Honorverse ramblings and musings

cthia wrote:The entire chapter forty-four of Ashes of Victory causes my head to swell with so many questions with every read. I might as well share my concerns. After all, misery loves company.

Never mix business with pleasure. This was a business trip. Why was it conducted aboard pleasure palaces?

High level business tends to be conducted in comfortable surroundings. Yachts of heads of state are certainly already that, and they're already built with as much security as means and the appreciation of the threat environment jointly suggest are reasonable.

Why was there ever a time that royal yachts were little more than eggshells without defenses? Without significant defenses that included a platform with a thick hide. Anything less than a specially made SDs hide shouldn't be acceptable. I always envisioned the Queen's personal mode of transportation out of system to be the Honorverse equivalent of Airforce One -- a heavily modified SD that's a rabid badass commanded by an equally rabid badass.

You protect your Queen. Always!

Are you a Peep agent? Why else would someone suggest blowing one of the RMN's precious capital ships on a swell, cushy ride, far behind the lines? Resources aren't infinite! I'm sure the Queen's Own would like to wrap the Queen up in the whole of Home Fleet, but Home Fleet's got other things to do. So does every capital ship in the fleet.

Cordelia Ransom was, at almost that same time, mocked for converting one of the People's Republic's numerous BC's into her own personal ride, office, and PR studio. After the Cromarty Assassination, the High Ridge government - in a time of practical peace - converted a BC into the next royal yacht as part of another scandalous boondoggle. It's a very nice ride, but I suspect Cordelia Ransom managed at least as much (evil, granted) work in Tepes as Elizabeth Winton manages in Duke of Cromarty.

This isn't chess. The queen does not represent the next best thing to game-over if lost. This is war and politics. Manticore has a succession and will get along quite well with another monarch. Capital ships held back for Her Majesty's (very rare) jaunts off Manticore represent dubious use of critical resources.

cthia wrote:The entire chapter forty-four of Ashes of Victory causes my head to swell with so many questions with every read. I might as well share my concerns. After all, misery loves company.

Never mix business with pleasure. This was a business trip. Why was it conducted aboard pleasure palaces?

JeffEngel wrote:High level business tends to be conducted in comfortable surroundings. Yachts of heads of state are certainly already that, and they're already built with as much security as means and the appreciation of the threat environment jointly suggest are reasonable.

Does comfortable surroundings and threat environment consider the quadrant of space surrounding your head of state's ship?

cthia wrote:Why was there ever a time that royal yachts were little more than eggshells without defenses? Without significant defenses that included a platform with a thick hide. Anything less than a specially made SDs hide shouldn't be acceptable. I always envisioned the Queen's personal mode of transportation out of system to be the Honorverse equivalent of Airforce One -- a heavily modified SD that's a rabid badass commanded by an equally rabid badass.

You protect your Queen. Always!

JeffEngel wrote:Are you a Peep agent? Why else would someone suggest blowing one of the RMN's precious capital ships on a swell, cushy ride, far behind the lines? Resources aren't infinite! I'm sure the Queen's Own would like to wrap the Queen up in the whole of Home Fleet, but Home Fleet's got other things to do. So does every capital ship in the fleet.

Why? Because this is war. Ask the Peeps.

JeffEngel wrote:Cordelia Ransom was, at almost that same time, mocked for converting one of the People's Republic's numerous BC's into her own personal ride, office, and PR studio. After the Cromarty Assassination, the High Ridge government - in a time of practical peace - converted a BC into the next royal yacht as part of another scandalous boondoggle. It's a very nice ride, but I suspect Cordelia Ransom managed at least as much (evil, granted) work in Tepes as Elizabeth Winton manages in Duke of Cromarty.

This isn't chess. The queen does not represent the next best thing to game-over if lost. This is war and politics. Manticore has a succession and will get along quite well with another monarch. Capital ships held back for Her Majesty's (very rare) jaunts off Manticore represent dubious use of critical resources.

No it isn't chess. In chess you can resuscitate your dead to play again. Cordelia Ranson was not the Queen or the President.

JeffEngel wrote:The queen does not represent the next best thing to game-over if lost. This is war and politics. Manticore has a succession and will get along quite well with another monarch.

