Idle Questions From Reading the Honorverse

stewart wrote:

cthia wrote:Yes! Welcome to the forums!

H GOLLY GEE. Do pardon my manners. Thanks for taking up the slack, Theemile. I think we've finally restocked on virtual Old Tilmans, since the junctions are reopened. If you've taken a liking to liquids filtered from a horse, that is. If not, we can just slip a virtual cocoa on Honor's tab. She'll never catch it amongst all the other real expenditures.

BTW, I don't recall our defectors interacting anywhere in storyline with their old navy, but they must have. Anyone else recall?

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At least the "after action" discussion following Fillereta's demise showed a very cordial interaction between Alfredo and Tom Theisman; Granted they were both on Manticore and in an unofficial setting, but it appears no ill will between these two.

-- Stewart

Uh, you might say that. Alfredo Wu is perhaps the person Tom Theisman most respects in the entire galaxy. He is, in fact, for various reasons (which I may get around to explaining to you down the road) the reason Theisman restored the Republic.

As for a pardon for Wu or Caslett, neither of them has any intention of putting Eloise in the position of having to issue any pardons. Which doesn't mean that they can never again visit Haven. They are now citizens of other, allied star nations, and in the treaty between the SKM and the RoH, Beth demanded (with a little nudge-nudge, wink-wink from Eloise) a clause recognizing the adopted citizenship of expatriates from either star nation to the other (there were none from the SKM to the PRH, of course) and granting them immunity for any "crimes" they might have against their previous star nation after they acquired their new citizenship. Please note how carefully that was phrased. It doesn't protect anyone from war crimes committed against another star nation (i.e., SS thugs who tortured or murdered POWs), nor does it protect them from prosecution for any crime they might have committed before swearing allegiance to another star nation. Technically, Caslett might be prosecuted for his actions in the Battle of Cerberus, but no one is interested in poking that can of worms. Besides, he only "went over to the other side" after discovering irrefutable evidence that the regime he had been serving had actually committed mass murder and treason against the one to which he had sworn his original oath as an officer. As such, it can very easily be argued that he never committed treason at all; his initial service with Manticore and then Grayson was the only way to fight the real traitors, and when the restored Republic resumed offensive operations he was a citizen of Grayson, not Haven.

Wu would be more at risk than Theisman under a persnickety reading of the law, and while he has immunity from prosecution, that is not the same as a pardon.

stewart wrote:

cthia wrote:Yes! Welcome to the forums!

H GOLLY GEE. Do pardon my manners. Thanks for taking up the slack, Theemile. I think we've finally restocked on virtual Old Tilmans, since the junctions are reopened. If you've taken a liking to liquids filtered from a horse, that is. If not, we can just slip a virtual cocoa on Honor's tab. She'll never catch it amongst all the other real expenditures.

BTW, I don't recall our defectors interacting anywhere in storyline with their old navy, but they must have. Anyone else recall?

----------------

At least the "after action" discussion following Fillereta's demise showed a very cordial interaction between Alfredo and Tom Theisman; Granted they were both on Manticore and in an unofficial setting, but it appears no ill will between these two.

-- Stewart

runsforcelery wrote:Uh, you might say that. Alfredo Wu is perhaps the person Tom Theisman most respects in the entire galaxy. He is, in fact, for various reasons (which I may get around to explaining to you down the road) the reason Theisman restored the Republic.

As for a pardon for Wu or Caslett, neither of them has any intention of putting Eloise in the position of having to issue any pardons. Which doesn't mean that they can never again visit Haven. They are now citizens of other, allied star nations, and in the treaty between the SKM and the RoH, Beth demanded (with a little nudge-nudge, wink-wink from Eloise) a clause recognizing the adopted citizenship of expatriates from either star nation to the other (there were none from the SKM to the PRH, of course) and granting them immunity for any "crimes" they might have against their previous star nation after they acquired their new citizenship. Please note how carefully that was phrased. It doesn't protect anyone from war crimes committed against another star nation (i.e., SS thugs who tortured or murdered POWs), nor does it protect them from prosecution for any crime they might have committed before swearing allegiance to another star nation. Technically, Caslett might be prosecuted for his actions in the Battle of Cerberus, but no one is interested in poking that can of worms. Besides, he only "went over to the other side" after discovering irrefutable evidence that the regime he had been serving had actually committed mass murder and treason against the one to which he had sworn his original oath as an officer. As such, it can very easily be argued that he never committed treason at all; his initial service with Manticore and then Grayson was the only way to fight the real traitors, and when the restored Republic resumed offensive operations he was a citizen of Grayson, not Haven.

Wu would be more at risk than Theisman under a persnickety reading of the law, and while he has immunity from prosecution, that is not the same as a pardon.

Alfredo (W)u? I'd say it's definitely a typo, except you made it twice?? Another memo I didn't get?

