Honor & Nimitz & Pavel Young

robert132 wrote:

cthia wrote:Would Honor have been charged with murder if she'd killed Young under the same circumstances -- no penetration?

At any rate, OTOH it seems things would have turned out much better for her if she had.

OTOH, might she have gone down for murder if she had delivered a fatal blow?

If Young had been successful in penetrating her, would that have been cause and clearance to kill? Certainly a temporary insanity plea available if need be.

The Honorverse and all of its peculiarities introduces something that has a much more probability than ever. That a rapist can be killed without benefit of a firearm or weapon. Yet in the Honorverse those bare hands can be considered undue force for more than one reason.

Certainly it can happen on present day Earth as well, that some idiot rapist is so unlucky that he unwittingly targets an accomplished martial arts expert and is killed. If Honor would have been crazy enough to volunteer knowledge of those last few unnecessary blows would she have gone down for it?

Are the ROE... "In case of penetration... you are cleared to kill?"

I look at it like this, rape is a crime of violence as is ATTEMPTED RAPE. Violence in the cause of self defense is a no brainer. Today if the potential victim of a rape had a firearm at hand and used it to stop the attacker and the attacker died in most jurisdictions (except in some uber-liberal bastions) that would be considered justifiable homicide.

If Honor had delivered a fatal blow, breaking Pavel's neck for instance or driving nasal bone fragments into his brain I think the location of the act (shower), time of day (evening,) and other pertinent facts would probably lead the investigating Master at Arms and investigating officer to conclude this death was as a result of self defense.

I would be concerned about how this death, probably the first at her hands, would affect her and damage her psyche even after a court of inquiry exonerated her. Death witnessed close up and personal, especially death delivered by one's own hand is extremely traumatic, the first one especially so.

The trauma might even cause her to re-think a military / naval career.

Lost count on how many of them have suffered the RSOD (Red Screen of Death) Topic Over! fate.

Not so funny how I seem to have seen that fate more often than I've seen Miscrosoft's BSOD (Blue Screen of Death!)

'sigh'.

My threads seem to be tasty to the Duckk, or unpalatable. I suppose Duckks don't enjoy being taken too close to the edge of the "Can we talk, Joan River's?," pond.

And oftentimes I immeasurably end up governing how far and fast I can drive adults in a conversation. Which is limiting. And sad.

Another 'sigh.'

AST NISHMENT,

cthia wrote:Can't argue with any of your points and I have to agree. And I smile at your extraordinary insight. A smile not simply because we agree, Tester knows everyone knows that I don't mind being on the lone side of the fence for sake of conversation and or truth, at the possible expense of another of my threads being unceremoniously "beaked" by the Duckk.

Lost count on how many of them have suffered the RSOD (Red Screen of Death) Topic Over! fate.

Not so funny how I seem to have seen that fate more often than I've seen Miscrosoft's BSOD (Blue Screen of Death!)

'sigh'.

My threads seem to be tasty to the Duckk, or unpalatable. I suppose Duckks don't enjoy being taken too close to the edge of the "Can we talk, Joan River's?," pond.

And oftentimes I immeasurably end up governing how far and fast I can drive adults in a conversation. Which is limiting. And sad.

Another 'sigh.'

But because your thought emphasizes and reflects my sentiment in a post in the "Ramblings" thread where I shared acquired information regarding the vetting process taking on a psychological turn because of certain circumstances. I would imagine that with Honor taking her first life -- even if with a weapon like a pulsar, but certainly if using her bare hands -- would surely offer cause for her to be checked (vetted) for psychological damage.

My reservation, or uncertainty rather, is in factoring in the intuitive and possible legal differences between our present day society and that of the Honorverse. And leaving room for any needed leeway caused by any unassuming truths. E.g., I didn't want to overlook the possibility that the laws may be a bit different in the Honorverse -- a difference that reflects the existence of enhanced humans. There is a thing even in our own society called undue force.

Here on Earth in the present, self defense is not a legal defense if there is no actual danger. The law says that you are allowed to protect yourself up to but not including the moment that an attacker is of no more threat to you and you can "escape." You cannot simply kill them just because you can.

I am not saying that I believe that would be the case here.

I'm simply bringing it to the discussion that in the Honorverse the laws may be a bit different. Where adult humans like San Martinos are built like mountains and their young are built like tanks and bringing up the rear are Sphinxians who can eat a stack of fifty pancakes before, during and after kicking your ass.

After all, an adult female from San Martin who is also proficient at hand to hand combat relying on a "legal defense of murder" that she "felt threatened" from a Pavel Young may evoke more than a bit of AST NISHED rustling in the seats of the jurors.

I'm just saying.

Little wonder that I don't recall textev supporting any of the traditional Terran contact sports. Heck, just hugging a San Martino would be a contact sport!

What about normal kids or adults simply playing around? If one friend hails from San Martin and the other from Manticore, how do the dynamics fair between the two? Most of us have experienced friends that like it physical. Now imagine you're a normal Terran and that friend is a San Martino. Can a normal human handle rough-housing with kids from San Martino? Would San Martinos be allowed to play NFL football or hockey with Terrans?

