Honorverse ramblings and musings

Question.

On multi-stage missiles, does each burn stage decouple from the missile leaving an even smaller, lighter target?

Too lazy to forage through oysters for the right Pearls.

cthia wrote:Question.

On multi-stage missiles, does each burn stage decouple from the missile leaving an even smaller, lighter target?

Too lazy to forage through oysters for the right Pearls.

No textev (per the description in Torch of Freedom) either way for multi-stage missiles (Cataphract), though I suspect they do.

For multi-drive missiles (Manticoran, Havenite and Andermani): No. All the drive rings are located in the same area where a single-drive missile has its only drive ring. DDMs and MDMs mount a gravitic 'baffle' between each adjacent pair of drive rings.

cthia wrote:Don't know of nor was I referencing any source to the effect.

But, why wouldn't a mechanism of the justice system that ensures a fair trial not survive into the future? There are still trials on planet that are ripe for a change of venue. Even the 18th century British Navy eventually moved into the future one change of venue at a time.

But all of this is a moot point and it isn't the cog that turns the sprocket that moves the thought.

For the poor sap who is the victim of difficult to see and prove extenuating circumstances, should have access to a defense attorney adept enough to save an innocent man.

Or the vile blood of savagery runs through the veins of both the accuser and the accused.

It's okay that you don't like the idea of the existence of a change in venue, but the lawyer should be able to reshuffle the deck somehow or, what is his purpose really, if the results are going to be the same? Unless one considers a mockery of justice fitting and reasonable, because of the vastness of distance and the dead of space.

And you can't really expect a fair trial to be held on ship. Especially if the captain is some asshole, without morals, scruples, values or gives-a-damns. *But you are a decent lawyer, a conscientious lawyer, who really believes in your client's innocence, yet no one else does. And you and the captain don't exactly see eye to eye, and you know that captain isn't fair. Or the lawyer in question is cut from the same moral cloth as Harrington, because he is a distant cousin of hers, and the captain hates Harrington, therefore hates you. That situation is so ripe for a change of venue that it's rotten.

But alas, I guess, innocent or no, off with his head!"

*I am not inviting anecdotes such as...
Decent and lawyer used in the same sentence is an oxymoron.

Conscientious used as an adjective for lawyer is grammatically incorrect.

Though I would find them rather hilarious.

As far as extenuating circumstances, I don't see how somebody could be manning a boarding pinnical (or weapons room or bridge or engineering, or, or, or) on a pirate ship accidentally.

If you have evidence that somebody is forced to work against their will, then it would be the job of the defending officer to ensure it was presented at the trial, and if there is a question, it will probably be placed on hold for deeper investigation later.

However, in the situation you posit, a captain who is an "asshole, without morals, scruples, values or gives-a-damns," he, as literally judge, jury, and executioner, would simply do what he wanted anyway regardless of what motions were before him. You have to remember, the only person who can control what a captain on independent deployment does is G-d Himself. The officer assigned as defense attorney would have no grounds for appeal. He would have the option of reporting any irregularities to JAG upon return to civilization, and they would review the transcript and recordings, and decide if they then wanted to charge the captain with murder; but there is litteraly nothing that can be done short of mutiny while underway.

As for why change of venue wouldn't make it into the future; it is still not an option in a military tribunal, and I doubt it ever will be.

Also, if a man is truly innocent, he would happily turn Crown's Evidence and spill everything he heard while being forced to do whatever job he did.

crewdude48 wrote:

cthia wrote:Don't know of nor was I referencing any source to the effect.

But, why wouldn't a mechanism of the justice system that ensures a fair trial not survive into the future? There are still trials on planet that are ripe for a change of venue. Even the 18th century British Navy eventually moved into the future one change of venue at a time.

But all of this is a moot point and it isn't the cog that turns the sprocket that moves the thought.

For the poor sap who is the victim of difficult to see and prove extenuating circumstances, should have access to a defense attorney adept enough to save an innocent man.

Or the vile blood of savagery runs through the veins of both the accuser and the accused.

It's okay that you don't like the idea of the existence of a change in venue, but the lawyer should be able to reshuffle the deck somehow or, what is his purpose really, if the results are going to be the same? Unless one considers a mockery of justice fitting and reasonable, because of the vastness of distance and the dead of space.

And you can't really expect a fair trial to be held on ship. Especially if the captain is some asshole, without morals, scruples, values or gives-a-damns. *But you are a decent lawyer, a conscientious lawyer, who really believes in your client's innocence, yet no one else does. And you and the captain don't exactly see eye to eye, and you know that captain isn't fair. Or the lawyer in question is cut from the same moral cloth as Harrington, because he is a distant cousin of hers, and the captain hates Harrington, therefore hates you. That situation is so ripe for a change of venue that it's rotten.

