in contingencies. You don't call yourself Alphas and fail to build in contingencies. Galton was such a contingency.

My point is that "off the rails" seem to imply that the overall plan had reached the point of no return. Which means it had already reached the midway point over into the endgame. It begs the question, how far into the endgame?

Of course the Detweilers will want to rule over this Master race. But I don't think that will be a problem. Certainly not total control anyways. The Detweilers already have total control over the centuries long research. This includes the falls, stalls and pitfalls, and the medical/gene therapy necessary to give proper care to each "line." They have control by default.

The RF is guaranteed to become the "capital system" because they will readily accept all of the technologies. I really don't see a reason for the Detweilers to worry.

I really see NO cause for concern EXCEPT being found before their technology hatches and matures.

Brigade XO wrote:The Alignment's take on uplifting humanity is to modify others to meet the needs of the Star Lines as they see fit and always keep themselves way above their subjects both in terms of perceived and actual abilities and improvements.
There will be no "average" humans, only Star Lines and cattle. Any meaningful variation will be in the (carefully tended) differences in Star Lines. The rest only exist to serve the Alignment and don't matter except as to the scope of usefulness.

Quite agreed.

But this won't be in the brochure that they and their pawns at the RF will sell to the Galaxy. The Brave New World will be good for everyone, everyone is equal, healthy, tall and handsome. And the evidence in sight (the RF) will confirm that marketing ploy.

It would be too late when people realise that they'd been duped. The genetic mods will have been inserted into the population at large, the control structures to keep them will be in place, and the "Luddite contrarians" who oppose this will be contained and in the process of being reduced.

cthia wrote:I love this thread.

But I have to admit that I am really surprised, ok gobsmacked, that Benjamin Detweiler said that the plan was off the rails. How can a centuries long conspiracy to take over the Galaxy be derailed by a few snafus?

He might have been exaggerating, but I don't think so. Yes, it's a figure of speech, but it's clear that the Plan was derailed and needs quite a lot of adjustment.

Unless the plan was close to the endgame, there would be plenty of time to initiate the contingencies. I got the impression throughout the books that there are many built-in contingencies. You don't call yourself Alphas and fail to build in contingencies. Galton was such a contingency.

I think it was close to the endgame. The two pieces of evidence we have for it are the Houdini operation, which ceased all operations on Mesa and therefore cut their ability to control Manpower, and what Benjamin sees in the mirror every morning: himself and his clone brothers. The LRPB allowed their quickening as clones of Albrecht because they were close to the endgame and the workload on Albrecht was increasing (whether the LRPB did that because Albrecht told them to do, or whether it was an independent decision is besides the point).

Another one I may include was the First Haven-Manticore War itself. There's a limit to how big the PRH would have been allowed to grow before balancing it against the SLN would have been difficult. A PRH that did absorb Manticore, got its infusion of cash, and then proceeded to conquer the Andermani, would have been quite a match to the SL. Not that the SL would agree, but they wouldn't left facts stand in the way of posturing.

This wasn't entirely under their control, but however tenuous that was, they would have influenced the Legislaturalists to delay attacking the Manticore Alliance by another decade. If necessary, they could have caused the PRH to alleviate their economic problems through other means.

The two wars were also snowballs going downslope that couldn't be stopped. Once they had started, the MAlign knew it had to come to its endgame because there was no turning back. Once the PRH took over Manticore, Beowulf was sure to take a stance and that would have started the Haven-Solarian War, whether the Alignment wanted it or not. And quite clearly, they did think it was time, because they initiated the operations with the Monica System, and prepositioning of both Byng, Crandall, and Filareta.

The RF is guaranteed to become the "capital system" because they will readily accept all of the technologies. I really don't see a reason for the Detweilers to worry.

I really see NO cause for concern EXCEPT being found before their technology hatches and matures.

That is one worry, but the RF is the other. Remember the Plan called for chaos in the Haven-Solarian War (later replaced by Manticore-Solarian War), in which they'd take an active part by feeding the flames. I suspect they'd also use the opportunity to cause a few Eridani Edict violations that depopulated certain "troublesome" worlds, especially those with large populations that couldn't be controlled -- all the Core systems, I expect. In the meantime, the RF would rise as the shining beacon of civilisation, around which all civilised peoples would aggregate, and accept its laws as right and just.