Remember the Refrigerator Perry? "The Fridge!"

I imagine San Martinos would have football players called Forklift Fred. He grabs ya, you're going for a ride. If a play results in a San Martino linebacker hitting a quarterback, that quarterback better, at the very least, be from a heavy world too or that very first hit would result in a "He's out, call in the stretcher."

"Out for the game, doc?"

"He's out for the season!"

"It's the first play of the first game?!"... Doc?!?"

robert132 wrote:
Obviously Pavel didn't pay attention in the classes which discussed Sun Tzu's teachings. He ignored the rule that says "Know your enemy (or target.) Learn all you can about him (her.)" If he had he would either -

a) have come at the problem (Honor) differently, or
b) said "screw it, it ain't worth the danger of busted bones and rearranged teeth to moi."

Fox2! wrote:

robert132 wrote:
Obviously Pavel didn't pay attention in the classes which discussed Sun Tzu's teachings. He ignored the rule that says "Know your enemy (or target.) Learn all you can about him (her.)" If he had he would either -

a) have come at the problem (Honor) differently, or
b) said "screw it, it ain't worth the danger of busted bones and rearranged teeth to moi."

Very poor "Intelligence Preparation of the Battlespace"

-Heavy worlder
"Genie" modified for that, and similar, heavy world environment
-Unarmed combat demonstration team trained under Saganami Marines

Of course she's going to throw his over-bred body around the shower like a 'cat going through a rabbit den. Plus she's naked and has short hair, so there's nothing for him to catch hold of. Even if he does manage to grab something, she's wet and soapy, so she's going to slide right out of his grasp.

Of course, he did the same thing what, thirty years later, along with the late unlamented Denver Sumervale, in not realizing that she had spent the entire time returning to Manticore from Grayson in the ship's range, probably using up an entire year's allotment of 10 mm. Never mind Uncle Jacque and his friends from SCA.

saber964 wrote:IIRC Pavel did do some basic intell gathering, just not enough. He found out about her late night gym sessions and had someone drug Nimitz. But the really important stuff like the fact that she was a heavy worlder and on the unarmed combat team not a clue.

Weird Harold wrote:

saber964 wrote:IIRC Pavel did do some basic intell gathering, just not enough. He found out about her late night gym sessions and had someone drug Nimitz. But the really important stuff like the fact that she was a heavy worlder and on the unarmed combat team not a clue.

He knew she was on the unarmed combat team, but...

He dismissed her abilities and class ranking as being "the teacher's pet."

He disregarded unarmed combat as a fancy form of exercise; he didn't consider unarmed combat as having any real purpose.

Most of his lack of good Intel on Honor was the result of a lack of personal intelligence and an overabundance of arrogance.

Weird Harold wrote:

saber964 wrote:IIRC Pavel did do some basic intell gathering, just not enough. He found out about her late night gym sessions and had someone drug Nimitz. But the really important stuff like the fact that she was a heavy worlder and on the unarmed combat team not a clue.

He knew she was on the unarmed combat team, but...

He dismissed her abilities and class ranking as being "the teacher's pet."

He disregarded unarmed combat as a fancy form of exercise; he didn't consider unarmed combat as having any real purpose.

Most of his lack of good Intel on Honor was the result of a lack of personal intelligence and an overabundance of arrogance.

Theemile wrote:Agreed. If anything, his actions showed lack of ability to analyze tactical situations and poor tactical decision making skills.

For-ex : Treecat=Sphinx=High Gravity=Heavy Worlder? That question should come naturally to anyone in the Manticore system with an average IQ.

Fox2! wrote:

robert132 wrote:
Obviously Pavel didn't pay attention in the classes which discussed Sun Tzu's teachings. He ignored the rule that says "Know your enemy (or target.) Learn all you can about him (her.)" If he had he would either -

a) have come at the problem (Honor) differently, or
b) said "screw it, it ain't worth the danger of busted bones and rearranged teeth to moi."

Very poor "Intelligence Preparation of the Battlespace"

-Heavy worlder
"Genie" modified for that, and similar, heavy world environment
-Unarmed combat demonstration team trained under Saganami Marines

Of course she's going to throw his over-bred body around the shower like a 'cat going through a rabbit den. Plus she's naked and has short hair, so there's nothing for him to catch hold of. Even if he does manage to grab something, she's wet and soapy, so she's going to slide right out of his grasp.

Of course, he did the same thing what, thirty years later, along with the late unlamented Denver Sumervale, in not realizing that she had spent the entire time returning to Manticore from Grayson in the ship's range, probably using up an entire year's allotment of 10 mm. Never mind Uncle Jacque and his friends from SCA.

