Honorverse Top Ten Tacticians, Strategists

stewart wrote:By the time Barnett happened, Amos Parnell was recovering (if you can call it that) from Corporal (Brigadier) Tresca's hammer on Hades.
Parnell was arrested and (not)executed after 3rd Yeltsin.

-- Stewart

I'm talking about the events of Short Victorious War - Parnell left Nouveau Paris to go coordinate the strategy from Barnett before the war officially started. Not much of it was a resounding success.

My bold.

That said, I put Parnell and Courvosier in the strategist list as we have seen Parnell more in the strategy roll and Raul taught a generation of captains and admirals on strategy and tactics. Both could be on both, however as I noted I feel the strategist role is the greater of the two arts.

-- Stewart

That's a rather interesting statement Stewart. I suppose it would come down to which side of the junction you're sitting. An officer and his CO would rather he be long on tactics and short on strategy if the shit hits the fan.

And I suppose a CO would rather his orders come from someone high above who has a handle on strategy, or him and his fleet could find themselves downwind.

To me, that's a hard call. Unless I'm the CO responsible for lives under my command. Then I'll take the short end of the stick in strategy any day.

cthia wrote:My bold.

That said, I put Parnell and Courvosier in the strategist list as we have seen Parnell more in the strategy roll and Raul taught a generation of captains and admirals on strategy and tactics. Both could be on both, however as I noted I feel the strategist role is the greater of the two arts.

-- Stewart

That's a rather interesting statement Stewart. I suppose it would come down to which side of the junction you're sitting. An officer and his CO would rather he be long on tactics and short on strategy if the shit hits the fan.

And I suppose a CO would rather his orders come from someone high above who has a handle on strategy, or him and his fleet could find themselves downwind.

To me, that's a hard call. Unless I'm the CO responsible for lives under my command. Then I'll take the short end of the stick in strategy any day.

---------------

For the Task Force CO or Squadron CO, they must be strong on tactics -- they are the one's at the pointy end of the stick.
For the CNO or Ministry level, Strategy must be strong -- they are NOT at the pointy end, but the decisions they make, the resources they provide, and the long-term planning and policies affect what those ship, squadron and task force CO's have to work with.

Example -- During the mid- to late 1970's, decisions made in DC meant that ship CO's sometimes did not have the fuel to get underway or accomplish missions.

Janacek's decisions to build a new Navy admin building (besides lining the pockets of contractors) took funding that "could" have been used for first generation Nike BC's (just to name a project).

-- Stewart

cthia wrote:A small snippet of my niece's email to me.

<snip>
Idiots Uncle. Simply idiots. And mother is worried that I'll fall for one of these simpletons? I'm surprised that they can actually read. Being a college student doesn't guarantee intelligence does it? How can Lester Tourville not be on three of the lists? For goodness sake! And Hamish Alexander is listed at ninth place on one of the lists? At first I thought they just hadn't read all of the stories, but they have. Were you a jackass in college as well Uncle?

<snip>
One guy has Hamish ahead of Honor. Ok, I respect that, however if he thinks Hamish is so talented how can he not have Esther McQueen on his list? After all, McQueen was his one match at Trevor's Star, perhaps even better than he! <snip>

My sister is a bit irritated with me that my twelve year old niece is so upset with a group of eleven college students she recently met at her piano recital. They've been communicating about the top 10 tacticians in the Honorverse. And it is quite heated. They are arguing over position on the list and certain people not making the list. I admit, it is difficult to do. I'm too chicken to send her my list. She's so hot at the moment that she'd melt a geiger counter at ten paces! Choose your top ten, in descending order. Even someone not on the list. Only ten can be sent to Honorverse Tactician's Hall of Fame.

-Honor Harrington
-Lester Tourville
-Hamish Alexander
-Aivars Terekhov
-Javier Giscard
-Michelle Henke
-Sebastian D'Orville
-Theodosia Kuzak
-Mark Sarnow
-Augustus Khumalo
-Alice Truman
-Esther Mcqueen
-Yancey Parks
-Judah Yanakov
-Alfredo Yu
-Thomas Theisman
-Francis Yeargin

.

