The Two General's Problem

tlb wrote:Given the author's reluctance to make computers of any kind more important in these stories, it seems unlikely that he will introduce quantum communication by means of quantum computers.

penny wrote:Are you sure it is reluctance? Or is he saving that bottle of wine until its time?

I see the entire question about computers as it applies to the MAN differently. The Alignment is comprised of Alphas. Actually, it would seem illogical to me if the author did not allow a race of Alphas to develop a superior computer to go along with their advanced reasoning. Perhaps quantum algorithms are what the entire "Plan" has been based on for centuries. I would certainly like to take a peek at Anisimovna's computer. If I could be sure I'd survive the key clicks.

Anyway, it would seem odd to me if a superior intellect fails to develop a superior computer. It just goes together.

He has been reluctant so far, whether that will hold in the next books remans to be seen.

Your high opinion about Alpha capabilities has yet to be be borne out in the stories, with perhaps three exceptions: the streak drive, the spider drive and maybe the genetic nanotech (but Beowulf could have done that also, if it weren't prohibited). However there is really no sign that that their intellect is any greater than the smartest people outside the Onion. You could say that some of those outside people were lost Alphas, but the Harringtons have been lost for hundreds of years; if progress were being made then those lost Alphas should have been left in the dust ages ago.

Certainly the Plan turned out to be trash, even more than the one in the Foundation and Empire series, which was subverted by a single mutated superior individual. The Malign Plan lost out because the leaders of Manticore saw the danger posed by Haven and planned for it. Note that there could be other points that lead to failure, but this is the primary one.

PS: Also doesn't the improved compensator, the baffle that allows a missile to have multiple drives and FTL communication indicate that the Malign were not the sole people capable of innovation?

ThinksMarkedly wrote:We can't speak for the Honorverse on this. Only RFC can and he has not discussed anything quantum in it, except for the quantum baffles and the effect that the impellers have on the materials around it. So there is a possibility that he could come up with a new quantum process to give one side or another some advantage. I don't think he will. David has been very good at developing technologies steadily and has not invented a second FTL mechanism for any of his universes (unlike, say, David Brin who came up with 6 different FTL ways for the Uplift Saga, or in Star Trek, with warp drives, wormholes, quantum slipstream, subspace corridors, etc.).

(emphasis added)

penny wrote:How do you know quantum communication isn't what the author planned all along?

I don't know for sure, but the reason I gave that answer is in the text you quoted and I highlighted now: David is good at introducing technologies slowly, steadily, and gives hints about them. It's possible he has and it's not obvious to us now but will be in hindsight later. But I don't think so.

The one big departure so far is the spider drive itself. It does build upon other established technologies (the tractor itself and the alpha wall) but there was no hint anywhere that it was coming.

And the MAlign is so far two for two on brute force. There's no hint that putting more force/energy/power onto quantum will lead to any communication, let alone FTL one.

penny wrote:I see the entire question about computers as it applies to the MAN differently. The Alignment is comprised of Alphas. Actually, it would seem illogical to me if the author did not allow a race of Alphas to develop a superior computer to go along with their advanced reasoning.

Why would their on-average-superior intellect make them more prone to developing one particular technology though not another? As I've just posted above, their breakthroughs anywhere except biological sciences have been entirely borne out of brute force. Their new missiles were not new developments, they are copies of what the GA has. They didn't see those developments coming any more than Haven or the League did (I'd argue that the Andermani did see it coming through espionage, but remained quiet about it).

I don't think the logic follows for this. It may happen, but it doesn't seem fated to happen.

What's more, the Alphas are all full of failings and blind spots. This could be one of them: "we are plenty smart so we don't need smarter computers."

Anyway, it would seem odd to me if a superior intellect fails to develop a superior computer. It just goes together. Like corned beef and cabbage.

I fail to see why anyone would put cabbage on anything.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

ThinksMarkedly wrote:We can't speak for the Honorverse on this. Only RFC can and he has not discussed anything quantum in it, except for the quantum baffles and the effect that the impellers have on the materials around it. So there is a possibility that he could come up with a new quantum process to give one side or another some advantage. I don't think he will. David has been very good at developing technologies steadily and has not invented a second FTL mechanism for any of his universes (unlike, say, David Brin who came up with 6 different FTL ways for the Uplift Saga, or in Star Trek, with warp drives, wormholes, quantum slipstream, subspace corridors, etc.).

(emphasis added)

penny wrote:How do you know quantum communication isn't what the author planned all along?

I don't know for sure, but the reason I gave that answer is in the text you quoted and I highlighted now: David is good at introducing technologies slowly, steadily, and gives hints about them. It's possible he has and it's not obvious to us now but will be in hindsight later. But I don't think so.

The one big departure so far is the spider drive itself. It does build upon other established technologies (the tractor itself and the alpha wall) but there was no hint anywhere that it was coming.

And the MAlign is so far two for two on brute force. There's no hint that putting more force/energy/power onto quantum will lead to any communication, let alone FTL one.

