Honorverse ramblings and musings

SWM wrote:

cthia wrote:Are you certain that McQueen and Hamish didn't go up against each other until she was recalled? IIRC, she was recalled after Hamish received technological upgrades that she wouldn't be able to equal. She spanked Hamish's ass for quite a while. He even commented that she was a better tactician.

McQueen and White Haven never directly faced each other in battle, as far as I recall. McQueen was based at Barnett, and controlled the front line from there. I don't think she led any attacks out of Barnett; that was handled by her other admirals. White Haven did not attack Barnett until McQueen was already gone.

But my point was that after Hamish's campaign reached Trevor's Star then his missile colliers would likewise be utilized to rearm for continued offenses against McQueen's defensive posture in the same battle. Since McQueen had a tactical advantage of the interior position at Trevor's Star, it seems likely that Hamish would seek every advantage of his own. Quick rearming and going back in before McQueen could lick her wounds and reset seems quite palpable.

There is no textev that White Haven used missile colliers to rearm in battle. The description David has given of the battle does not say anything about missile colliers being present at the Battle of Trevor's Star at all. Given the way the battle evolved, it does not seem possible that he could have rearmed from missile colliers at any point. At no point did White Haven withdraw any of his ships from the battle.

Actually, I think that White Haven and Kuzak must have at least tested the defenses at Trevor's Star once or twice before the decisive attack--their lack of success was what led them to a strategy of destroying the surrounding support bases, wasn't it? Unfortunately for us, all of that was offscreen, just like WH's win in Chelsea.

ISTR she got the job of defending Trevor's Star as a reward for her part of Stalking Horse going well? So while Honor is out in Silesia, 6th Fleet had the job of dealing with the front. . . .


Or, my memory is just hosed. That happens too.

Rob

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:Actually, I think that White Haven and Kuzak must have at least tested the defenses at Trevor's Star once or twice before the decisive attack--their lack of success was what led them to a strategy of destroying the surrounding support bases, wasn't it? Unfortunately for us, all of that was offscreen, just like WH's win in Chelsea.

ISTR she got the job of defending Trevor's Star as a reward for her part of Stalking Horse going well? So while Honor is out in Silesia, 6th Fleet had the job of dealing with the front. . . .


Or, my memory is just hosed. That happens too.

Rob

No, I don't think so. Remember that this was back when naval philosophy was to push the perimeter forward. To defeat an entrenched position, you cut off supply lines as much as you can and take out peripheral areas until you can mass your full strength against the hard target. As far as I can recall, there is no text suggesting any attacks on Trevor's Star until White Haven's successful invasion. In fact, I believe the text talks about the long wait of the defenders, anxiously looking for the axe would eventually fall.

SWM wrote:

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:Actually, I think that White Haven and Kuzak must have at least tested the defenses at Trevor's Star once or twice before the decisive attack--their lack of success was what led them to a strategy of destroying the surrounding support bases, wasn't it? Unfortunately for us, all of that was offscreen, just like WH's win in Chelsea.

ISTR she got the job of defending Trevor's Star as a reward for her part of Stalking Horse going well? So while Honor is out in Silesia, 6th Fleet had the job of dealing with the front. . . .


Or, my memory is just hosed. That happens too.

Rob

No, I don't think so. Remember that this was back when naval philosophy was to push the perimeter forward. To defeat an entrenched position, you cut off supply lines as much as you can and take out peripheral areas until you can mass your full strength against the hard target. As far as I can recall, there is no text suggesting any attacks on Trevor's Star until White Haven's successful invasion. In fact, I believe the text talks about the long wait of the defenders, anxiously looking for the axe would eventually fall.

That'd be my assessment of the campaign to Trevor's Star as well - but perhaps you're recalling the textev about the defenders of Barnett? The sense of a long wait there was exacerbated by the sudden halt in the RMN advance once they'd taken Trevor's Star. There's more textev of Theisman, Tourville et al operating out of Barnett than there is of Peep-era Trevor's Star, I think.

That strategy was maintained to the end of the war, with a step-by-step advance to just short of Lovat and Haven itself. I have to wonder how much time Hamish spent beating himself up for not going directly to Haven after trashing Barnett's defenses so decisively.