I have been absent for quite a while (to my shame) but it has been incredibly nice to read that post not only because the discussion about whom to put on the top strategy/tactics list was very insightful but also your niece. Don´t meet many intelligent adult people, a 12 year old? Wow Are you sure she didn´t get prolong Anyway there have been amazing points made.

I won´t add my own list...for now at least. But what I can´t stress enough is the accounting of the Alignment faction. As a few people mentioned.

Most we can say about individual skill sets are examples that happened in the book. So by that standard I would put quite a few Alignment "agents" on the strategy list (possibly the first Detweiler) that planned something hundreds of years in advance? And actually was the one that is responsible for the collapse of the solaria League (or soon to collapse). At least arguable the single most damaging strategy against the arguable most powerful human galactic empire in the history of the honor verse. A strategy so deep even people knowing about it have trouble to understand the full scope of that strategy.

Also to be the odd one out. I would put Victor Cahat very far ahead of most tacticians because (and forgive me if I´m wrong) the list was not specified to the Navy. Cahat always never has a strategy (or anyone that would call what he does a strategy) But his tactics are absolutely perfect. He never messes up because he operates on such narrow margins of error. I don´t think ANYONE could do better in a tactical situation than him if faced with the same odds and resources. He uses everything to his advantage, even his own life (meeting with honor). In my book he is unrivaled as a tactician for the work he does.

Sorry If I made the same points that already have been mentioned, but I´m still not fully done reading up here. It´s good to be back (for however long that will be ) Greetings from Germany everyone!

cthia wrote:A small snippet of my niece's email to me.

<snip>
Idiots Uncle. Simply idiots. And mother is worried that I'll fall for one of these simpletons? I'm surprised that they can actually read. Being a college student doesn't guarantee intelligence does it? How can Lester Tourville not be on three of the lists? For goodness sake! And Hamish Alexander is listed at ninth place on one of the lists? At first I thought they just hadn't read all of the stories, but they have. Were you a jackass in college as well Uncle?

<snip>
One guy has Hamish ahead of Honor. Ok, I respect that, however if he thinks Hamish is so talented how can he not have Esther McQueen on his list? After all, McQueen was his one match at Trevor's Star, perhaps even better than he! <snip>

My sister is a bit irritated with me that my twelve year old niece is so upset with a group of eleven college students she recently met at her piano recital. They've been communicating about the top 10 tacticians in the Honorverse. And it is quite heated. They are arguing over position on the list and certain people not making the list. I admit, it is difficult to do. I'm too chicken to send her my list. She's so hot at the moment that she'd melt a geiger counter at ten paces! Choose your top ten, in descending order. Even someone not on the list. Only ten can be sent to Honorverse Tactician's Hall of Fame.

-Honor Harrington
-Lester Tourville
-Hamish Alexander
-Aivars Terekhov
-Javier Giscard
-Michelle Henke
-Sebastian D'Orville
-Theodosia Kuzak
-Mark Sarnow
-Augustus Khumalo
-Alice Truman
-Esther Mcqueen
-Yancey Parks
-Judah Yanakov
-Alfredo Yu
-Thomas Theisman
-Francis Yeargin

.

NeverendingWar wrote:I have been absent for quite a while (to my shame) but it has been incredibly nice to read that post not only because the discussion about whom to put on the top strategy/tactics list was very insightful but also your niece. Don´t meet many intelligent adult people, a 12 year old? Wow Are you sure she didn´t get prolong Anyway there have been amazing points made.

I won´t add my own list...for now at least. But what I can´t stress enough is the accounting of the Alignment faction. As a few people mentioned.

Most we can say about individual skill sets are examples that happened in the book. So by that standard I would put quite a few Alignment "agents" on the strategy list (possibly the first Detweiler) that planned something hundreds of years in advance? And actually was the one that is responsible for the collapse of the solaria League (or soon to collapse). At least arguable the single most damaging strategy against the arguable most powerful human galactic empire in the history of the honor verse. A strategy so deep even people knowing about it have trouble to understand the full scope of that strategy.

Also to be the odd one out. I would put Victor Cahat very far ahead of most tacticians because (and forgive me if I´m wrong) the list was not specified to the Navy. Cahat always never has a strategy (or anyone that would call what he does a strategy) But his tactics are absolutely perfect. He never messes up because he operates on such narrow margins of error. I don´t think ANYONE could do better in a tactical situation than him if faced with the same odds and resources. He uses everything to his advantage, even his own life (meeting with honor). In my book he is unrivaled as a tactician for the work he does.

