Honorverse ramblings and musings

cthia wrote:

wiki wrote:The Echo system was a form of stealth technology developed in the Solarian League.
...

Charles tried to sell it to the People's Republic of Haven in the early 1910s PD. (HHA5.2: AAoW)

"Charles" tried to sell the Echo system to Haven -- or at least revealed it by installing it on the stolen Star Knight cruiser, Ellipsis, before Adm McQueen's attempted coup. (Mid-1914PD) That means that Haven R&D should have been aware of it during Shannon Forracker's entire command of Bolthole. The Anderman Empire should have been at least aware of the capability, if not aware of any particulars.

That makes at least three R&D establishments aware of the Echo system, for at least eight years, but there's no hint that any of them have put even a first generation system into service on even a limited basis.

The institutional conservatism of the SLN, and Not Invented Here resistance to outside ideas, (plus budget concerns) explains why the SLN hasn't deployed any version of the system, but nothing explains why Haven or the Andermani haven't come up with something similar -- except that Charle's "innovations" tend to be functional but impractical for deployment.

The "Crippler" worked fine against unprotected merchantmen, but would neever have worked against a warship; The "Redactor" worked fine as long as you had access to the oppositions sensor feeds to install it. The flaw in the "Echo" system isn't made clear, but it is probably related to the comment about facing too many opponents (i.e. probably more than one.)

cthia wrote:

wiki wrote:The Echo system was a form of stealth technology developed in the Solarian League.
...

Charles tried to sell it to the People's Republic of Haven in the early 1910s PD. (HHA5.2: AAoW)

Weird Harold wrote:"Charles" tried to sell the Echo system to Haven -- or at least revealed it by installing it on the stolen Star Knight cruiser, Ellipsis, before Adm McQueen's attempted coup. (Mid-1914PD) That means that Haven R&D should have been aware of it during Shannon Forracker's entire command of Bolthole. The Anderman Empire should have been at least aware of the capability, if not aware of any particulars.

That makes at least three R&D establishments aware of the Echo system, for at least eight years, but there's no hint that any of them have put even a first generation system into service on even a limited basis.

The institutional conservatism of the SLN, and Not Invented Here resistance to outside ideas, (plus budget concerns) explains why the SLN hasn't deployed any version of the system, but nothing explains why Haven or the Andermani haven't come up with something similar -- except that Charle's "innovations" tend to be functional but impractical for deployment.

The "Crippler" worked fine against unprotected merchantmen, but would neever have worked against a warship; The "Redactor" worked fine as long as you had access to the oppositions sensor feeds to install it. The flaw in the "Echo" system isn't made clear, but it is probably related to the comment about facing too many opponents (i.e. probably more than one.)

Sure thing Harold.

I always assumed that the Echo system had more than its share of wrinkles requiring ironing. Akin to the issues with the Apollo system in its infancy.

But that was just part of the appeal to me. My thinking was that the League could have chosen the Echo system as the instrument to display its R&D might - to strut its stuff. I was thinking that the hurdles to overcome with Echo were just too insurmountable for anyone in the much too busy and smaller Haven sector. But for the industrial might of the League, now that's a horse of a different color.

Anyways, I just KNEW the League was going to, at least temporarily, school the Haven sector - Echo would have done just that. By breaking the threat-env mold!

It would have been great for storyline. Not too late!

cthia wrote:I always assumed that the Echo system had more than its share of wrinkles requiring ironing. Akin to the issues with the Apollo system in its infancy.

The difference is that, like the rest of the stuff Charles peddled, the Echo has fundamental flaws that make it totally impractical for mass production/deployment. Apollo, OTOH, is a sound idea with more and more applications being found as the system is perfected and deployed.

If Echo was a sound idea that could be scaled up to full deployment, I'd expect Shannon to have picked up on the idea and developed either a Havenite version or a counter.

PS: I think Charles would like you -- as a customer.

Weird Harold wrote:

cthia wrote:I always assumed that the Echo system had more than its share of wrinkles requiring ironing. Akin to the issues with the Apollo system in its infancy.

The difference is that, like the rest of the stuff Charles peddled, the Echo has fundamental flaws that make it totally impractical for mass production/deployment. Apollo, OTOH, is a sound idea with more and more applications being found as the system is perfected and deployed.

If Echo was a sound idea that could be scaled up to full deployment, I'd expect Shannon to have picked up on the idea and developed either a Havenite version or a counter.

PS: I think Charles would like you -- as a customer.

****** *


What is the basic shape of a CLAC, and the tonnage compared to an SD? Can a CLAC roll to interpose the wedge?

I wonder if MaxxQ has some renders of a CLAC.

cthia wrote:What is the basic shape of a CLAC, and the tonnage compared to an SD? Can a CLAC roll to interpose the wedge?

I wonder if MaxxQ has some renders of a CLAC.

Haven's CLAC's have been SD-size range; Grayson and Manticoran CLAC's, DN so far. Basic shapes aren't much different from actual wallers. The tapering to the hammerheads tends to be much less gradual, and the hammerheads themselves a bit shorter. Proportions otherwise are not all that different from DN's or SD's/SD(P)'s.

