Honorverse ramblings and musings

Bill Woods wrote:

George J. Smith wrote:The survivors of Filareters Folly & Crandalls Crazyness were interned as PsOW in the Manticore and Spindle systems respectively. What about the survivors of Bings Bashing?
If I recall they were instructed to land on New Tuscany, which is not part of the SKM or SEM, so what was to stop the New Tuscany administration repatriating the Sollies that were instructed to make landfall there?

Nothing at all. The last we heard of them, they had landed on the planet and their ships had been seized and either disabled or taken away. But they weren't prisoners of either the NTs or the Manties. The Manties even delivered Adm. Sigbee's report on the debacle to Earth. You'd think they'd have somehow arranged transport back to Meyers -- at least a message to come pick them up -- but....

Tee hee - back to Meyers - I wonder if they got there before or after Admiral Gold Peak did? "You weren't prisoners - now, on the other hand...."

kzt wrote:

cthia wrote:So the ~ 5 minutes of my own original estimate isn't so far off? To make sure I understand, from the discussion it seems that the maximum amount of time 'for a desperately running ship' to hyper out of danger could be as high as 10 minutes give or take? And that doesn't include having to reverse engines and getting back to the hyper point. This sounds like a huge window of vulnerability far beyond what I imagined.

When Genevieve Chin ordered the fleet to hyper out when she finally realized that the newcomer was the Salamander sounded like it was just a matter of hitting reverse and getting the hell out. In fact, IIRC, storyline made it sound like it took her far more time for the epiphany of the Salamander having joined the battle to hit her, than it would have taken to translate back out had the order gone out in time. That was a bit confusing.

Unless, ships that have just translated in can almost immediately translate back out since everything is in place and ready? But Chin's ships had been in-system for awhile.

You know, if you read the background material that David provides the Honorverse would be easier to understands.
http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... gton/117/0

This stuff is cool kzt. Thanks abunch. And you are right, it explains much. For instance, tonnage does matter regarding cycle time - which was one of my questions. Now I know what Chin was up against.

I appreciate reading the Pearls, but there is so much info there that finding what you want, when you want it, is an oftentimes daunting task. I can't even find this info from your link within the main site of the Pearls. Don't take this the wrong way, but it's easier for me to just ask you tac-witches, who represent biological chips embedded with the Pearls. And you guys give info the Pearls don't. This link for instance. And you guys are cross referenced with the books.

Snipped from the Pearls:
There are four basic levels of readiness for a hyper generator:
(1) Powered Down. This one, I think, is probably fairly self-explanatory.

(2) Routine Readiness. In this stage of readiness, the generator's basic readiness checks have been completed, there's a minimal power load on it, but its capacitors are not fully charged, and various safety interlocks are still closed to prevent… unfortunate accidents.

(3) Stand-By Readiness. In this stage of readiness, the capacitors are fully charged, the interlocks have been disengaged, and the engineer is ready to press the "go" button. However, even after the button is pressed, there is a minimum cycle time while the generator spins its field up to translation capability.

[ David seemed to have trouble counting the day he composed this, so I'll take the liberty of including the fourth readiness state for him:

(4) Sustaining. Running and in hyperspace. -Ed ]

First, it is good to know that when a ship drops out of hyper the generator is dropped back down into Stand-By Readiness, needing as little as 4 minutes to hyper back out. So when Honor's ships were playing peek-a-boo with some Haven systems, I now know what's going on.

Also, it appears that immediately after translating, the generator does NOT have to recharge. It is the time it takes to spin up the field that takes 4 minutes. Even after dropping out of hyper the capacitors remain charged. I thought they were in a state of discharge. Not true it seems.

It also isn't clear what a ship's most used mode is. For instance, when Fearless was moving about the system deploying juryrigged drones in OBS, what would have been the state of the generators. Stage 1 or 2? In other words, is Stage 1, total shutdown ever used other than when orbiting? And it seems during battle stations, bringing up ECM, etc., procedure would be to go automatically to (3) Standby-Readiness.

Does something like this, Pearls, exist for the engines?

"Bring the drive up—now, Lieutenant!" she snapped.

"Aye, aye, Ma'am!" Panowski actually saluted his pickup, then licked his lips. "What are we doing, Captain?" he blurted, and she chopped her hand at him.

"I'll explain later. Have communications raise Dame Estelle. I'll speak to her when I reach the bridge. Now move on that drive, Lieutenant!"