I’ve heard that before. I don’t think it is appropriate to utilize that meter stick, here. Perhaps the author has been steadily developing tech for the GA, and all of its members separately at one time. I don’t think we can fully claim enough data points for the MAN, who is a relatively new enemy. We simply have not been given enough information on the Malign tech that we DO know about; let alone to discern some sort of pattern of progression.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

penny wrote:I see the entire question about computers as it applies to the MAN differently. The Alignment is comprised of Alphas. Actually, it would seem illogical to me if the author did not allow a race of Alphas to develop a superior computer to go along with their advanced reasoning.

Why would their on-average-superior intellect make them more prone to developing one particular technology though not another? As I've just posted above, their breakthroughs anywhere except biological sciences have been entirely borne out of brute force. Their new missiles were not new developments, they are copies of what the GA has. They didn't see those developments coming any more than Haven or the League did (I'd argue that the Andermani did see it coming through espionage, but remained quiet about it).

I don't think the logic follows for this. It may happen, but it doesn't seem fated to happen.

What's more, the Alphas are all full of failings and blind spots. This could be one of them: "we are plenty smart so we don't need smarter computers."

Anyway, it would seem odd to me if a superior intellect fails to develop a superior computer. It just goes together. Like corned beef and cabbage.

I fail to see why anyone would put cabbage on anything.

How do I put this.

Unlike most of you, I do not belittle Malign genetic research. I have no doubt that they are successful at breeding true Alpha intelligences that are very far above the norm. And I am certainly not going to make the mistake of missing an irrefutable data point in Honor Harrington.

It doesn’t matter that she is only one data point. Oh what a data point she is. She counts as 25 votes anyway. Out of all of the characters revealed thus far, Honor is more intelligent than any of them. So, spare me the song and dance about the “alleged ability” of Alphas.

Having said that, I fully expect the thought pattern of an Alpha’s brain waves to be far above the norm. Tactically during the heat of battle, I fully expect Honor’s thought patterns to be off the scale, normally. It is said that a Savant’s brain operates on a higher level of reasoning. My own higher reasoning assess that fact as naturally needing better tools for reasoning. Like, naturally, superior computers. If there are quantum algorithms that exist (if you’re an existentialist), and since they cannot be run by normal computers, and since they are superior algorithms, then it seems intuitive that these advanced thinkers would need advanced tools in which to execute the programs that they conceive.

Again, necessity is the mother of invention.

About computers in the HV
I don’t think computers in the HV are less capable than today’s computers. Some of you might think so. I do not. There is no way our computers today can handle the threat level in the HV. Nope.

What I have always thought is that the HV has concentrated on solving the density, heat and bottleneck problem of today’s computing technology. I have always thought that molycircs solve the density of transistors on a chip problem while simultaneously eliminating the data bottleneck and possibly the thermal problem which lead to the development of much faster CPUs with less heat.

penny wrote:I’ve heard that before. I don’t think it is appropriate to utilize that meter stick, here. Perhaps the author has been steadily developing tech for the GA, and all of its members separately at one time. I don’t think we can fully claim enough data points for the MAN, who is a relatively new enemy. We simply have not been given enough information on the Malign tech that we DO know about; let alone to discern some sort of pattern of progression.

There are fourteen Honor Harrington books, four Sagami Island books and three Torch books for a total of twenty-one. The Detweilers were introduced in the fourteenth book (At All Costs) and the Mesan Alignment was introduced in the fifteenth book (Storm from the Shadows). There were descriptions of it before the Grand Alliance came into existence. It was an enemy of Manticore before things went bad with the Solarian League. In what way is it a "relatively new enemy"?

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:I’ve heard that before. I don’t think it is appropriate to utilize that meter stick, here. Perhaps the author has been steadily developing tech for the GA, and all of its members separately at one time. I don’t think we can fully claim enough data points for the MAN, who is a relatively new enemy. We simply have not been given enough information on the Malign tech that we DO know about; let alone to discern some sort of pattern of progression.

There are fourteen Honor Harrington books, four Sagami Island books and three Torch books for a total of twenty-one. The Detweilers were introduced in the fourteenth book (At All Costs) and the Mesan Alignment was introduced in the fifteenth book (Storm from the Shadows). There were descriptions of it before the Grand Alliance came into existence. It was an enemy of Manticore before things went bad with the Solarian League. In what way is it a "relatively new enemy"?

Are you saying they didn't get introduced until over 2/3 of the way in the series??? And you don't count that as relatively new? Besides, the Mesan Alignment was introduced first, and not the MAN. I used to argue with a couple posters about whether or not the Alignment even had a navy. They didn't think the Alignment had a navy. I pointed out that with all of their lordly ambitions, at some point they were going to need to put their missiles where their mouth is.

Anyway, what do we know about their tech? Actually, not a damn thing.

penny wrote:Having said that, I fully expect the thought pattern of an Alpha’s brain waves to be far above the norm. Tactically during the heat of battle, I fully expect Honor’s thought patterns to be off the scale, normally. It is said that a Savant’s brain operates on a higher level of reasoning. My own higher reasoning assess that fact as naturally needing better tools for reasoning. Like, naturally, superior computers. If there are quantum algorithms that exist (if you’re an existentialist), and since they cannot be run by normal computers, and since they are superior algorithms, then it seems intuitive that these advanced thinkers would need advanced tools in which to execute the programs that they conceive.