One of which would be genetic modifications. See other section of this thread.

But THAT is completely off the table now. Not only was there no huge chaos and depopulation, the RF is still only a minor player. Even excluding the big ones that were combatants, the Maya Sector Autonomous Region is coming ahead. I'd even bet that within a decade, the Madras sector neighbouring the SEM's Talbott Quadrant will be ahead too. There's no opportunity for sneaking genetic modifications under the table and subverting the Beowulf Code.

And the Enlightenment doing genetic modifications above the table comes as another nail in the coffin.

Plus the war is over and the "Alignment is gone." There's no opportunity for chaos this decade because they've lost all the forces at Galton, while the forces at Darius aren't ready. The moment they come out of the shadows -- assuming the GA gives them time -- the memories of the Alignment come back again and there's no way to hide the fact. They'd have to engineer a war again between two superpowers, and there's no one who wants that to happen in the next decade or two. They have no control over any of the major superpowers of the Galaxy either.

cthia wrote:I love this thread.

But I have to admit that I am really surprised, ok gobsmacked, that Benjamin Detweiler said that the plan was off the rails. How can a centuries long conspiracy to take over the Galaxy be derailed by a few snafus?

Unless the plan was close to the endgame, there would be plenty of time to initiate the contingencies. I got the impression throughout the books that there are many built-in contingencies. You don't call yourself Alphas and fail to build in contingencies. Galton was such a contingency.

My point is that "off the rails" seem to imply that the overall plan had reached the point of no return. Which means it had already reached the midway point over into the endgame. It begs the question, how far into the endgame?

Of course the Detweilers will want to rule over this Master race. But I don't think that will be a problem. Certainly not total control anyways. The Detweilers already have total control over the centuries long research. This includes the falls, stalls and pitfalls, and the medical/gene therapy necessary to give proper care to each "line." They have control by default.

The RF is guaranteed to become the "capital system" because they will readily accept all of the technologies. I really don't see a reason for the Detweilers to worry.

I really see NO cause for concern EXCEPT being found before their technology hatches and matures.

I do not understand how you fail to see that the plan is massively off the rails.

Let's review what the plan expected to happen. The Peoples' Republic of Haven and the Solarian League were supposed to slug it out in a war where the two sides were closely matched (all the corruption in the SLN had been engineered to bring the League's Navy down to equality to Haven). The results of that war would be the exhaustion of both sides and the fracture of the League. The Renaissance Factor, being independent of the League, would then gather the pieces together in a union that just happened to have a Genetics Planning Board, which would gradually exert more control over citizens' lives. During the war, the Leonard Detweiler ships would be lurking in the background to cause unexplained events that would push things toward the desired result.

Compare that to what actually happened. The Malign had the most influence in the governments that were swept away by events: the Legislaturalists of Haven and the government of High Ridge at Manticore. The war between Manticore and Haven, did not result in a victory by Haven (giving it an attack route into the League). Instead Manticore's technological advantage gave it a path to outright victory and the Malign in panic tried a brute force attack with Oyster Bay to swing the war back. Meanwhile the infiltration of Mesa delivered Herlander Simões to the combatants, with his information about the plan. This resulted in the Grand Alliance, that had no trouble in defeating the Solarian League in a "Short Victorious War". Although the Solarian League was stripped of all influence in the Verge, it mostly has not disintegrated. What separate pieces have developed are all a match for the Renaissance Factor, meaning that it will NOT be the nucleus of the new League that will dominate space.

So what is required to reestablish the plan? The Malign, lurking in the background, has to infiltrate the new power centers with its agents (a task made more difficult by the tendency of those agents to die at the first question). It then has to restart a war between those power centers, with the Renaissance Factor remaining neutral.

Meanwhile the Mesan Engagement is implementing the original Detweiler Plan, with the result that there could be a general uplift of people without the control of any planning board. The Detweilers of the Malign will NOT have control of that uplift.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Plus the war is over and the "Alignment is gone." There's no opportunity for chaos this decade because they've lost all the forces at Galton, while the forces at Darius aren't ready. The moment they come out of the shadows -- assuming the GA gives them time -- the memories of the Alignment come back again and there's no way to hide the fact. They'd have to engineer a war again between two superpowers, and there's no one who wants that to happen in the next decade or two. They have no control over any of the major superpowers of the Galaxy either.

