Honorverse ramblings and musings

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:

JeffEngel wrote:Right now, Mark Sarnow is holding down both the military governor and fleet commander seats in Silesia. Bachfisch is too far out of practice for commanding Ninth Fleet even re-activated, but he'd be able to do at least as well there as station commander as Khumalo does in Talbott, being about the most senior "old Silesian hand" in the RMN. If Ninth Fleet got its own Admiral Gold Peak counterpart, it'd free up Sarnow for a roving combat command or an Admiralty position.

Jeff, have to disagree about "station commander" status. Khumalo was a serving officer for 40 years while Bachfish was moldering in Silesia; while Bachfish is probably a much better tactician/strategist, he doesn't have any experience as a flag officer/admin type. Khumalo as a Rear Admiral was of the Green, making him very senior as a RAdm.
and also commander of resupply/repair depots close to the front.

While making an honest living in Silesia (and taking out pirates) is experience, it wasn't running any element larger than a squadron.

Bachfish is a little out of practice. Give him command of a heavy cruiser division, (or Reliant IVs) and let him clear out Mesan slaver/smuggler stations for awhile first. More interesting to read--and I just don't think he'd accept being put back in at a rank he'll feel he hasn't earned. He is not one of those political placeholders, and won't be comfortable being jumped in at his "seniority" rate instead of his "real" rate.

Or send him back to the War College first, anyway.

Rob

He'd certainly be leaning on staffers and subordinates for support on the administrative side in ways that Khumalo and most other flag officers don't need to. I'm not claiming they've got the same skill sets, by any means. But he does know where all the bodies in Silesia are buried; who can be trusted, how far, and for what; what needs fixing in Silesia; and how to convey to Silesians that Manticoran administration is neither a flash in the pan nor business as usual. All of that is both crucial and possibly unique.

I suppose, if there were an Imperial Governor position in Silesia like Matsuko has in Talbott, that may be an even better fit for him, but it looks like the station commander is more or less wearing that hat.

It's less jumping him up to an appointment he hasn't "earned" than recognizing that he's got a very particular background appropriate to that specific placement. If it comes with a rank that he's not exercised conventionally, well, having a good staff, having a fleet commander who is an experienced, up-to-date shooter, and it being a station without fleet actions happening anyway should all compensate for his specific weak points.

Theemile wrote:

JeffEngel wrote:Right now, Mark Sarnow is holding down both the military governor and fleet commander seats in Silesia. Bachfisch is too far out of practice for commanding Ninth Fleet even re-activated, but he'd be able to do at least as well there as station commander as Khumalo does in Talbott, being about the most senior "old Silesian hand" in the RMN. If Ninth Fleet got its own Admiral Gold Peak counterpart, it'd free up Sarnow for a roving combat command or an Admiralty position.

I never meant to say Admiral in charge, There are plenty of senior staff positions open and regional and liaison positions to be filled that he would be perfect for.

In some respects, Bachfisch could fill a similar role to Bernadus Van Dort. They've been around most of their systems enough times to understand the cultures, mutual relationships, recent history, where some of the bodies are buried, etc., though obviously Van Dort has far more official presence in Talbott.

Being out of date operationally isn't a problem - just don't give him an actual command. A staff role under Mark Sarnow will do fine - Sarnow's smart enough to maximise Bachfisch as a resource.

JeffEngel wrote:He'd certainly be leaning on staffers and subordinates for support on the administrative side in ways that Khumalo and most other flag officers don't need to. I'm not claiming they've got the same skill sets, by any means. But he does know where all the bodies in Silesia are buried; who can be trusted, how far, and for what; what needs fixing in Silesia; and how to convey to Silesians that Manticoran administration is neither a flash in the pan nor business as usual. All of that is both crucial and possibly unique.

I suppose, if there were an Imperial Governor position in Silesia like Matsuko has in Talbott, that may be an even better fit for him, but it looks like the station commander is more or less wearing that hat.

It's less jumping him up to an appointment he hasn't "earned" than recognizing that he's got a very particular background appropriate to that specific placement. If it comes with a rank that he's not exercised conventionally, well, having a good staff, having a fleet commander who is an experienced, up-to-date shooter, and it being a station without fleet actions happening anyway should all compensate for his specific weak points.

I can see that-my point was, that Bachfish wouldn't. He won't use his "half-pay" rank even at dinner with RMN officers. He does not view himself as an admiral.


Gotta go. Library is closing.

Rob

Best guess Bachfish is probably working as an advisor to Sarnow while he recovers from his wounds. IIRC Sarnow who had similar wounds spent 3 to 5 years recovering. Afterwards don't be surprised if 'Bachfish Shipping' suddenly doesn't start growing in leaps and bounds as Skydome's (and after a quiet word with Klaus and Stacy Haumptman) start throwing shipping contracts Bachfish's way.