There's a collective giggle gaining momentum around the table amongst those who too clearly remember the political situation and the disaster it meant to the war effort when simply a new Prime Minister was seated. You're suggesting the loss of the Queen and an important assembly of officials, family, and your most important naval officer du jour to not have a devastating effect politically on the war effort?

And didn't Honor teach us about our senseless misgivings of "dubious uses of critical resources?"

JeffEngel wrote:

cthia wrote:The entire chapter forty-four of Ashes of Victory causes my head to swell with so many questions with every read. I might as well share my concerns. After all, misery loves company.

Never mix business with pleasure. This was a business trip. Why was it conducted aboard pleasure palaces?

High level business tends to be conducted in comfortable surroundings. Yachts of heads of state are certainly already that, and they're already built with as much security as means and the appreciation of the threat environment jointly suggest are reasonable.

Why was there ever a time that royal yachts were little more than eggshells without defenses? Without significant defenses that included a platform with a thick hide. Anything less than a specially made SDs hide shouldn't be acceptable. I always envisioned the Queen's personal mode of transportation out of system to be the Honorverse equivalent of Airforce One -- a heavily modified SD that's a rabid badass commanded by an equally rabid badass.

You protect your Queen. Always!

Are you a Peep agent? Why else would someone suggest blowing one of the RMN's precious capital ships on a swell, cushy ride, far behind the lines? Resources aren't infinite! I'm sure the Queen's Own would like to wrap the Queen up in the whole of Home Fleet, but Home Fleet's got other things to do. So does every capital ship in the fleet.

Cordelia Ransom was, at almost that same time, mocked for converting one of the People's Republic's numerous BC's into her own personal ride, office, and PR studio. After the Cromarty Assassination, the High Ridge government - in a time of practical peace - converted a BC into the next royal yacht as part of another scandalous boondoggle. It's a very nice ride, but I suspect Cordelia Ransom managed at least as much (evil, granted) work in Tepes as Elizabeth Winton manages in Duke of Cromarty.

This isn't chess. The queen does not represent the next best thing to game-over if lost. This is war and politics. Manticore has a succession and will get along quite well with another monarch. Capital ships held back for Her Majesty's (very rare) jaunts off Manticore represent dubious use of critical resources.

First cthia appears to be overestimating the sensors on the current Air Force One. Yes, they're a somewhat modified 747 and have some limited missile detection and countermeasures installed. But they're a long way from having the radar capabilities of an F-22, much less an AWACs. And it's totally unarmed, just like the RMN's previous Royal yacht.

But lets look at some historic examples. FDR's Presidental Yacht, including during WW-II, was an ex-Coast Guard cutter USS Potomac and she was only armed with a single 3"/23 gun.

As far as I can tell there wasn't even a fire control computer or lead computing sight for it, so it wasn't even particularly useful against single airplanes.


Now Rosevelt did occassionaly travel on USN ships instead. But for that he used the cruiser USS Augusta (CA-31) which, by the time the war started, was an aging 10-year old heavy cruiser. A far cry from a post-treaty battleship.

Then when Rosevelt traveled to Casablanca he did so on a Pan Am Flying Boat, the Dixie Clipper; which carries no weapons, radar, or ECM. And for his summit in Yalta with Churchill and Stalin he used another older cruiser, the USS Quincy, and then a converted C-54 Skymaster, the Sacred Cow, which was also AFAIK unarmed.


Heads of State, even in wartime, rarely travel in the toughest warships their nation has (Churchill's trip to Newfoundland in the brand new HMS Prince of Wales being the obvious counterexample).

cthia wrote:The entire chapter forty-four of Ashes of Victory causes my head to swell with so many questions with every read. I might as well share my concerns. After all, misery loves company.

Never mix business with pleasure. This was a business trip. Why was it conducted aboard pleasure palaces?

JeffEngel wrote:High level business tends to be conducted in comfortable surroundings. Yachts of heads of state are certainly already that, and they're already built with as much security as means and the appreciation of the threat environment jointly suggest are reasonable.

cthia wrote:Does comfortable surroundings and threat environment consider the quadrant of space surrounding your head of state's ship?