SWM wrote:

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:Actually, I think that White Haven and Kuzak must have at least tested the defenses at Trevor's Star once or twice before the decisive attack--their lack of success was what led them to a strategy of destroying the surrounding support bases, wasn't it? Unfortunately for us, all of that was offscreen, just like WH's win in Chelsea.

ISTR she got the job of defending Trevor's Star as a reward for her part of Stalking Horse going well? So while Honor is out in Silesia, 6th Fleet had the job of dealing with the front. . . .


Or, my memory is just hosed. That happens too.

Rob

No, I don't think so. Remember that this was back when naval philosophy was to push the perimeter forward. To defeat an entrenched position, you cut off supply lines as much as you can and take out peripheral areas until you can mass your full strength against the hard target. As far as I can recall, there is no text suggesting any attacks on Trevor's Star until White Haven's successful invasion. In fact, I believe the text talks about the long wait of the defenders, anxiously looking for the axe would eventually fall.

munroburton wrote:That'd be my assessment of the campaign to Trevor's Star as well - but perhaps you're recalling the textev about the defenders of Barnett? The sense of a long wait there was exacerbated by the sudden halt in the RMN advance once they'd taken Trevor's Star. There's more textev of Theisman, Tourville et al operating out of Barnett than there is of Peep-era Trevor's Star, I think.

That strategy was maintained to the end of the war, with a step-by-step advance to just short of Lovat and Haven itself. I have to wonder how much time Hamish spent beating himself up for not going directly to Haven after trashing Barnett's defenses so decisively.

Remember that the Peeps enjoyed the tactical advantage of having the interior position. Having advantage of the interior position usually makes it much more difficult to cut off supply lines. Like Leonidas and his 300 at Thermopylae.

The battle of Trevor's Star is one aspect we were cheated of. I'd like to witness firsthand the Mad Wizard's account of the advantage of having the interior position at Trevor's Star and what it ultimately meant to the Peeps and perhaps how it may have shaped White Haven's ultimate plan and also why he may have ventured outside of his comfort zone.

munroburton wrote:

SWM wrote:No, I don't think so. Remember that this was back when naval philosophy was to push the perimeter forward. To defeat an entrenched position, you cut off supply lines as much as you can and take out peripheral areas until you can mass your full strength against the hard target. As far as I can recall, there is no text suggesting any attacks on Trevor's Star until White Haven's successful invasion. In fact, I believe the text talks about the long wait of the defenders, anxiously looking for the axe would eventually fall.

That'd be my assessment of the campaign to Trevor's Star as well - but perhaps you're recalling the textev about the defenders of Barnett? The sense of a long wait there was exacerbated by the sudden halt in the RMN advance once they'd taken Trevor's Star. There's more textev of Theisman, Tourville et al operating out of Barnett than there is of Peep-era Trevor's Star, I think.

That strategy was maintained to the end of the war, with a step-by-step advance to just short of Lovat and Haven itself. I have to wonder how much time Hamish spent beating himself up for not going directly to Haven after trashing Barnett's defenses so decisively.

You're right--that's Barnett. Somehow I keep linking McQueen and scenes of Barnett. But I'm still pretty sure there is nothing suggesting any attacks on Trevor's Star until White Haven was ready for his big battle.

cthia wrote:Remember that the Peeps enjoyed the tactical advantage of having the interior position. Having advantage of the interior position usually makes it much more difficult to cut off supply lines. Like Leonidas and his 300 at Thermopylae.

The battle of Trevor's Star is one aspect we were cheated of. I'd like to witness firsthand the Mad Wizard's account of the advantage of having the interior position at Trevor's Star and what it ultimately meant to the Peeps and perhaps how it may have shaped White Haven's ultimate plan and also why he may have ventured outside of his comfort zone.

David has posted a couple things relevant to this. Here are a couple I was able to find:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3094&p=68620&hilit=Trevor%27s+Star#p68620

http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... gton/112/1

http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... gton/103/1

SWM wrote:

cthia wrote:Remember that the Peeps enjoyed the tactical advantage of having the interior position. Having advantage of the interior position usually makes it much more difficult to cut off supply lines. Like Leonidas and his 300 at Thermopylae.

The battle of Trevor's Star is one aspect we were cheated of. I'd like to witness firsthand the Mad Wizard's account of the advantage of having the interior position at Trevor's Star and what it ultimately meant to the Peeps and perhaps how it may have shaped White Haven's ultimate plan and also why he may have ventured outside of his comfort zone.

