Honorverse ramblings and musings

cthia wrote:Question. I've always wondered how exactly the mechanics of missile colliers work. During the heat of battle, ships that shoot themselves dry withdraw to quickly re-arm so they can get back to business. But how does the mechanics of rearming work? Is it an automated process? Are there robots of a sort? Is there some port that the Collier connects to, like Nascars getting fuel?

My mind cannot seem to shake an analogy of a Nascar coming in for a quick fill-up at the hands of the pitcrew. "Phuck, I had to get back into the fight. I only received 75 % of my maximum missile load out."

Does anyone know how the enormous stockpile of missiles are quickly reloaded? SD(p)s just have to have some sort of automated process it seems - with so many missiles loaded.

I just can't imagine this correctly in my head.

Missile colliers do not normally rearm ships in the middle of battle. They are intended to rearm ships after the battle.

SWM wrote:

cthia wrote:Question. I've always wondered how exactly the mechanics of missile colliers work. During the heat of battle, ships that shoot themselves dry withdraw to quickly re-arm so they can get back to business. But how does the mechanics of rearming work? Is it an automated process? Are there robots of a sort? Is there some port that the Collier connects to, like Nascars getting fuel?

My mind cannot seem to shake an analogy of a Nascar coming in for a quick fill-up at the hands of the pitcrew. "Phuck, I had to get back into the fight. I only received 75 % of my maximum missile load out."

Does anyone know how the enormous stockpile of missiles are quickly reloaded? SD(p)s just have to have some sort of automated process it seems - with so many missiles loaded.

I just can't imagine this correctly in my head.

Missile colliers do not normally rearm ships in the middle of battle. They are intended to rearm ships after the battle.

I seem to be confusing things in my head, not the first time, or the last.

But I seem to remember textev where there was concern of an enemy combatant rearming and coming back in. And didn't Hamish carry along colliers in his campaign against McQueen? Storyline probably distorts how long it actually takes to rearm, for dramatic effect maybe, but the concern was still there.

cthia wrote:I seem to be confusing things in my head, not the first time, or the last.

But I seem to remember textev where there was concern of an enemy combatant rearming and coming back in. And didn't Hamish carry along colliers in his campaign against McQueen? Storyline probably distorts how long it actually takes to rearm, for dramatic effect maybe, but the concern was still there.

There was one fight at Zanzibar (already referenced upthread as the anomaly) where a Peep force hypered out, met up with colliers and reloaded their pods, then came back before the defending RMN force could overcome it's vector and return in-system. But that's the only example of tactical reloading that I can recall.


Strategic reloading on the other hand is what White Haven was doing. To avoid having to come back to base between systems he brought colliers along to rearm after the fight was over and the Peeps had been blown away. (He might have reloaded in the captured system or might have had a rendezvous in deep space or an unoccupied system on the way to his next target; but in any case all indications are that he was reloaded between fights to be topped up for the next one; but not to reenter an already started tactical fight)

Jonathan_S wrote:

cthia wrote:I seem to be confusing things in my head, not the first time, or the last.

But I seem to remember textev where there was concern of an enemy combatant rearming and coming back in. And didn't Hamish carry along colliers in his campaign against McQueen? Storyline probably distorts how long it actually takes to rearm, for dramatic effect maybe, but the concern was still there.

There was one fight at Zanzibar (already referenced upthread as the anomaly) where a Peep force hypered out, met up with colliers and reloaded their pods, then came back before the defending RMN force could overcome it's vector and return in-system. But that's the only example of tactical reloading that I can recall.


Strategic reloading on the other hand is what White Haven was doing. To avoid having to come back to base between systems he brought colliers along to rearm after the fight was over and the Peeps had been blown away. (He might have reloaded in the captured system or might have had a rendezvous in deep space or an unoccupied system on the way to his next target; but in any case all indications are that he was reloaded between fights to be topped up for the next one; but not to reenter an already started tactical fight)

I don't rightly recall there ever being any other case other than the aforementioned, of any combatant actually reloading either, rather the concern hovering over an opponent's head. I think it was only mentioned at various times in passing as a perceived threat. Which led to my question regarding the mechanics thereof because storyline always gave the impression of an immediate concern. I suppose, as kzt said, it 's something else to attribute to plot. Rather like the launching of LACs - which is still in the back of my mind as well.

At any rate, thanks.


****** *


I forgot to mention that one other related area of concern was, IIRC, textev during one skirmish voiced concern whether a combatant had brought along colliers. I'd wanted to know if the mechanics of the process could take place in hyper - which would seem to infer a docking maneuver. It seems that the one incident of the Peeps was accomplished in hyper.

cthia wrote:I forgot to mention that one other related area of concern was, IIRC, textev during one skirmish voiced concern whether a combatant had brought along colliers. I'd wanted to know if the mechanics of the process could take place in hyper - which would seem to infer a docking maneuver. It seems that the one incident of the Peeps was accomplished in hyper.

Mechanically, if you can do X in normal space, you can do X in hyper - if you're not in a grav wave. If you are in a grav wave, cargo isn't moving anywhere, as neither the cargo nor anything a ship could use to move it to another ship is going to support a sail to survive in the grav wave.

cthia wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:There was one fight at Zanzibar (already referenced upthread as the anomaly) where a Peep force hypered out, met up with colliers and reloaded their pods, then came back before the defending RMN force could overcome it's vector and return in-system. But that's the only example of tactical reloading that I can recall.