That's a wonderful, ingenious actually, way to get around the problem. But. Isn't it rather obvious? And wouldn't it seem self-serving of Eloise to grease the way for "the traitors," -- to dodge the wrath of the people who would give her a hard time with a pardon? Because, who else would it, could it, benefit?

As far as neither would want to do that to Eloise, I said the same thing, somewhere!

There could be another reason, not specifically covered by runsforcelery, and that could be simply that both Yu & Caslet are both extremely honourable men and only defected after considerable soul searching and much heartache.

Would that honour prevent them from renouncing their Grason citizenship with all its like backlash from the antagonistic Grayson Steadholders.

Plus what reason could they give to Grayson for do this, they are both well treated and highly respected in Grayson

cthia wrote:Yes! Welcome to the forums!

cthia wrote::oops:H GOLLY GEE. Do pardon my manners. Thanks for taking up the slack, Theemile. I think we've finally restocked on virtual Old Tilmans, since the junctions are reopened. If you've taken a liking to liquids filtered from a horse, that is. If not, we can just slip a virtual cocoa on Honor's tab. She'll never catch it amongst all the other real expenditures.

BTW, I don't recall our defectors interacting anywhere in storyline with their old navy, but they must have. Anyone else recall?

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stewart wrote:At least the "after action" discussion following Fillereta's demise showed a very cordial interaction between Alfredo and Tom Theisman; Granted they were both on Manticore and in an unofficial setting, but it appears no ill will between these two.

-- Stewart

runsforcelery wrote:Uh, you might say that. Alfredo Wu is perhaps the person Tom Theisman most respects in the entire galaxy. He is, in fact, for various reasons (which I may get around to explaining to you down the road) the reason Theisman restored the Republic.

As for a pardon for Wu or Caslett, neither of them has any intention of putting Eloise in the position of having to issue any pardons. Which doesn't mean that they can never again visit Haven. They are now citizens of other, allied star nations, and in the treaty between the SKM and the RoH, Beth demanded (with a little nudge-nudge, wink-wink from Eloise) a clause recognizing the adopted citizenship of expatriates from either star nation to the other (there were none from the SKM to the PRH, of course) and granting them immunity for any "crimes" they might have against their previous star nation after they acquired their new citizenship. Please note how carefully that was phrased. It doesn't protect anyone from war crimes committed against another star nation (i.e., SS thugs who tortured or murdered POWs), nor does it protect them from prosecution for any crime they might have committed before swearing allegiance to another star nation. Technically, Caslett might be prosecuted for his actions in the Battle of Cerberus, but no one is interested in poking that can of worms. Besides, he only "went over to the other side" after discovering irrefutable evidence that the regime he had been serving had actually committed mass murder and treason against the one to which he had sworn his original oath as an officer. As such, it can very easily be argued that he never committed treason at all; his initial service with Manticore and then Grayson was the only way to fight the real traitors, and when the restored Republic resumed offensive operations he was a citizen of Grayson, not Haven.

Wu would be more at risk than Theisman under a persnickety reading of the law, and while he has immunity from prosecution, that is not the same as a pardon.

Alfredo (W)u? I'd say it's definitely a typo, except you made it twice?? Another memo I didn't get?

That's a wonderful, ingenious actually, way to get around the problem. But. Isn't it rather obvious? And wouldn't it seem self-serving of Eloise to grease the way for "the traitors," -- to dodge the wrath of the people who would give her a hard time with a pardon? Because, who else would it, could it, benefit?

As far as neither would want to do that to Eloise, I said the same thing, somewhere!

It was a typo, induced by my voice recognition software and not caught by my proofreading eye.

Very few Havenites think of Yu or Caslett as traitors, given the circumstances each faced. Of course some of the old school diehards do, but those are the same people who want to strangle the Pericard constitution and return to the "good old days." Nobody is too worried about their reaction, really, because if they're ever in a position to do anything about it, the Republic is going to have a lot worse problems about what to do about Yu and Caslett. Besides, Elizabeth couldn't not demand the clause without betraying people who had followed their consciences at the hardest moment in their lives. And Yu and Caslett are guilty of nothing Tom Theisman didn't also: rebellion against the Committee and helping to kill personnel who were "just following orders" from the folks who killed the Legislaturalists.

runsforcelery wrote:


It was a typo, induced by my voice recognition software and not caught by my proofreading eye.

Very few Havenites think of Yu or Caslett as traitors, given the circumstances each faced. Of course some of the old school diehards do, but those are the same people who want to strangle the Pericard constitution and return to the "good old days." Nobody is too worried about their reaction, really, because if they're ever in a position to do anything about it, the Republic is going to have a lot worse problems about what to do about Yu and Caslett. Besides, Elizabeth couldn't not demand the clause without betraying people who had followed their consciences at the hardest moment in their lives. And Yu and Caslett are guilty of nothing Tom Theisman didn't also: rebellion against the Committee and helping to kill personnel who were "just following orders" from the folks who killed the Legislaturalists.