Certainly. In this case, it was a visit to a securely held star system (Yeltsin's Star had a rep by then of a black hole for PN forces), under sensor coverage, in a time when the enemy was far, far away and taking a beating that would not likely spare forces for a coincidental attack on Yeltsin's Star. And the threat that did emerge was one outside known or expected technological capabilities that still required inside help that anyone would have thought would have been stopped by the regular, thorough security measures there.

Something must be left to chance. Everything but things that could not have been foreseen was addressed by the security measures in place. Throwing capital ships at outside possibilities that (1) no one can see ahead of time but (2) might still be stopped by a lot of armor is blowing resources to satisfy a security demand that's become a fetish.

JeffEngel wrote:The queen does not represent the next best thing to game-over if lost. This is war and politics. Manticore has a succession and will get along quite well with another monarch.

There's a collective giggle gaining momentum around the table amongst those who too clearly remember the political situation and the disaster it meant to the war effort when simply a new Prime Minister was seated. You're suggesting the loss of the Queen and an important assembly of officials, family, and your most important naval officer du jour to not have a devastating effect politically on the war effort?

And didn't Honor teach us about our senseless misgivings of "dubious uses of critical resources?"

She was a lucky break for her monarchs to compensate for the unlucky break generated by a plot that lots of care and effort for security couldn't pick up. And if she hadn't, then we'd have a new King in Manticore and a new Protector (under a Regency, alas) in Grayson, along with a lot of other people dead.

I'm not going to suggest that's not a bad thing, but you can go too far for security. Whatever ship is stuck guarding the monarch isn't on the front, where it's needed. And it took a one-off shot at those monarchs that didn't have a terribly high chance of success to get that. You can easily waste resources trying to cover every possible base, and you probably would to cover that one - if you're not counting on hindsight to narrow the necessary changes down to something manageable.

Boy are you wrong about AFO, the plane has basic defenses namely ECM, chaff and flare launchers. It is damn expensive to escort AFO every where, plus how would it look diplomatically if AFO flew say to England or Russia escorted by a squadron of F-15. (oh yeah that'l go over big) When President G W Bush flew into Iraq a few years ago he didn't fly in the AFO 747 he normally jets around in, he flew in a C-17 (with a special call-sign) with a couple of special trailers in the cargo bay.

saber964 wrote:Boy are you wrong about AFO, the plane has basic defenses namely ECM, chaff and flare launchers. It is damn expensive to escort AFO every where, plus how would it look diplomatically if AFO flew say to England or Russia escorted by a squadron of F-15. (oh yeah that'l go over big) When President G W Bush flew into Iraq a few years ago he didn't fly in the AFO 747 he normally jets around in, he flew in a C-17 (with a special call-sign) with a couple of special trailers in the cargo bay.

And whatever else they are concealing on the right side of the plane that they always keep hidden. Other than the President's quarters.

JeffEngel wrote:

cthia wrote:The entire chapter forty-four of Ashes of Victory causes my head to swell with so many questions with every read. I might as well share my concerns. After all, misery loves company.

Never mix business with pleasure. This was a business trip. Why was it conducted aboard pleasure palaces?

High level business tends to be conducted in comfortable surroundings. Yachts of heads of state are certainly already that, and they're already built with as much security as means and the appreciation of the threat environment jointly suggest are reasonable.

Why was there ever a time that royal yachts were little more than eggshells without defenses? Without significant defenses that included a platform with a thick hide. Anything less than a specially made SDs hide shouldn't be acceptable. I always envisioned the Queen's personal mode of transportation out of system to be the Honorverse equivalent of Airforce One -- a heavily modified SD that's a rabid badass commanded by an equally rabid badass.

You protect your Queen. Always!

Are you a Peep agent? Why else would someone suggest blowing one of the RMN's precious capital ships on a swell, cushy ride, far behind the lines? Resources aren't infinite! I'm sure the Queen's Own would like to wrap the Queen up in the whole of Home Fleet, but Home Fleet's got other things to do. So does every capital ship in the fleet.

Cordelia Ransom was, at almost that same time, mocked for converting one of the People's Republic's numerous BC's into her own personal ride, office, and PR studio. After the Cromarty Assassination, the High Ridge government - in a time of practical peace - converted a BC into the next royal yacht as part of another scandalous boondoggle. It's a very nice ride, but I suspect Cordelia Ransom managed at least as much (evil, granted) work in Tepes as Elizabeth Winton manages in Duke of Cromarty.