Again, necessity is the mother of invention.

About computers in the HV
I don’t think computers in the HV are less capable than today’s computers. Some of you might think so. I do not. There is no way our computers today can handle the threat level in the HV. Nope.

What I have always thought is that the HV has concentrated on solving the density, heat and bottleneck problem of today’s computing technology. I have always thought that molycircs solve the density of transistors on a chip problem while simultaneously eliminating the data bottleneck and possibly the thermal problem which lead to the development of much faster CPUs with less heat.

I agree that the computers in the Honorverse are far better than what we have. I also agree that molycicrcs have the benefits that you state. But it is also the case that the author has always been very lowkey about these advantages in his stories, because it was my understanding that he wanted the stories to be about people and not computers.

I view Honor somewhat differently than you, because the Harrington line was "lost" more than four hundred years previously. So if Honor is still equivalent to the best that the Onion has, then there has been NO real progress in developing intellect in those years. There is NO sign that the current Alphas are savants and the only case mentioned of where they tried to develop one has failed miserably: Francesca Simões.

penny wrote:I’ve heard that before. I don’t think it is appropriate to utilize that meter stick, here. Perhaps the author has been steadily developing tech for the GA, and all of its members separately at one time. I don’t think we can fully claim enough data points for the MAN, who is a relatively new enemy. We simply have not been given enough information on the Malign tech that we DO know about; let alone to discern some sort of pattern of progression.

tlb wrote:There are fourteen Honor Harrington books, four Sagami Island books and three Torch books for a total of twenty-one. The Detweilers were introduced in the fourteenth book (At All Costs) and the Mesan Alignment was introduced in the fifteenth book (Storm from the Shadows). There were descriptions of it before the Grand Alliance came into existence. It was an enemy of Manticore before things went bad with the Solarian League. In what way is it a "relatively new enemy"?

penny wrote:Are you saying they didn't get introduced until over 2/3 of the way in the series??? And you don't count that as relatively new? Besides, the Mesan Alignment was introduced first, and not the MAN. I used to argue with a couple posters about whether or not the Alignment even had a navy. They didn't think the Alignment had a navy. I pointed out that with all of their lordly ambitions, at some point they were going to need to put their missiles where their mouth is.

Anyway, what do we know about their tech? Actually, not a damn thing.

No, Storm from the Shadows also introduced the spider-drive and the various classes if spider-drive ships. So whatever argument you may have had occurred after AAC and before SftS. Since the first books were all concentrating on the conflict with Haven, we can agree that they are newer than that; however we still learn of them before they maneuvered the Solarian League into the fight. To say that we do not know anything about their technology is nonsense; we know about the spider drive, the streak drive, the three second graser and the genetic nano-tech. The only thing held back in the fight at Galton was the spider drive.

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:Having said that, I fully expect the thought pattern of an Alpha’s brain waves to be far above the norm. Tactically during the heat of battle, I fully expect Honor’s thought patterns to be off the scale, normally. It is said that a Savant’s brain operates on a higher level of reasoning. My own higher reasoning assess that fact as naturally needing better tools for reasoning. Like, naturally, superior computers. If there are quantum algorithms that exist (if you’re an existentialist), and since they cannot be run by normal computers, and since they are superior algorithms, then it seems intuitive that these advanced thinkers would need advanced tools in which to execute the programs that they conceive.

Again, necessity is the mother of invention.

About computers in the HV
I don’t think computers in the HV are less capable than today’s computers. Some of you might think so. I do not. There is no way our computers today can handle the threat level in the HV. Nope.

What I have always thought is that the HV has concentrated on solving the density, heat and bottleneck problem of today’s computing technology. I have always thought that molycircs solve the density of transistors on a chip problem while simultaneously eliminating the data bottleneck and possibly the thermal problem which lead to the development of much faster CPUs with less heat.

I agree that the computers in the Honorverse are far better than what we have. I also agree that molycicrcs have the benefits that you state. But it is also the case that the author has always been very lowkey about these advantages in his stories, because it was my understanding that he wanted the stories to be about people and not computers.

I view Honor somewhat differently than you, because the Harrington line was "lost" more than four hundred years previously. So if Honor is still equivalent to the best that the Onion has, then there has been NO real progress in developing intellect in those years. There is NO sign that the current Alphas are savants and the only case mentioned of where they tried to develop one has failed miserably: Francesca Simões.

First off, we do not know that Honor is the equivalent to the best the Alignment has to offer.

What makes you think they need Alphas who are more intelligent than Honor? She already has no equal in the GA.

We’ve had this discussion before as well. It is illogical to keep harping on there being a lack of progress in the Alpha line as far as intelligence since Honor. There is only so much tinkering one can do to a limited brain and Honor is probably the limit before unwanted side effects take over.

It is also unfair/untrue that there have been no improvements since Honor. How do you know that? The Malign already stated that the improvements they are working on has to do with “accessories” and not intelligence.

Accessories, like, and I’m just guessing to use as an example, hardening against radiation exposure. Natural resistance to the elements, etc .