Profiles from the side for the Allied ships (some of them, anyway) are in House of Steel. These impressions come from there more than anywhere else. I don't believe MaxxQ has renders of ships larger than BC's on deviantart - not that I recall at any rate.

cthia wrote:What is the basic shape of a CLAC, and the tonnage compared to an SD? Can a CLAC roll to interpose the wedge?

I wonder if MaxxQ has some renders of a CLAC.

Depends on the CLAC. The Grayson / Manitcoran ones are around 6.1 - 6.2 mtons.

That's even smaller than a SLN SD (Scientist-class; 6.8 mtons), and much closer to a RMN or PNS DN than an SD. However Haven has some SD-sized CLACs; their Aviary-class (I don't know that we ever got an exact tonnage for them)

The line drawing in House of Steel shows that the CLACs have basically the same double-tapered spindle design of all starships. But a comparison of the hull dimensions shows that they're a bit (about 14%) "stubbier" than a normal waller. I assume the PSN CLACs are the same; but we probably won't know until House of Lies is released with their specs.


The Invictus SD(P), Medusa SD(P), Gryphon SD, Sphinx SD, Bellerophon DN, and Majestic DN classes all have a length-to-beam ratio around 6.9.
The 3 RMN or GSN CLAC classes have a l/b ratio around 6.0.
(But the beam-to-draught ratios of all of them are pretty similar - so the CLACs are really "shorter" than they'd normally be; not fatter)

If a Hydra-class had an l/b ratio of 6.9 its hull would be 1287.2m, instead of the 1129m its actually listed at.

cthia wrote:"n7axw"]"JeffEngel"]
Halo is not bad. It's a reasonable and effective response to the state of the art of 15-20 years back. The idea of it may play some small part in the next generation of Grand Alliance decoy/ECM systems - 5% to 10%, if these could be quantified.

If they had the time, and could shake off the dust of centuries of accumulated bad habits, the SLN could enjoy the benefits of the greatest tech base and economy and re-invent itself as a true nightmare. But they don't have the time, and that is so very much dust.

We do need to remember that both halo and aegis were developed in ignorance of the actual threat level. There is no good excuse for that. Had the League's ONI been paying attention to what was going on during the Haven sector wars, they could have passed their findings on to people who could have designed ships capable of surviving in that threat environment. What happened is the League is falling victim to its own institutional arrogance.

Don[/quote]
The SLN was guilty of both - flying blind and going off half-cocked.

But the thing is, the League didn't produce anything worthwhile in so many centuries. Talk about resting on your laurels. The only worthwhile tech came from Technodyne, and now Technodyne has gone belly up.



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Not quite -- Technodyne IS under investigation, and several of its senior Exec's are under indictment; but they have not gone belly up.
Personally, I suspect the investigations will not be able to find conclusive evidence and the Exec's will have a plea-bargain (or be disposable).

-- Stewart

cthia wrote:"cthia"]"SWM"]
That's a bit of an overstatement. Nobody had come up with anything really new in interstellar warfare for centuries. There were plenty of advances in other areas, but warfare was pretty much at a static point. You can't really blame the Solarian League when it was true across the entire galaxy.

You have to remember that even in 1922 P.D., the laser head is less than 90 years old, and has been in general distribution for only a little over 50 years. No major battles had yet taken place anywhere with laserheads until the Havenite wars. And the Solarian League only replaces or refits ships on a 100 year schedule. Since warfare had been static for several hundred years, it is not that surprising that almost no one recognized the tidal change represented by the laser head. War and preparations for war are huge incentives for military innovations, and the galaxy had largely been at peace for half a millennium.

Yes, the SLN failed to notice things in the last couple decades that it should have. But it is a bit of a stretch to blame them for not changing things for the previous several centuries.

I certainly see your point. But I don't know. I'm a bit resistant to letting them off the hook so easily. I never imagined the League moving ahead of the warfare game by following what everyone else was doing. I imagined them to be the innovators. Several centuries that they could have set the precedent. We all know and have discussed their R&D might. It's gargantuan. And the League doesn't suffer the education leak that the Havenites bear. The laserhead should have been League designed long before anyone else. IMO[/quote]

SWM wrote:That's reasonable. On the other hand, one might say that the static nature of warfare was to the League's advantage.

Up until the laserhead, battle between fleets followed a simple pattern. Ships would approach and fire at each other (primarily with beams). Whichever side decided they couldn't win would turn wedge and fly away. Only a relatively few people would die, the bigger fleet would almost always win, and everyone would go home to live another day.

The Solarian League Navy was the biggest in the galaxy, outnumbering all other navies put together by an order of magnitude. The old paradigm was perfect for the League. No one could challenge them. It was to the League's advantage that there were no significant developments in military technology for so long. SLN R&D did continue, as evidenced by the laserhead, advances in stealth techniques, improving armor, early failed attempts at missile pods, invention of the PDLC, and the research that produced HALO and AEGIS. The Solarian League was the galactic leader in military R&D for the last five hundred years. Up until maybe 40 years ago, SLN research was responsible for most of the advances in naval warfare. But there was no reason for the SLN to push that R&D fast, and in fact it would have been detrimental to the Navy. A major change in military tech would change the balance of power in the galaxy. There was no reason to look for revolutionary tech, and lots of reasons to deliberately go slow.