The truth about rape and sexual assault is ugly – and many women know this

Another week, another misogynistic comment by a high-profile man. During an interview with a national newspaper, Lord (John) Prescott raised a decade-old accusation that he had assaulted Linda McDougall by pushing her against a wall, saying that she was “built like a bloody barn door” and that the “fucking house would have fallen down” if he had done so. There you have it. Had McDougall been considered attractive by Prescott, perhaps he might have proudly owned up to such atrocious behaviour? Not on your life – men use all kinds of justifications for sexual assault on women, ranging from “she asked for it” to “I was doing her a favour” (the implication being that no other man would want her).

Prescott, who vehemently denies the allegation, is far from the only public figure who has dared to make such remarks. Earlier this year a senior Liberal Democrat council member, Philip Drury, resigned after posting on Facebook remarks insinuating that a 21-year-old female student was too ugly to be raped. Drury’s outburst followed the woman’s claims that she had been sexually assaulted in Italy, but police there believe she made the attack up. Drury wrote: “Not sure anyone would even want to think about it looking at her lol.”

Last December, according to a report of an interview with a newspaper called Zero Hora, a Brazilian congressman, Jair Bolsonaro, said of a political opponent, Maria do Rosário Nunes, that he would not rape her “because she is not worth it, because she’s ugly, she’s not my type. I would never rape her.”

The remarks followed an accusation by Bolsonaro that Do Rosário had previously called him a rapist, which she denies, and after her speech in which she condemned human rights violations committed during the US-backed military dictatorship.

Reacting to the Dominique Strauss-Kahn case, internet users questioned whether he would have raped his accuser because of how “ugly” she is and the French media rated her attractiveness. Of all the myths about rape, one of the most damaging is that men do it because they are overcome with lust for a super-model type of woman whom they cannot resist.

But rape happens to babies, elderly women and everyone in between. And yet we routinely conflate rape and sexual assault with conventional attractiveness – and perpetuate the notion that “ugly” women don’t get raped, and that attractive men don’t need to commit rape.

I recall an incident a few years ago. I had just been on TV talking about the disgraceful number of convictions for rape in Britain. On my way home I stopped off at the bank and was immediately asked, quite confrontationally, if I was “that women just on the telly about rape”. I confirmed I was, while handing my cheque to the cashier. “You should shut your mouth,” the man continued. “What’s it got to do with you? You’re too ugly to rape.” The cashier looked shocked, saw how upset I was, and reassured me by saying: “Don’t listen to him – of course you are not!”

More recently I was in a pub with a female friend one evening, engaged in conversation, when we noticed a man hovering next to us. “What are two beautiful ladies doing on your own?” he leered, preparing to pull up a chair. When we helpfully pointed out we were actually together, ergo not alone, we quickly became “slags” followed by “lesbians”. As we left the pub we heard the charmer shout: “Fucking ugly dykes, they wouldn’t even get raped.”

is not only vile sexists who hold such views. Some women buy into this too, which is unsurprising bearing in mind the amount of rape-denial propaganda with which we are inundated. When Andrea Dworkin wrote movingly about being raped in Paris a number of prominent feminists, who certainly should have known better, said in private to me that it probably had not happened because Andrea was not the type of women men would find attractive. This is nothing short of internalised woman-hating.

When I, along with many other second-wave feminists, proudly rejected beauty products and other feminine frippery such as high heels, we were judged and vilified by men who took great offence at us not dressing to their requirements. Over the years I have become used to being told by a certain type of man, on a regular basis, that I am “unfuckable” and therefore, unrapeable. I have, however, been raped and sexually assaulted, presumably by men with their eyes closed.

Being told we are too ugly to rape is such a common experience amongst my feminist peers, that the crime writer Val McDermid and I once spent a hilarious evening mocking up a feminist rock band named “2 Ugly 2 Rape.”

And it is not only feminists who come in for such bile. Disabled women and girls are incredibly vulnerable to rape and sexual assault and yet are told they are undesirable and asexual.

Rape is a sadistic act of punishment. We are raped by men who hate us, not by those who desire us so much they have no self- control. They do it to control us and then they tell us we are mad for imagining it happened because we are not good enough for them to violate, abuse and colonise. The truth about rape and sexual assault is ugly.

Fox2! wrote:

robert132 wrote:
Obviously Pavel didn't pay attention in the classes which discussed Sun Tzu's teachings. He ignored the rule that says "Know your enemy (or target.) Learn all you can about him (her.)" If he had he would either -

a) have come at the problem (Honor) differently, or
b) said "screw it, it ain't worth the danger of busted bones and rearranged teeth to moi."

Very poor "Intelligence Preparation of the Battlespace"

-Heavy worlder
"Genie" modified for that, and similar, heavy world environment
-Unarmed combat demonstration team trained under Saganami Marines

Of course she's going to throw his over-bred body around the shower like a 'cat going through a rabbit den. Plus she's naked and has short hair, so there's nothing for him to catch hold of. Even if he does manage to grab something, she's wet and soapy, so she's going to slide right out of his grasp.

Of course, he did the same thing what, thirty years later, along with the late unlamented Denver Sumervale, in not realizing that she had spent the entire time returning to Manticore from Grayson in the ship's range, probably using up an entire year's allotment of 10 mm. Never mind Uncle Jacque and his friends from SCA.