Sorry If I made the same points that already have been mentioned, but I´m still not fully done reading up here. It´s good to be back (for however long that will be ) Greetings from Germany everyone!

Thanks for the kind words regarding Tierney. If I showered her with adoration for hours on end, it would not encompass her all. She's simply such a wonderful princess. And we're losing her this year to that institution called ... college. At 13! At 13, my main concern was when ACME would deliver my next kit. Seems I was always ordering some sort of kit. Computer, electronics, chemistry, etc. Everything was ordered through a catalog and took 4-6 weeks delivery in my day. College? Ha!


Your thoughts regarding Detweiler are interesting. I don't recall anyone positioning him on a strategist list. Although, now that you have shed light on it, I think we were in error.

I like the way that you laid it out too - that his strategem was so well conceived that it defies belief. Very good point, and very true.

However, when I consider Detweiler, I think of a famous quote by Oscar Levant...

There's a fine line between genius and insanity.

Welcome back to the forums. First brewski is on the house. Charge the second to Harrington.

I liked Cthia's inclusion of Cachat in the political arena, so with that, I'll put in my list, no particular order but Haven first:

#1 Shannon Foraker: Which seems weird, except she's never lost a battle, even to HMS Wayfarer it was more a "drop shields or die" situation. The fact that she is also honorable won the respect of the RMN, and her actions at 1st Lovat (1 set of keystrokes, 24 "enemy" SD's destroyed has to be SOME kind of a personal record, right?) ability to forecast defenses saved the PN even from the RMN long enough for it to become the RHN.

#2: (tie) Thomas Theisman & Eloise Prichart: Naval tactics and strategy PLUS the strategic political choices that led to the restoration of the Republic.

#4 Victor Cachat: for all of cthia's reasons. Unmatched in the
personal tactical arena. [edit: oops, NeverEnding War's reasons, thanks cthia]

#5: Jennifer Bellefeuille: I have no idea how ultimately good she is; what I do know is that I wouldn't want to go up against her with anything less than overwhelming advantages. (in most games I'm generally considered a tactically sneak who usually wins on attack, if coupled with a tactical defensive genius that forces me to think both ways).

That's five. If you count my tie as one, add Lester Tourville, for being smart enough to listen to Shannon and for being Admiral Theisman, etc.'s sharp end of the sword.

RMN/GSN:

#1 Honor Harrington: (duh). All reasons, tactical, strategic, political, and one on one combat. Even the time she was captured was still a tactical win.

#2 Protector Benjamin: Political genius & great leader
#3 (tie) Elizabeth Winton: for the same reasons

#4 Hamish Alexander: for capturing Trevor's Star, planning and execution of Operaton Buttercup, and as First Space Lord.

#5 Terekhov/Henke: I'm leaning this one towards Terekhov UNDER Henke if that makes sense. I think Michelle is good, but that Terekhov is the sharpest arrow in her quiver, making all of the other arrows better. I'm also giving him extra points for Monica.

Again if you don't like the tie or want to count it as one, add the other choice Terekhov and Henke.

SharkHunter wrote:I liked Cthia's inclusion of Cachat in the political arena, so with that, I'll put in my list, no particular order but Haven first:

#1 Shannon Foraker: Which seems weird, except she's never lost a battle, even to HMS Wayfarer it was more a "drop shields or die" situation. The fact that she is also honorable won the respect of the RMN, and her actions at 1st Lovat (1 set of keystrokes, 24 "enemy" SD's destroyed has to be SOME kind of a personal record, right?) ability to forecast defenses saved the PN even from the RMN long enough for it to become the RHN.

#2: (tie) Thomas Theisman & Eloise Prichart: Naval tactics and strategy PLUS the strategic political choices that led to the restoration of the Republic.

#4 Victor Cachat: for all of cthia's reasons. Unmatched in the
personal tactical arena.

#5: Jennifer Bellefeuille: I have no idea how ultimately good she is; what I do know is that I wouldn't want to go up against her with anything less than overwhelming advantages. (in most games I'm generally considered a tactically sneak who usually wins on attack, if coupled with a tactical defensive genius that forces me to think both ways).