The fact that the SLN had been the leader of military R&D for hundreds of years is one reason they were so skeptical of advances in Manticoran tech. I can see your point, but I think the Sollies were the innovators. Until Haven pushed Manticore into a fight for its life.

I think I'm going to wave my white flag SWM. The way you've laid it out here makes a heckuva lotta sense. Your post makes me consider the sentiment, "Keep Pandora in her box, because you can never know who she'll side with."

One of my brothers used to say that about my niece.

Standing in the salle, I see your point and yield to its touch. Touché![/quote]


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Another point to remember as well --
R&D in the League is one issue
The R&D the SLN made available to itself is another issue.

Why should a Fleet Procurement Officer spend money on an "unproven design" like improved hull alloys and shield designs when there no neobarbs who can threaten them. Those funds are MUCH better spent by side-tracking them into retirement investments and special interest contracts.

-- Stewart

cthia wrote:I certainly see your point. But I don't know. I'm a bit resistant to letting them off the hook so easily. I never imagined the League moving ahead of the warfare game by following what everyone else was doing. I imagined them to be the innovators. Several centuries that they could have set the precedent. We all know and have discussed their R&D might. It's gargantuan. And the League doesn't suffer the education leak that the Havenites bear. The laserhead should have been League designed long before anyone else. IMO

Now I know the argument. "Necessity is the mother of invention." The League didn't feel that it was necessary to continue reinventing themselves. In retrospect we see that that was wrong, so too does the League, now.

I'm just not quite so sure that they should be let off the hook so easily for their slackness. It's as if the US would stop innovating militarily if peace broke out in its areas of concern for several decades, or even centuries. I often think about that and I'd wager we'd still be paying $100 for a band-aid to fund covert military R&D.

It's just inexcusable to think you can remain top-dog without continuing to eat your Alpo. Inexcusable and a bit unrealistic. IMO. Especially since they were in the business of negotiating by browbeating and shoving missiles up the ass of most everyone in God's creation.

If you're driving a Vector your mileage will vary... and vary... and vary...

I think that the point is that the League wasn't pressing ahead with military R&D. There undoubtedly was R&D going on in other areas even as there was on Manticore whose overall tech was roughly comparable to the League's core worlds.

In the Leagues defense, not only the League, but everybody else believed that the League was too big for anyone else to tackle. Its military was so huge it could swamp any conceivable opponent. So there was no sense of being threatened at all. In addition to that, there was a vested institutional interest against innovation. After all, if the tech changes too drasticly, all of that hardware becomes obsolete and has to be replaced. If what you have seems adequate to the task at hand, that can sound wasteful.

Manticore, on the other hand, crowded ahead with pressurized military R&D because from the time of Roger on, a period of about 50 years, her leadership was very much aware of a deep threat to her long term existence. If Manticore was to survive against the Peeps, she had to produce not only a better trained navy, but a navy whose equipment was qualitatively and technololgically superior to the point where it could stand up to the quantatative superiority that the Peeps could bring to the table. What made Manticore's R&D pressurized was the urgency of survival.

I don't fault the League for its faulure to do military R&D nearly so much as I do for its failure to keep track of the threat level. There had been a war going out in the Haven sector for almost 20 years and between simply not paying attention and actively supressing reports of what was going on, there was a massive intelligence failure; so massive that the League was completey blindsided before the SLN even became aware that there was a threat.

The reasons for this have been frequently discussed in this forum. But here you have the core of what happened.

Don

stewart wrote:I certainly see your point. But I don't know. I'm a bit resistant to letting them off the hook so easily. I never imagined the League moving ahead of the warfare game by following what everyone else was doing. I imagined them to be the innovators. Several centuries that they could have set the precedent. We all know and have discussed their R&D might. It's gargantuan. And the League doesn't suffer the education leak that the Havenites bear. The laserhead should have been League designed long before anyone else. IMO
-- Stewart

Let's not confuse engineering Prowess for Innovation. One can have the best engineered product out there without innovating a new idea - and that is the SLN. In one of the battle sequences, the SLN command crew is watching in awe as the wave of Manty missiles comes at them and one of the Staff metions that despite their advantages, the attack missile delta V is ~3000m/s LOWER than the current SLN missile, making intercept vectors more...predictable. (of course the ECM kicked in moments later and that went out the airlock).

So the impellers in a SLN missile produce better accel than an RMN missile. The PDCLs may have a few dozen meters more reach, and their CMs may be designed to be no less effective than their predecessor, but are 500% more reliable.

My point here is the SLN is in a mode of re-engineering and refining their existing tech, but is not innovating new concepts and ideas. The R&D is working hard to make the best of what they have without upsetting the applecart in the process.

Of course you also have the added "benefit" of the issues we have in the modern US mil industrial establishment - enough oversite and project creep to destroy any project before it starts.