Hutch wrote:

Johnathan_S wrote:IIRC we saw a pod based ammo ship in one of the Shadow books that was cranking along at over 600g; implying pretty up to date compensators.

cthia wrote: Somehow I missed that. Ammo ships can pull that type accel? What is the maximum accel of an SD now? I always considered ammo ships to carry at least the tonnage as the biggest freighters with considerably less accel than 600g.

I'm not doubting Johnathan, just surprised. This means that an ammo ship the size of the biggest freighter can outrun a Solarian BC. Now that... is just... embarrassing.

I think (albeit I could be wrong) that this is what Johnathan was thinking--it is from Mission of Honor, but is during the Battle of Spindle, as Mike Henke brings her BC's in on Crandall's rear:

....At eighty percent power, Michelle's trio of four million-ton milspec ammunition ships—HMS Mauna Loa, New Popocatépetl, and Nova Kilimanjaro—could manage a hundred gravities more than the Solly SDs' maximum military acceleration; running flat out they could manage over six hundred and fifty gravities, while her Nikes could top six hundred and seventy.

That's the quote I was thinking of. (And why I couldn't find it just now when I searched the ebook of the Shadow series). Thank you; not finding that was going to bug me.

(Oddly HMS Volcano in SoS could only do 350 g; but she many have been a bigger ship)



I'd come across that quote when I was digging through all the books for refit accelerations for my spreadsheet. But I didn't keep the info because without a stated power level (whether 80%, 90%, or flat out) those accel points where throwing too much uncertainty. (In hindsight I should have left them a just references without actually plugging the numbers into the rest of the spreadsheet; that way I could find the half-remembered things again)

Jonathan_S" quote="Hutch wrote:

Johnathan_S wrote:IIRC we saw a pod based ammo ship in one of the Shadow books that was cranking along at over 600g; implying pretty up to date compensators.

cthia wrote: Somehow I missed that. Ammo ships can pull that type accel? What is the maximum accel of an SD now? I always considered ammo ships to carry at least the tonnage as the biggest freighters with considerably less accel than 600g.

I'm not doubting Johnathan, just surprised. This means that an ammo ship the size of the biggest freighter can outrun a Solarian BC. Now that... is just... embarrassing.

I think (albeit I could be wrong) that this is what Johnathan was thinking--it is from Mission of Honor, but is during the Battle of Spindle, as Mike Henke brings her BC's in on Crandall's rear:

....At eighty percent power, Michelle's trio of four million-ton milspec ammunition ships—HMS Mauna Loa, New Popocatépetl, and Nova Kilimanjaro—could manage a hundred gravities more than the Solly SDs' maximum military acceleration; running flat out they could manage over six hundred and fifty gravities, while her Nikes could top six hundred and seventy.

That's the quote I was thinking of. (And why I couldn't find it just now when I searched the ebook of the Shadow series). Thank you; not finding that was going to bug me.

(Oddly HMS Volcano in SoS could only do 350 g; but she many have been a bigger ship)



I'd come across that quote when I was digging through all the books for refit accelerations for my spreadsheet. But I didn't keep the info because without a stated power level (whether 80%, 90%, or flat out) those accel points where throwing too much uncertainty. (In hindsight I should have left them a just references without actually plugging the numbers into the rest of the spreadsheet; that way I could find the half-remembered things again)[/quote]


It also depends on the age of the ship. In the RW early 90's the USN was still using WWII era Cimmaron class oiler's top speed 16 or 18 knots. Versus the more modern Wichita or Sacramento and Supply class ships which had a top speed of 20 and 26 knots

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:

cthia wrote:


A related aside:
First, what is the status of Pirate's Bane? Didn't it take serious damage when Bachfisch conducted his intel-op for Honor?

That post also brought up other questions. I don't remember that Pirate's Bane was an Andermani ship. I thought the Admiralty inconspicuously made it possible for Bachfisch to acquire Pirate's Bane - which made me think it was a Manty ship. I remember Bachfisch made repairs on it. But what yard affected the repairs and where would he get Andermani replacement parts? Also, if Pirates Bane is a hodgepodge of tech wouldn't it benefit from the much discarded Solly junk? Or is it that Andermani tech is fairly close to RMN tech? Unless, of course, Pirate's Bane keeps getting Andermani replacement parts.

And, does anyone know the last max accel of the Bane?

ok, you already got the status update, so here is the origin info, from WoH. --Rob

Captain Thomas Bachfisch, owner and master of the armed merchant ship Pirates' Bane, was a lean, spare man with a thin, lined face. He was more than a little stoop-shouldered, and despite his immaculately tailored blue civilian uniform, he did not cut an impressive figure. Nor, for that matter, did Pirates' Bane. At around five million tons, the freighter was of little more than average size for most regions of space, although she did tend towards the upper end of the tonnage range here in Silesia. But although she was obviously well maintained, she was not—despite her defiantly aggressive name—much to look at. To an experienced eye, it was apparent that she was at least half a T-century old, and probably a product of the now-defunct Gopfert Yard in the New Berlin System. Gopfert had once been one of the busiest shipyards in the entire Andermani Empire, supplying not only the Empire's great merchant houses but also building warships and auxiliaries for the Imperial Navy.