That's five. If you count my tie as one, add Lester Tourville, for being smart enough to listen to Shannon and for being Admiral Theisman, etc.'s sharp end of the sword.

RMN/GSN:

#1 Honor Harrington: (duh). All reasons, tactical, strategic, political, and one on one combat. Even the time she was captured was still a tactical win.

#2 Protector Benjamin: Political genius & great leader
#3 (tie) Elizabeth Winton: for the same reasons

#4 Hamish Alexander: for capturing Trevor's Star, planning and execution of Operaton Buttercup, and as First Space Lord.

#5 Terekhov/Henke: I'm leaning this one towards Terekhov UNDER Henke if that makes sense. I think Michelle is good, but that Terekhov is the sharpest arrow in her quiver, making all of the other arrows better. I'm also giving him extra points for Monica.

Again if you don't like the tie or want to count it as one, add the other choice Terekhov and Henke.

Much as I think it's genius to include Cachat in the running, I can't take the credit for it. It was "NeverendingWar" who came up with it.

Shannon leading the RHN eh? Very interesting, and I like your reasons. Shannon was surely instrumental in the RHN's success. I also looong for her to have a tenure at ship or fleet command. That's a second thing RFC cheated us out of, with the Trevor's Star point of view being the first.

Jennifer Beuillefuille is another sleeper isn't she?

The Detweiler strategy is/has been definitely brilliant and insane. But the recent examples on how they manipulate pretty much the whole known galaxy with all the permutations of what could go wrong operating on such a huge scale is simply insanely brilliant. Macro and Micro so far ahead planned... Another example would be the sleeper agent reporter (sadly forgot her name) the one that explored the Manpower accident on Mesa. Or how they use Manpower and the Ballroom terrorists for their own purposes. Machiavelli would be proud.


Thanks for the warm welcome cthia. Tierney is defying belief all on her own. I will have me a Tilmans to see what the fuss is all about, we germans can be pretty strict with our taste for brews Cheers!

And I´m pretty sure Honor would´t mind a slight increase on her tap either

roseandheather wrote:

Icarium wrote:Not really, no. I think people who are highly talented for tactics tend to not be as talented in long-strategy. In general, they use very different skill sets. Note 'in general'.

Like I said, she's good. But from a meta standpoint, why does Honor have to be the very best at everything?

I frankly don't think she should be for that reason alone, but then I find Michelle far more interesting to me, she has more obvious flaws than Honor and is more well-rounded as a character IMO. And if we don't have absolute proof, I tend to lean towards 'Honor is the best at enough stuff that making her the best at this too is kind of stretching it'.

I'm in your camp, actually. I do love Honor, a lot, but she's not going to make any of my "top ten favorite Honorverse characters" lists. There's no doubt she's the best tactician of her generation and very good at strategy, but there are better strategists in the novels - Esther McQueen, Hamish Alexander, Tom Theisman, Sebastian D'Orville, Theodosia Kuzak, James Webster, and Tom Caparelli, just to name a handful. I'd even throw Augustus Khumalo in there, at least for strategic and not tactical thinking - remember, he made absolutely the right call to leave only a light picket at the Lynx terminus before Monica, though nobody knew it at the time. And that's not even counting Sonja Hemphill, who basically breaks 'strategy' over her knee and rebuilds it to suit her on a regular basis.

Honor's an amazing series anchor, but that doesn't mean she's automatically the best at everything, and I like it much better that way.

Honor isn't on your top ten favorite characters list? I must say Rose, that leaves my mouth agape . And makes me full of wonderment of all the books you've inhaled that I haven't. Jealousy, pure jealousy it is!

Because of all the books I've read, Honor makes a heckuva bid for the top five character spot. And if you give me the female stare and rubber neck, I'd surely bump her to top three. When I'm actually sitting down with a freshly minted copy of a new release about to attack, she's my favorite!

But then, I personally have always gone weak-kneed for the strong female character role. I'm like a baby with a pacifier. And you can't get much stronger than Honor - with the exception of little Sara Crewe from A Little Princess.

Alfredo Yu allowing so many armed Masadans on his battleship was a grievous tactical blunder.

It's like allowing someone's rooks to occupy the eighth row.