Opening Phase of Havenite war

Chess board! A move-or-two ahead.

I'm looking at seizing Basilisk as part of an overall grand strategy and one-two punch of a coordinated attack on the MBS. Not as a standalone move in and of itself. The premise of the thread is for Haven to use its weight advantage in the opening phase of the war. Even with a weight advantage, you don't want to throw it all away w/o some sort of overall strategy. That's akin to boring straight in like a bull in a china shop (Crandall style). A war footing w/o some sort of strategy first, is akin to going off all half-cocked, which is a grave mistake. Something my 12-yr-old niece tried to impart to a group of college students who insisted she parse tactics and strategy in order of importance. Which is asinine, as she stated. However, acquiring Basilisk changes the overall tactics and needed firepower of the RMN to ensure the gates stay closed — having the added Peep advantage of tying down RMN ships when they finally come calling . . .

What does seizing Basilisk do to RMN forces?

1. It makes it imperative for the RMN to keep the Basilisk and Trevor's Star gates closed at all costs.
   
2. It demands mobile RMN units to mind the store as well.

As part of a two-pronged coordinated attack through hyper upon the MBS with its significant weight advantage, Haven could have sent a force directly at the mines in the opening phase of the war, to launch ballistically if need be, without worry of an EE violation, considering the vector of attack. The RMN would have had to honor any force trying to open up the terminii. The RMN force tasked with doing so would have had to be substantial. A collapsed Basilisk/Trevor's Star dam could have spelled doom for the RMN against a mass of prepositioned ships. The RMN would have been primed for a blitzkrieg. That would have split Home Fleet's forces - further weakening them against an already overweight opponent.

Logistically, it would have been a better plan, retaining much of their forces "in Havenite space" and blunting the logistics nightmare of sending so many ships through hyper to Manticore. The Peep forces at Basilisk would have been available for battle without a long exhaustive logistics nightmare — much as how Harrington's Eighth Fleet was available to tap during the BoM. It also would have killed two-birds with one stone -- the Strategic Reach of a prepositioned base with potential to be a part of an overall direct thrust into the heart of Manticore later on, plus add significant revenue to the Peep war fighting machine in the meantime (which . . . thanks to munroburton I'm no longer in the dark regarding that stone.)

Questions:

How close to the junctions/forts/mines can an opposing force hyper?

Does each fort in the MBS cover all inbound terminii, e.g., the Basilisk and Trevor's Star ends? Or does each terminii have its own forts/mines?

Side note: The Peeps using Basilisk as a springboard to advance into Silesia is an example of Strategic Reach.

The RMN had absurd defenses on the junction. The only thing attacking through the WH does is increase your body count.

If you bring enough firepower via hyper to punch out enough of the defenses to open up the junction you don't need the help via the junction. Anything that can transit the junction can come in via hyperspace too.

If you are going to go after the junction (which is a bad plan) you should do it in peacetime before they deploy the minefields.

But if you have enough firepower to confidently take the junction you almost certainly have enough firepower to take Manticore.

kzt wrote:The RMN had absurd defenses on the junction. The only thing attacking through the WH does is increase your body count.

If you bring enough firepower via hyper to punch out enough of the defenses to open up the junction you don't need the help via the junction. Anything that can transit the junction can come in via hyperspace too.

If you are going to go after the junction (which is a bad plan) you should do it in peacetime before they deploy the minefields.

But if you have enough firepower to confidently take the junction you almost certainly have enough firepower to take Manticore.

Indeed, your logic makes sense to me. However, the Battle of Basilisk was during peacetime, wasn't it? Basilisk could have been taken with a large force w/o need of a fleet train, which is what was sent. Then a direct assault shortly thereafter on the Manticore before a shipload of mines are laid. I assume some mines were already emplaced.

Prepositioning forces at Basilisk isn't simply to assist in a direct assault later, but to forego having to hustle up a fleet train for the entire party enroute to Manticore.

Going after the junctions has the benefit of splitting Home Fleet, to defeat in detail. A good plan, IMO, especially if the Tripple Ripple is unleashed for the first time.

At any rate, a bad idea is a direct assault in the first place, counting wholly on a weight advantage.

cthia wrote:Questions:

How close to the junctions/forts/mines can an opposing force hyper?

Does each fort in the MBS cover all inbound terminii, e.g., the Basilisk and Trevor's Star ends? Or does each terminii have its own forts/mines?

The first book mentions that "Both wormholes and stars had hyper limits, within which no ship could enter or leave hyper. For junctions, the limit was, less than a million kilometers" -- Though book 10 War of Honor mentions that the Junction itself is about 1 light-second in diameter -- all 7 termini lie within that volume of space. (So at minimum the closest exit from hyper is 850,000 km from the center of the junction) And don't forget you can't risk screwing up and dropping out in the resonance zone.

It also points out that you don't put even the closest fort within half a million km of a terminus - you don't want an attacker to be emerge from the terminus close enough to punch energy weapons through the fort's sidewalls. I suspect the closest forts would be at about 600-700,000 km away - close enough that their energy weapons are effective against transiting warships (which won't have sidewalls until they manage to clear the grav effects of the terminus 30-300 seconds after emerging) while remaining immune to the energy weapons of the transiting warship.

That does mean that not all forts are going to be within energy range of all termini. However they're all easily within single-drive missile range of all termini.