On Basilisk Station

Johan Coglin snorted through his nose as his light-speed sensors reported what had happened twenty-five lightseconds behind him. The speed with which Fearless's decoys and ECM had sprung into action certainly answered the question of whether or not Harrington had suspected Sirius was armed! And they were better than NavInt had projected, he noted. Fleet HQ had been unable to provide him with solid data on Manticoran system capabilities, and it seemed their estimates had been low.

This seems a little odd. The time it would take for the differences in tech of navies certainly would affect bringing up the decoys and ECM, without previous warning. However, Coglin admits that it is obvious that Honor, therefore Fearless, was ready. So the only thing that had to be done was to throw a switch or push a button. So I don't rightly understand Coglin's sentiment. The difference in time of even several different navies activating decoys and ECM from a ready state should have been negligible. It seems.

The only bottleneck I can see is the time the Captain would give the order and it relayed and carried out. Which even that should be inconsequential, especially for a premier navy with a rep like the RMN. And one thing textev supplies us with, is the positive/professional rep the RMN enjoys in the Haven sector.

cthia wrote:On Basilisk Station

Johan Coglin snorted through his nose as his light-speed sensors reported what had happened twenty-five lightseconds behind him. The speed with which Fearless's decoys and ECM had sprung into action certainly answered the question of whether or not Harrington had suspected Sirius was armed! And they were better than NavInt had projected, he noted. Fleet HQ had been unable to provide him with solid data on Manticoran system capabilities, and it seemed their estimates had been low.

This seems a little odd. The time it would take for the differences in tech of navies certainly would affect bringing up the decoys and ECM, without previous warning. However, Coglin admits that it is obvious that Honor, therefore Fearless, was ready. So the only thing that had to be done was to throw a switch or push a button. So I don't rightly understand Coglin's sentiment. The difference in time of even several different navies activating decoys and ECM from a ready state should have been negligible. It seems.
.
The only bottleneck I can see is the time the Captain would give the order and it relayed and carried out. Which even that should be inconsequential, especially for a premier navy with a rep like the RMN. And one thing textev supplies us with, is the positive/professional rep the RMN enjoys in the Haven sector.

Maybe the difference between this is a drill and this is not a drill

cthia wrote:I appreciate reading the Pearls, but there is so much info there that finding what you want, when you want it, is an oftentimes daunting task. I can't even find this info from your link within the main site of the Pearls. Don't take this the wrong way, but it's easier for me to just ask you tac-witches, who represent biological chips embedded with the Pearls. And you guys give info the Pearls don't. This link for instance. And you guys are cross referenced with the books.

It would probably be a good idea to pay a little more attention to the Pearls. The Pearls and the FAQ here are generally considered primary resources--the first place you should look for definitive answers. Especially for someone as inquisitive as you, I think it is well worth your while to actually read through all of the Pearls, just to see what's in there. You won't absorb it all on your first pass. But you might wonder about something and realize, "didn't I see something about that in the Pearls?" And you will probably be in a better position to find it. At the very least, you will find a huge number of questions that have been nagging the back of your head answered before you realize you have a question.

cthia wrote:On Basilisk Station

Johan Coglin snorted through his nose as his light-speed sensors reported what had happened twenty-five lightseconds behind him. The speed with which Fearless's decoys and ECM had sprung into action certainly answered the question of whether or not Harrington had suspected Sirius was armed! And they were better than NavInt had projected, he noted. Fleet HQ had been unable to provide him with solid data on Manticoran system capabilities, and it seemed their estimates had been low.

This seems a little odd. The time it would take for the differences in tech of navies certainly would affect bringing up the decoys and ECM, without previous warning. However, Coglin admits that it is obvious that Honor, therefore Fearless, was ready. So the only thing that had to be done was to throw a switch or push a button. So I don't rightly understand Coglin's sentiment. The difference in time of even several different navies activating decoys and ECM from a ready state should have been negligible. It seems.

The only bottleneck I can see is the time the Captain would give the order and it relayed and carried out. Which even that should be inconsequential, especially for a premier navy with a rep like the RMN. And one thing textev supplies us with, is the positive/professional rep the RMN enjoys in the Haven sector.

I think you're missing the point. The point is that someone was ready to push the button or throw the switch.

Coglin was thinking that this proved Harrington suspected the Sirius was armed. If Harrington did not suspect Sirius was armed, no one would have been ready to push that button to activate ECM. The fact that ECM was activated promptly proved that the Fearless was at combat stations and expecting attack.