This isn't chess. The queen does not represent the next best thing to game-over if lost. This is war and politics. Manticore has a succession and will get along quite well with another monarch. Capital ships held back for Her Majesty's (very rare) jaunts off Manticore represent dubious use of critical resources.

Johnathan_S wrote:First cthia appears to be overestimating the sensors on the current Air Force One. Yes, they're a somewhat modified 747 and have some limited missile detection and countermeasures installed. But they're a long way from having the radar capabilities of an F-22, much less an AWACs. And it's totally unarmed, just like the RMN's previous Royal yacht.

But lets look at some historic examples. FDR's Presidental Yacht, including during WW-II, was an ex-Coast Guard cutter USS Potomac and she was only armed with a single 3"/23 gun.

As far as I can tell there wasn't even a fire control computer or lead computing sight for it, so it wasn't even particularly useful against single airplanes.


Now Rosevelt did occassionaly travel on USN ships instead. But for that he used the cruiser USS Augusta (CA-31) which, by the time the war started, was an aging 10-year old heavy cruiser. A far cry from a post-treaty battleship.

Then when Rosevelt traveled to Casablanca he did so on a Pan Am Flying Boat, the Dixie Clipper; which carries no weapons, radar, or ECM. And for his summit in Yalta with Churchill and Stalin he used another older cruiser, the USS Quincy, and then a converted C-54 Skymaster, the Sacred Cow, which was also AFAIK unarmed.


Heads of State, even in wartime, rarely travel in the toughest warships their nation has (Churchill's trip to Newfoundland in the brand new HMS Prince of Wales being the obvious counterexample).

I may be guilty of overestimating AFO's sensor capability. Just a little. lol

Current Presidents have different options and capabilities available to them. First, they need the capability to stay aloft indefinitely. A fuel guzzling fighter can't deliver that. AFO also needs unlimited range, fighter planes can't deliver that. Fighter planes are also two-seaters at best and cannot host a flying command center, replete with all communications options. But they are escorted by the best the navy has to offer.

Certainly, if present Earth had the same capabilities of Manticore do you seriously doubt that AFO would be a fully tricked out SD, BC at least?

My point is this. The navy balks at Honor flying her flag on anything less than a fully equipped armored SD. Is the Honor of the Queen worth less than that?

When FDR sailed aboard USN ships he sailed on Fleet Flagships. USS Augusta was Atlantic FF when he sailed in the Pacific it was USS Chicago Pacific FF. FYI USS Houston was Asiatic FF. Except when he went to the Tehran Conference he sailed aboard the newly commissioned battleship USS Iowa. The Iowa is and remains the only ship ever commissioned in the USN with a bathtub.

cthia wrote:My point is this. The navy balks at Honor flying her flag on anything less than a fully equipped armored SD. Is the Honor of the Queen worth less than that?

It's not so much for the protection of the Salamander. It's to maintain command of the fleet, and to do so compatible with the fleet's general effectiveness. The flag bridge and staff support portions of a SD are a rather trivial portion of the total SD, which is built to fight. It's built to be right there where fire is being sent out and received - built to deliver it, built to take it. Putting a commander in that keeps the commander where she needs to be to work, and it's not taking the ship away from where it does its work or diverting it from it.

The Queen does not command fleets. She's not where the fighting is. Plenty effort is taken to keep her away from that, quite successfully. It's only in the case of total failure of all such efforts that armor and sidewalls around the monarch serve any point, and all that stupendous effort is in that case taken away from where you have, otherwise, any expectation of needing firepower or armor.

cthia wrote:My point is this. The navy balks at Honor flying her flag on anything less than a fully equipped armored SD. Is the Honor of the Queen worth less than that?

Well, for one, the Queen isn't going to be headed deeply into Haven space on a series of desperate raids in which the odds are stacked against her by very capable opponents.

The reigning Manticoran monarchs rarely, if ever, left the star system. Their space travels would have been between the three planets of that system. That will certainly change now that Manticore has a multi-system empire, but until the Grayson visit, it was a rare occurence indeed.