David has posted a couple things relevant to this. Here are a couple I was able to find:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3094&p=68620&hilit=Trevor%27s+Star#p68620

http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... gton/112/1

http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... gton/103/1

Thanks a million for the links. I enjoyed. Trevor's Star is such a fascinating battle and any, even small, morsels I can get of it are quite tasty.

But I have to admit that I thought at least one of the links would outline specifically what enjoying the advantage of the interior position actually meant to the Peeps.

I just thought it interesting that RFC would share that tactical advantage with us but not expound upon it, at least in the most generic way.

On the chess board, overcoming the advantage given someone who has achieved the interior position is difficult and costly. I don't expect the same advantages to equate to space battles but then interior position is interior position and certain advantages are supposed to accompany it. I would really like it laid out in its entirety.

The Peeps advantage of interior position at Trevor's Star undoubtedly shaped White Haven's plans from what he really wanted to do (bore right in) to what he did.

What exactly are missile colliers? More succinctly, what platform are they built on? Are they just huge lumbering freighters?

Here's the thing. I always thought it very ironic that these behemoths are so vulnerable to attack but carrying so many damn missiles. It's like having a house full of weapons - a veritable arsenal - yet cannot defend yourself against even a single intruder wielding a simple .22.

Hell, a pirate can easily overcome a missile collier that has somehow become separated from the pack.

Why can't the things at least be made to shoot back?

"Come any closer and I swear I will shoot myself dry!"

Alanis Morissette would sing:

Having thousands of bullets when all I need is a gun.
Isn't it ironic. Don't ya think. A little too ironic.
I really do think.

cthia wrote:What exactly are missile colliers? More succinctly, what platform are they built on? Are they just huge lumbering freighters?

Here's the thing. I always thought it very ironic that these behemoths are so vulnerable to attack but carrying so many damn missiles. It's like having a house full of weapons - a veritable arsenal - yet cannot defend yourself against even a single intruder wielding a simple .22.

Hell, a pirate can easily overcome a missile collier that has somehow become separated from the pack.

Why can't the things at least be made to shoot back?

"Come any closer and I swear I will shoot myself dry!"

Alanis Morissette would sing:

Having thousands of bullets when all I need is a gun.
Isn't it ironic. Don't ya think. A little too ironic.
I really do think.

We don't know for sure what platform they're built on. Though IIRC they usually have military drives, generator, and rad shielding (like the fast joint transport freighters Honor was escorting in IEH).

IIRC we saw a pod based ammo ship in one of the Shadow books that was cranking along at over 600g; implying pretty up to date compensators.



Yes viewed from the individual ship level it seems counter-intuitive to have all those missiles and no way to fire them. But viewed for the Admiralty level they presumably think that their ammo ships, on the whole, are safer if nobody is ever tempted to expose them to combat unnecessarily.

IOW (especially given that these things are routinely escorted as part of the fleet train) that you'd lose less to raiders by leaving them unarmed than you'd lose from commanders feeling justified/forced to commit them to battle as a 4th rate warship.

cthia wrote:What exactly are missile colliers? More succinctly, what platform are they built on? Are they just huge lumbering freighters?

Here's the thing. I always thought it very ironic that these behemoths are so vulnerable to attack but carrying so many damn missiles. It's like having a house full of weapons - a veritable arsenal - yet cannot defend yourself against even a single intruder wielding a simple .22.

Hell, a pirate can easily overcome a missile collier that has somehow become separated from the pack.

Why can't the things at least be made to shoot back?

"Come any closer and I swear I will shoot myself dry!"

Alanis Morissette would sing:

Having thousands of bullets when all I need is a gun.
Isn't it ironic. Don't ya think. A little too ironic.
I really do think.

Missile colliers are never sent out loaded without escorts. The escorts are responsible for providing defense. It's just like naval colliers today. And they don't just carry missiles; they also carry all the food, water, air, spare uniforms, medical supplies, spare parts, and other sundries for restocking ships. They are not combat ships, and should never be put into a position of entering combat.

If a collier were built with launchers that could fire every missile in the collier, you would also have to install the equipment to move those missiles into the launcher, cutting your capacity in half. It would also slow down loading and unloading. Without that, you can load missiles in huge cargo containers, a dozen at a time.