I suspect that Queen Elizebeth demanded that clause out of respect for Protector Benjamin. There is after all that matter of the Elysian Space Navy comprised of escapees from a PRH prison planet.

TFLYTSNBN wrote:

runsforcelery wrote:


It was a typo, induced by my voice recognition software and not caught by my proofreading eye.

Very few Havenites think of Yu or Caslett as traitors, given the circumstances each faced. Of course some of the old school diehards do, but those are the same people who want to strangle the Pericard constitution and return to the "good old days." Nobody is too worried about their reaction, really, because if they're ever in a position to do anything about it, the Republic is going to have a lot worse problems about what to do about Yu and Caslett. Besides, Elizabeth couldn't not demand the clause without betraying people who had followed their consciences at the hardest moment in their lives. And Yu and Caslett are guilty of nothing Tom Theisman didn't also: rebellion against the Committee and helping to kill personnel who were "just following orders" from the folks who killed the Legislaturalists.

I suspect that Queen Elizebeth demanded that clause out of respect for Protector Benjamin. There is after all that matter of the Elysian Space Navy comprised of escapees from a PRH prison planet.

Not to mention the bloodbath when Havenite Marshalls attempt to arrest a certain fugitive from Justice (Fake hanging or no). The deaths of Marshall BATALLIONS would create quite a diplomatic faux pas.

TFLYTSNBN wrote:

runsforcelery wrote:


It was a typo, induced by my voice recognition software and not caught by my proofreading eye.

Very few Havenites think of Yu or Caslett as traitors, given the circumstances each faced. Of course some of the old school diehards do, but those are the same people who want to strangle the Pericard constitution and return to the "good old days." Nobody is too worried about their reaction, really, because if they're ever in a position to do anything about it, the Republic is going to have a lot worse problems about what to do about Yu and Caslett. Besides, Elizabeth couldn't not demand the clause without betraying people who had followed their consciences at the hardest moment in their lives. And Yu and Caslett are guilty of nothing Tom Theisman didn't also: rebellion against the Committee and helping to kill personnel who were "just following orders" from the folks who killed the Legislaturalists.

I suspect that Queen Elizebeth demanded that clause out of respect for Protector Benjamin. There is after all that matter of the Elysian Space Navy comprised of escapees from a PRH prison planet.

I didn't consider the ESN personnel. Many of them were political prisoners, iinm, but to what extent? Would they need pardons or immunity from any kind of prosecution? As I recall, they were the victims.

Cartref wrote:There could be another reason, not specifically covered by runsforcelery, and that could be simply that both Yu & Caslet are both extremely honourable men and only defected after considerable soul searching and much heartache.

Would that honour prevent them from renouncing their Grason citizenship with all its like backlash from the antagonistic Grayson Steadholders.

Plus what reason could they give to Grayson for do this, they are both well treated and highly respected in Grayson

Wives of their own on Grayson might make them feel really content. I always hoped the author would have a word with Cupid on their behalf. Defectors away from their homes and family "stranded" on an entirely new planet without love in their lives has to have its downsides. A wife -- or three -- and family, would go a long way to make them feel at home and really allow them to heal. In fact, they could find love right from Honor's Steading.

Hi RoseandHeather. I don't see where President Pritchard can get on her high horse about treason. AFAIR she started out as a illegal conspirator against the then legitimate government of Haven and maybe even as a terrorist against said legitimate government, and if she didn't conspire to overthrow the Committee she certainly threw in with those who did and accepted political office at their hands with no attempt to arrest them for their crimes against the previous government - like assassinating it's head. On several counts she is a traitor herself and against more than one government of Haven. Of course she was doing what was possible, honourable (to any right thinking person), and for the greater good of Haven, but then, Wu and Caslet would argue, so were they. (Least seems that way to me, but it's a long time since I read the relevant books.)

Randomiser wrote:Hi RoseandHeather. I don't see where President Pritchard can get on her high horse about treason. AFAIR she started out as a illegal conspirator against the then legitimate government of Haven and maybe even as a terrorist against said legitimate government, and if she didn't conspire to overthrow the Committee she certainly threw in with those who did and accepted political office at their hands with no attempt to arrest them for their crimes against the previous government - like assassinating it's head. On several counts she is a traitor herself and against more than one government of Haven. Of course she was doing what was possible, honourable (to any right thinking person), and for the greater good of Haven, but then, Wu and Caslet would argue, so were they. (Least seems that way to me, but it's a long time since I read the relevant books.)

There is a difference between staying within the system and going outside to join an enemy. I suspect that the problem is not her personal feelings, but attempting to respect the feelings of all those that also stayed within the system and had to face the dangers that represented.

There is also the attendant problem that there may be others who left Haven and could argue that they were just as deserving as Caslet and all. Simpler to just issue a blanket denial that to try to examine case by case. RFC pointed out that the agreement with Queen Elizabeth, meant that there was no legal jeopardy even without a pardon.