The only "In" they have left is they can continue to attempt to destabilize the SL through the actions of the RF, and third parties. Barregos and team are on a path to pull their region away from the SL, and there are probably several others which have no direct connection to either the RF or the Malign. how the SL handles this, and the revelations of the Mandarin's activities will dictate if other members decide to peel away in the process.

And we still don't know if any thousand year old grudges will flare up, or if any Exo-League polities decide to take advantage of this period of weakness and go on an interstellar shopping spree. Any or all of this could be encouraged by the Malign or the RF.

We'll just have to wait and see.

tlb wrote:

cthia wrote:I love this thread.

But I have to admit that I am really surprised, ok gobsmacked, that Benjamin Detweiler said that the plan was off the rails. How can a centuries long conspiracy to take over the Galaxy be derailed by a few snafus?

Unless the plan was close to the endgame, there would be plenty of time to initiate the contingencies. I got the impression throughout the books that there are many built-in contingencies. You don't call yourself Alphas and fail to build in contingencies. Galton was such a contingency.

My point is that "off the rails" seem to imply that the overall plan had reached the point of no return. Which means it had already reached the midway point over into the endgame. It begs the question, how far into the endgame?

Of course the Detweilers will want to rule over this Master race. But I don't think that will be a problem. Certainly not total control anyways. The Detweilers already have total control over the centuries long research. This includes the falls, stalls and pitfalls, and the medical/gene therapy necessary to give proper care to each "line." They have control by default.

The RF is guaranteed to become the "capital system" because they will readily accept all of the technologies. I really don't see a reason for the Detweilers to worry.

I really see NO cause for concern EXCEPT being found before their technology hatches and matures.

I do not understand how you fail to see that the plan is massively off the rails.

Let's review what the plan expected to happen. The Peoples' Republic of Haven and the Solarian League were supposed to slug it out in a war where the two sides were closely matched (all the corruption in the SLN had been engineered to bring the League's Navy down to equality to Haven). The results of that war would be the exhaustion of both sides and the fracture of the League. The Renaissance Factor, being independent of the League, would then gather the pieces together in a union that just happened to have a Genetics Planning Board, which would gradually exert more control over citizens' lives. During the war, the Leonard Detweiler ships would be lurking in the background to cause unexplained events that would push things toward the desired result.

Compare that to what actually happened. The Malign had the most influence in the governments that were swept away by events: the Legislaturalists of Haven and the government of High Ridge at Manticore. The war between Manticore and Haven, did not result in a victory by Haven (giving it an attack route into the League). Instead Manticore's technological advantage gave it a path to outright victory and the Malign in panic tried a brute force attack with Oyster Bay to swing the war back. Meanwhile the infiltration of Mesa delivered Herlander Simões to the combatants, with his information about the plan. This resulted in the Grand Alliance, that had no trouble in defeating the Solarian League in a "Short Victorious War". Although the Solarian League was stripped of all influence in the Verge, it mostly has not disintegrated. What separate pieces have developed are all a match for the Renaissance Factor, meaning that it will NOT be the nucleus of the new League that will dominate space.

So what is required to reestablish the plan? The Malign, lurking in the background, has to infiltrate the new power centers with its agents (a task made more difficult by the tendency of those agents to die at the first question). It then has to restart a war between those power centers, with the Renaissance Factor remaining neutral.

Meanwhile the Mesan Engagement is implementing the original Detweiler Plan, with the result that there could be a general uplift of people without the control of any planning board. The Detweilers of the Malign will NOT have control of that uplift.

I don't because the end game is still achievable. Off the rails means derailed and immobile. It isn't off the rails, it has simply jumped tracks. The GA pulled the rail switch and detoured the train about a much longer path. But the train is still moving.

I agree that quite a bit of the middle game has been upset - bypassed by the switch - but the endgame is what matters. If it is still achievable, then what is really lost?