That doesn't say anything about Pirate's Bane having been built as a collier. Is there textev for that? Might it have been a civilian ship originally?

You know, now that I think of it, I can't recall any battles other than at Zanzibar where missile colliers were used in any fashion. I only recall the worry of the possibility of the opposing enemy combatant having them. There must have been plenty of times that colliers were sent out.

The thing that has made me go "hmmm" is wondering what type escort would normally draw that duty? My thinking, frequently flawed as it is, is that an ammo ship stock full of so much classified technology has to have a serious escort. Since the collier itself is impotent in battle the escort has to be formidable. Or it would be well worth it to an enemy to commit huge losses to capturing the collier in hopes of a windfall in tech. Certainly the RMN wouldn't want to make it a habit of self-destructing colliers. The problem then becomes how many ships would the RMN have available to act as escorts with so many simultaneous prongs of the war effort?

Some of you astute readers may already see where I'm headed with this. Most battles I remember could also have used even a single additional ship. And reinforcements, ship wise, were either not available, arriving too late in the engagement, or relegated to "ships in the mail" from Admiralty. The escorts of a particular collier would have been just as important as the collier itself. The entire escort would probably be commandeered into the CO order of battle. I don't ever recall that happening. Although it must have and I just don't recall. I do remember an instance where friendlies were short stopped and absorbed by the CO on station (can't recall the particular incident) but I don't think the ships were part of an escort.

JIT edit:
I do vaguely remember, just in time, for this posting, that Henke received an ammo ship prior to the Battle of Spindle. I don't recall what the escort was, but in anticipating Sandra Crandall, I would think that she absorbed the escort itself as well.

The meaning of this entire point is in wondering where the Admiralty was able to constantly shake ships loose from to provide escorts for colliers all over the Haven system.

cthia wrote:You know, now that I think of it, I can't recall any battles other than at Zanzibar where missile colliers were used in any fashion. I only recall the worry of the possibility of the opposing enemy combatant having them. There must have been plenty of times that colliers were sent out.

The thing that has made me go "hmmm" is wondering what type escort would normally draw that duty? My thinking, frequently flawed as it is, is that an ammo ship stock full of so much classified technology has to have a serious escort. Since the collier itself is impotent in battle the escort has to be formidable. Or it would be well worth it to an enemy to commit huge losses to capturing the collier in hopes of a windfall in tech. Certainly the RMN wouldn't want to make it a habit of self-destructing colliers. The problem then becomes how many ships would the RMN have available to act as escorts with so many simultaneous prongs of the war effort?

Remember the Battle of Hyacinth, in Terekhov's flashbacks? He had a division or so of light cruisers escorting a convoy of freighters stuffed with MDM resupplies for Eighth Fleet. Only two freighters escaped; the other six were destroyed, along with their escorts, when a Peep counterattack briefly retook Hyacinth.

There's no hard and fast rule for convoy escorts. Back in HotQ, two cruisers and two destroyers were considered adequate. In IEH, a heavy cruiser squadron. I think in EoH/AoV a training simulation had two DNs escorting a convoy. It all depends on a number of factors, mainly threat assessment and escort availability.

The problem is, there are usually a high number of convoys going around. It is impossible to cover all of them against the maximum possible threats(BC or even BB+ raiders), especially as enemy raiders can pick and choose what to attack. We only really hear about the few that are attacked; the vast majority of convoys arrive safely.

munroburton wrote:The problem is, there are usually a high number of convoys going around. It is impossible to cover all of them against the maximum possible threats(BC or even BB+ raiders), especially as enemy raiders can pick and choose what to attack. We only really hear about the few that are attacked; the vast majority of convoys arrive safely.

That's helped by the fact that it takes a massive investment in raiders to hope to detect and intercept in hyper especially if they take even slightly evasive routing; so convoys are normally only vulnerable at their layovers in n-space.

That's where Honor got captured, while scouting Adler, and how Terekhov got ambushed in Hyacinth. But its really not feasible to equip every convoy going to a supply base with an escort powerful enough to defeat a force capable of having punched out that system's defenders.

And for the most part you mitigate that risk with better signalling. Now FTL comms are plentiful enough that any system you'd be sending a convoy to would be expected to have them, so send one of your escorts ahead and if they don't return with an "all ok" from the system defenders have the convoy bug out.

The other place colliers are at risk is when they accompany raiding forces. But for most the the trip their escort is the entire raiding force; which would seem to constitute a strong escort. Then when they peel off from the raid they're protected by the vastness of space - pick an out of the way part of n-space or hyper and leave the colliers there with a few DDs to keep an eye on them. Possibly consolidate that with the holding spot for an CLACs that dropped their loads and fell back.