Coglin wasn't comparing the speed of Fearless to the speed of any other ship. Coglin had been wondering whether Harrington suspected the Sirius was a Q-ship; Coglin got his answer when the Fearless launched ECM immediately.

Bolding for specific emphasis:

cthia wrote:On Basilisk Station

Johan Coglin snorted through his nose as his light-speed sensors reported what had happened twenty-five lightseconds behind him. The speed with which Fearless's decoys and ECM had sprung into action certainly answered the question of whether or not Harrington had suspected Sirius was armed! And they were better than NavInt had projected, he noted. Fleet HQ had been unable to provide him with solid data on Manticoran system capabilities, and it seemed their estimates had been low.

This seems a little odd. The time it would take for the differences in tech of navies certainly would affect bringing up the decoys and ECM, without previous warning. However, Coglin admits that it is obvious that Honor, therefore Fearless, was ready. So the only thing that had to be done was to throw a switch or push a button. So I don't rightly understand Coglin's sentiment. The difference in time of even several different navies activating decoys and ECM from a ready state should have been negligible. It seems.

He's not surprised by the speed, at least under the assumption that Fearless and Harrington had suspected Sirius was armed. He's surprised - if at all, it's just something he's noting, really - not about the speed of decoys and ECM but the quality of them. So he's got the preparedness question answered by the speed, and he's got his official briefing about the Manties' ECM corrected by personal witness now. Two questions answered at once, not one combined puzzler. [Largely covered by SWM already, it seems - posting anyway because the overlap isn't quite total.]

cthia wrote:So the ~ 5 minutes of my own original estimate isn't so far off? To make sure I understand, from the discussion it seems that the maximum amount of time 'for a desperately running ship' to hyper out of danger could be as high as 10 minutes give or take? And that doesn't include having to reverse engines and getting back to the hyper point. This sounds like a huge window of vulnerability far beyond what I imagined.

When Genevieve Chin ordered the fleet to hyper out when she finally realized that the newcomer was the Salamander sounded like it was just a matter of hitting reverse and getting the hell out. In fact, IIRC, storyline made it sound like it took her far more time for the epiphany of the Salamander having joined the battle to hit her, than it would have taken to translate back out had the order gone out in time. That was a bit confusing.

Unless, ships that have just translated in can almost immediately translate back out since everything is in place and ready? But Chin's ships had been in-system for awhile.

kzt wrote:You know, if you read the background material that David provides the Honorverse would be easier to understands.
http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... gton/117/0

cthia wrote:This stuff is cool kzt. Thanks abunch. And you are right, it explains much. For instance, tonnage does matter regarding cycle time - which was one of my questions. Now I know what Chin was up against.

I appreciate reading the Pearls, but there is so much info there that finding what you want, when you want it, is an oftentimes daunting task. I can't even find this info from your link within the main site of the Pearls. Don't take this the wrong way, but it's easier for me to just ask you tac-witches, who represent biological chips embedded with the Pearls. And you guys give info the Pearls don't. This link for instance. And you guys are cross referenced with the books.

Snipped from the Pearls:
There are four basic levels of readiness for a hyper generator:
(1) Powered Down. This one, I think, is probably fairly self-explanatory.

(2) Routine Readiness. In this stage of readiness, the generator's basic readiness checks have been completed, there's a minimal power load on it, but its capacitors are not fully charged, and various safety interlocks are still closed to prevent… unfortunate accidents.

(3) Stand-By Readiness. In this stage of readiness, the capacitors are fully charged, the interlocks have been disengaged, and the engineer is ready to press the "go" button. However, even after the button is pressed, there is a minimum cycle time while the generator spins its field up to translation capability.

[ David seemed to have trouble counting the day he composed this, so I'll take the liberty of including the fourth readiness state for him:

(4) Sustaining. Running and in hyperspace. -Ed ]

First, it is good to know that when a ship drops out of hyper the generator is dropped back down into Stand-By Readiness, needing as little as 4 minutes to hyper back out. So when Honor's ships were playing peek-a-boo with some Haven systems, I now know what's going on.

Also, it appears that immediately after translating, the generator does NOT have to recharge. It is the time it takes to spin up the field that takes 4 minutes. Even after dropping out of hyper the capacitors remain charged. I thought they were in a state of discharge. Not true it seems.

It also isn't clear what a ship's most used mode is. For instance, when Fearless was moving about the system deploying juryrigged drones in OBS, what would have been the state of the generators. Stage 1 or 2? In other words, is Stage 1, total shutdown ever used other than when orbiting? And it seems during battle stations, bringing up ECM, etc., procedure would be to go automatically to (3) Standby-Readiness.