Strategic reloading on the other hand is what White Haven was doing. To avoid having to come back to base between systems he brought colliers along to rearm after the fight was over and the Peeps had been blown away. (He might have reloaded in the captured system or might have had a rendezvous in deep space or an unoccupied system on the way to his next target; but in any case all indications are that he was reloaded between fights to be topped up for the next one; but not to reenter an already started tactical fight)

I don't rightly recall there ever being any other case other than the aforementioned, of any combatant actually reloading either, rather the concern hovering over an opponent's head. I think it was only mentioned at various times in passing as a perceived threat. Which led to my question regarding the mechanics thereof because storyline always gave the impression of an immediate concern. I suppose, as kzt said, it 's something else to attribute to plot. Rather like the launching of LACs - which is still in the back of my mind as well.

At any rate, thanks.


****** *


I forgot to mention that one other related area of concern was, IIRC, textev during one skirmish voiced concern whether a combatant had brought along colliers. I'd wanted to know if the mechanics of the process could take place in hyper - which would seem to infer a docking maneuver. It seems that the one incident of the Peeps was accomplished in hyper.

Tourville was supposed to rendezvous with his colliers at BoMa after he was able to get clear of the resonance zone and hyper out of the system. That would allow him to come back with 70-100 rearmed ships an hour (or so?) later, match up with Chin, and face down the planetary defenses with ~200 SD(p)s.

According to RFC, this is what he did at Zanzibar - both his force and the much smaller RMN force ran themselves dry in the initial battle, which pulled the RMN forces into the outer system. He rearmed from his colliers, and jumped back before the RMN ships could return to the inner system and rearm - which allowed him to easily drain their ammo reserves and beat them to snot before tearing up the system. IIRC RMN hinted that the RHN forces were practicing fast rearming drills for this very reason.

To the best of my knowledge, this is the only time we have actually heard of an entire force which ran out of defensive missiles.

I do not remember if it was ever said if it took place in hyper or normal space.

Theemile wrote:Tourville was supposed to rendezvous with his colliers at BoMa after he was able to get clear of the resonance zone and hyper out of the system. That would allow him to come back with 70-100 rearmed ships an hour (or so?) later, match up with Chin, and face down the planetary defenses with ~200 SD(p)s.

According to RFC, this is what he did at Zanzibar - both his force and the much smaller RMN force ran themselves dry in the initial battle, which pulled the RMN forces into the outer system. He rearmed from his colliers, and jumped back before the RMN ships could return to the inner system and rearm - which allowed him to easily drain their ammo reserves and beat them to snot before tearing up the system. IIRC RMN hinted that the RHN forces were practicing fast rearming drills for this very reason.

To the best of my knowledge, this is the only time we have actually heard of an entire force which ran out of defensive missiles.

I do not remember if it was ever said if it took place in hyper or normal space.

Even at Zanzibar did the defenders actually run out of CMs? I rechecked RFC's May 2012 post where he lays out the expanded version of the fight (including the problematic and unnecessary pre-BoM Donkey-Storm reveal) and it doesn't seem to say the RMN defenders ran out of CMs.

What they would have run out of was MDMs; roughly 20% left at the end of phase 1 of the fight when Tourville apparently flees. So when he came back 90 minutes later for phase 2 he's back at 100% MDMs vs their 20%.

Once the Manties exhaust their reserve MDMs he can close the distance and resume deeply stacked pod salvos from optimum range without any concern about return fire disrupting his salvo prep. It almost doesn't matter if the Manties had CMs left; they were totally screwed either way.

Jonathan_S wrote:What they would have run out of was MDMs; roughly 20% left at the end of phase 1 of the fight when Tourville apparently flees. So when he came back 90 minutes later for phase 2 he's back at 100% MDMs vs their 20%.

Once the Manties exhaust their reserve MDMs he can close the distance and resume deeply stacked pod salvos from optimum range without any concern about return fire disrupting his salvo prep. It almost doesn't matter if the Manties had CMs left; they were totally screwed either way.

Actually, 20% is more than home fleet fired...

Jonathan_S wrote:

cthia wrote:I seem to be confusing things in my head, not the first time, or the last.

But I seem to remember textev where there was concern of an enemy combatant rearming and coming back in. And didn't Hamish carry along colliers in his campaign against McQueen? Storyline probably distorts how long it actually takes to rearm, for dramatic effect maybe, but the concern was still there.

There was one fight at Zanzibar (already referenced upthread as the anomaly) where a Peep force hypered out, met up with colliers and reloaded their pods, then came back before the defending RMN force could overcome it's vector and return in-system. But that's the only example of tactical reloading that I can recall.


Strategic reloading on the other hand is what White Haven was doing. To avoid having to come back to base between systems he brought colliers along to rearm after the fight was over and the Peeps had been blown away. (He might have reloaded in the captured system or might have had a rendezvous in deep space or an unoccupied system on the way to his next target; but in any case all indications are that he was reloaded between fights to be topped up for the next one; but not to reenter an already started tactical fight)

Except that I was referring to his single campaign against Trevor's Star. During that campaign, Trevor's Star was the only objective. Rearming from colliers in that instance could be a tactical maneuver as well - seeing as though McQueen didn't get reinforcements, IIRC.

But perhaps the tactical edge is lost if the rearming process was painfully slow. It seems that perhaps the RHN was ahead of the RMN there. Which intensifies my curiosity as to how the RHN accomplished it as opposed to the RMN. Or more succinctly, how did the Peeps accomplish it at Zanzibar?

I suppose some mysteries shall remain.

cthia wrote:Or more succinctly, how did the Peeps accomplish it at Zanzibar?

I suppose some mysteries shall remain.

Nope. David gave a somewhat odd explanation that they used donkeys to reload the ships. It's kind of clever, but somehow ONI never bothered to mention the dramatic increase in firepower to the CO of Home fleet. Or 8th fleet, or 3rd fleet....