In theory you could probably drop out of hyper within energy range of some of the forts - but in practice we're told this requires far too precise navigation to be possible (especially given the risks of overshooting slightly are destruction of your ship). So most likely even the best possible navigation, and riskiest approach, drops the attacker at extreme missile range of the nearest forts (and due to the hyperspace transition energy bleed-off they drop out at quite low velocity)

The one time we saw it serious tried - 2nd Basilisk - the pounce came up quite short and the attackers were, what, about half an hour from effective MDM range?

cthia wrote:Going after the junctions has the benefit of splitting Home Fleet, to defeat in detail. A good plan, IMO, especially if the Tripple Ripple is unleashed for the first time.

The terminus and junction are outside the hyperlimit.

You deliver some huge attack they just hyper out.

It takes a serious error or something very clever to get a decisive battle outside the hyperlimit.

kzt wrote:

cthia wrote:Going after the junctions has the benefit of splitting Home Fleet, to defeat in detail. A good plan, IMO, especially if the Tripple Ripple is unleashed for the first time.

The terminus and junction are outside the hyperlimit.

You deliver some huge attack they just hyper out.

It takes a serious error or something very clever to get a decisive battle outside the hyperlimit.

'Tis true?, do pardon my faux pas, I'm having a blonde moment. Who hypers out where? I'm going to wager the who is the mobile RMN forces tasked with protecting the wormhole? If so, let them run. A hostile force, simply needs an unopposed vector for, at the very least, an unopposed ballistic launch on fortifications. No?"

The forts have impellers and wedges and maneuver at least slightly while on alert to avoid ballistic attacks. They might drop them in combat to go to their bubble sidewall, but the people running the junction defense have thought long and hard about this.

cthia wrote:

kzt wrote:The terminus and junction are outside the hyperlimit.

You deliver some huge attack they just hyper out.

It takes a serious error or something very clever to get a decisive battle outside the hyperlimit.

'Tis true?, do pardon my faux pas, I'm having a blonde moment. Who hypers out where? I'm going to wager the who is the mobile RMN forces tasked with protecting the wormhole? If so, let them run. A hostile force, simply needs an unopposed vector for, at the very least, an unopposed ballistic launch on fortifications. No?"

I think that's a typo in KZT's post. they=then.

Basically, deliver a huge raid upon the Junction defenses, then hyper out. It'll all be over hours before Home Fleet can intervene.

But, and I'm not 100% certain of this, but before Manticore took Trevor's Star, they had at least a hundred sixteen-million ton forts on Junction defense duty. This would mass slightly more than the PRH's entire inventory of BBs in 1905.

It's quite possible Manticore had far more than 100 forts on Junction duty - IIRC, the figure was 2-2.5 million fort crew freed up by shutting down the Junction forts alone. At 5,000 crew per fort, that's nearly 300 - and therefore logically all the forts deployed at the Junction are constantly at ready status with off-duty forts withdrawing at least some distance into the hyper limit. It's a formidable walnut to crack indeed.

It's probable that Fort Command simply rotated forts between the planets and the Junction, as back then Sphinx was far enough inside the hyper limit to allow its sleeping defenders time to react against a surprise attack.

Any attempt at conquering Manticore before it took Trevor's Star would have had to deal with potentially five billion tons of forts in addition to Home Fleet. The entire mobile force of the People's Navy in 1905 massed 4.7 billion tons.

And the MDM/podnought mix made all of that tonnage - on both sides - completely obsolete. Phew.

munroburton wrote:
Any attempt at conquering Manticore before it took Trevor's Star would have had to deal with potentially five billion tons of forts in addition to Home Fleet. The entire mobile force of the People's Navy in 1905 massed 4.7 billion tons.

And the MDM/podnought mix made all of that tonnage - on both sides - completely obsolete. Phew.

The forts would also be better armed and armored for their weight then ships are. They would also be able to get away with having less space for spare parts, rations, and crew recreation/support facilities. The last depends on often the crew members can get shore leave.

After Haven took San Martin, while Manticore still control of the Junction, there were challanges with the terminus. I don't remember all the detail but once the Haven-Manticore war started. that terminus was closed to Haven. Even if Manticore held full control of the Trevor's Star terminus it lost it to Haven in the opening of the war.
If Haven had been able to take control of Basilisk in their ploy to forment an uprising of the local enhabitants AND hold control of that terminus, it would have put a lot of pressure on Manticore. Given that there was essentialy only Harrington and the Fearless at Basilisk, Haven could have just parked a couple of squadrons of heavy warships on the Basilisk end of the wormhole and assumed control along with having taken over the planet and all local resources. Manticore would be unable to send anything through and Haven would have been snapping up shipping (or ransoming it if SKM) comming from Silesia to use the terminus.

At that point two termini would have been effectivley closed to Mantiocre (and everybody else) during the Haven-Manticore war, depriving Manticore of the transit fees and access to both commercial sets of routes instead of just the one via Trevor's Star.

Haven could have put forts in place at Basilisk Terminus to insure nothing was tired from the Manticore end and, untill the war started, siphoned off the Basilisk end of the fees from all traffic.
It's not that they couldn't preposition ships there for use in an attack of Manticore, it is that it was unnessisary as well as dangerous. They still would have had to attack Manticore via hyper-space, they would have denied the commercial triffic and ability of Manticore to move warships around using Basilisk to Silesia.