Does something like this, Pearls, exist for the engines?

"Bring the drive up—now, Lieutenant!" she snapped.

"Aye, aye, Ma'am!" Panowski actually saluted his pickup, then licked his lips. "What are we doing, Captain?" he blurted, and she chopped her hand at him.

"I'll explain later. Have communications raise Dame Estelle. I'll speak to her when I reach the bridge. Now move on that drive, Lieutenant!"

There is more in a separate Pearl as to what Admiral Chin really was up against (or thought she was up against) as opposed to what we thought she was up against.

In editing At All Costs, David made an error that dropped one and a half of critical sentences (which created a lot of (highly energetic) posts centered around why she waited to hyper out immediately--a lot of people here thought she should have hyper out as soon as she picked up Honor's missile storm headed her way). The missing sentence and a half explain why she didn't do so immediately.

Admirals Chin and Kusak and the climax to the Battle of Manticore, part II

As far as your other questions:

If a ship is inside the hyper limit and is not planning to translate to hyper-space, the hyper generator is most probably powered down.

For the impellers, it depends on the ship (military or civilian), what it is doing or planning to do. Reread the chapter in On Basilisk Station where Fearless finds out Sirius' nodes are hot.

Stages of impeller nodes:
1) Cold, shutdown
2) Hot, standby
3) Running, wedge up, further divided into:
3a) Maintenance level wedge (the minimum power level the wedge can be up)
3b) Running, intermediate power wedge--under acceleration. Any acceleration level between 3a and 3c
3c) Running, full power wedge--maximum acceleration (100% inertial compensator load)
3d) Running, impeller nodes past red line. See the story Ms. Midshipman Harrington in the Changer of Worlds anthology for an example.

cthia wrote:Also, it appears that immediately after translating, the generator does NOT have to recharge. It is the time it takes to spin up the field that takes 4 minutes. Even after dropping out of hyper the capacitors remain charged. I thought they were in a state of discharge. Not true it seems.

That is not correct. It takes a superdreadnought 20 minutes or so to recharge, IIRC. That comes from the text. David didn't mention the recharge time in this post; he was only answering a question about how long it takes to go from cold start to translation.

It also isn't clear what a ship's most used mode is. For instance, when Fearless was moving about the system deploying juryrigged drones in OBS, what would have been the state of the generators. Stage 1 or 2? In other words, is Stage 1, total shutdown ever used other than when orbiting? And it seems during battle stations, bringing up ECM, etc., procedure would be to go automatically to (3) Standby-Readiness.

It seems likely that "Routine Readiness" is the standard mode for a ship moving around. That's why it is called "Routine Readiness". I imagine "Powered Down" is when a ship is docked or undergoing repairs.

I don't think a ship would go to "Standby Readiness" in battle unless the ship was already outside the hyper limit or could be soon. There is no point in putting stress on the hyper generator if you are far from the hyper limit and not intending to go in that direction.

SWM wrote:

cthia wrote:I appreciate reading the Pearls, but there is so much info there that finding what you want, when you want it, is an oftentimes daunting task. I can't even find this info from your link within the main site of the Pearls. Don't take this the wrong way, but it's easier for me to just ask you tac-witches, who represent biological chips embedded with the Pearls. And you guys give info the Pearls don't. This link for instance. And you guys are cross referenced with the books.

It would probably be a good idea to pay a little more attention to the Pearls. The Pearls and the FAQ here are generally considered primary resources--the first place you should look for definitive answers. Especially for someone as inquisitive as you, I think it is well worth your while to actually read through all of the Pearls, just to see what's in there. You won't absorb it all on your first pass. But you might wonder about something and realize, "didn't I see something about that in the Pearls?" And you will probably be in a better position to find it. At the very least, you will find a huge number of questions that have been nagging the back of your head answered before you realize you have a question.

That's for damn sure. In fact, since kzt posted it, I've been cramming. I have had lengthy reads before on several occasions, but much of the Pearls represent such dense technical info. Which is good, but until you actually have a question, which for me originates from a passage in a book, I can no longer find what I read or know is there. A huge help now, is that the search facility is working. I just tried it mere minutes ago trying to locate kzt's link. I found it. When I first discovered the Pearls many many months ago, the search function wasn't working for me. It would give me jumbled text. That persisted for several weeks, so I abandoned the Pearls because it didn't have any practical value other than leisure reading. What is leisure time, by the way? Anyone seen any of it laying around lately? I'm in my lab at home working now.