But alas, I guess, innocent or no, off with his head!"

*I am not inviting anecdotes such as...
Decent and lawyer used in the same sentence is an oxymoron.

Conscientious used as an adjective for lawyer is grammatically incorrect.

Though I would find them rather hilarious.

As far as extenuating circumstances, I don't see how somebody could be manning a boarding pinnical (or weapons room or bridge or engineering, or, or, or) on a pirate ship accidentally.

If you have evidence that somebody is forced to work against their will, then it would be the job of the defending officer to ensure it was presented at the trial, and if there is a question, it will probably be placed on hold for deeper investigation later.

However, in the situation you posit, a captain who is an "asshole, without morals, scruples, values or gives-a-damns," he, as literally judge, jury, and executioner, would simply do what he wanted anyway regardless of what motions were before him. You have to remember, the only person who can control what a captain on independent deployment does is G-d Himself. The officer assigned as defense attorney would have no grounds for appeal. He would have the option of reporting any irregularities to JAG upon return to civilization, and they would review the transcript and recordings, and decide if they then wanted to charge the captain with murder; but there is litteraly nothing that can be done short of mutiny while underway.

As for why change of venue wouldn't make it into the future; it is still not an option in a military tribunal, and I doubt it ever will be.

Also, if a man is truly innocent, he would happily turn Crown's Evidence and spill everything he heard while being forced to do whatever job he did.

Not accidentally operating. Extenuatingly operating.

Off-the-cuff scenario...

John Doe was aboard a freighter that was captured and the crew summarily raped and exterminated. John Doe was the last to be found because he was efficient at hiding. After John was finally discovered, he escaped death and rape by claiming to be a pirate himself, captured, imprisoned and escaped aboard a freighter. Not probable, but possible. The pirates, not wanting to kill one of their own, says "Since you are claiming to be a pirate, we're going to give you a chance to prove it." It is the same as undercover agents infiltrating a crime gang by committing illegal acts of violence themselves. The difference being that the one is assuming the role to bring perpetrators to justice and the other to stay alive. Or a 1001 other unjust ways to die that only Murphy can conceive of.

The point is, you are innocent until proven guilty, not you are alive until airlocked.

As far as your other fine points mind you, maybe or maybe not. Or just perhaps, since this officer was assigned, needless killings have been greatly curtailed, because the "without give-a-damns captain" has finally someone aboard that will eventually see to it that he is accountable for his crimes.

I like this Crown's Evidence. Tell me more.

cthia wrote:The point is, you are innocent until proven guilty, not you are alive until airlocked.

Well, that's part of the problem. It is not innocent until proven guilty. Once again, this is not 21st century civilian America. This is the military, in a setting more akin to 18th century British Navy. Their rules are not the same rule of law that you are most familiar with. For instance, presence of slaver equipment aboard a ship is de facto evidence of slavery, and all crew members are automatically assumed guilty of slavery. There is no assumption of innocence.

Now, I believe that most captains would take into account any extenuating circumstances that the defendants put forward. Not all pirates or slavers are summarily executed. But it is true that a bad captain could have suspected pirates tossed out the airlock with barely any consideration. Yes, that would be considered shocking and unfair in modern America. I don't think it is fair either. But their environment is different, and some rules of modern society do not work well in it. In particular, military justice is not based on fairness. They don't use the same rules you are familiar with. Even today, the concept of "innocent until proven guilty" is not universal.

[edit]I should note that I am not saying that this system is better than ours. I personally far prefer the modern American justice system to the occasionally harsh system in the Honorverse navies. But I recognized that it is different, and have some theoretical understanding of why it is different. (I don't think I want to have more than a theoretical understanding, though.)[/edit]

cthia wrote:I like this Crown's Evidence. Tell me more.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turn_state%27s_evidence

It's an archaic variant of State's Evidence. Manticore likes to substitute Crown for state and Grayson has a similar deal, except theirs is the Sword.

SWM wrote:

cthia wrote:The point is, you are innocent until proven guilty, not you are alive until airlocked.

Well, that's part of the problem. It is not innocent until proven guilty. Once again, this is not 21st century civilian America. This is the military, in a setting more akin to 18th century British Navy. Their rules are not the same rule of law that you are most familiar with. For instance, presence of slaver equipment aboard a ship is de facto evidence of slavery, and all crew members are automatically assumed guilty of slavery. There is no assumption of innocence.

Now, I believe that most captains would take into account any extenuating circumstances that the defendants put forward. Not all pirates or slavers are summarily executed. But it is true that a bad captain could have suspected pirates tossed out the airlock with barely any consideration. Yes, that would be considered shocking and unfair in modern America. I don't think it is fair either. But their environment is different, and some rules of modern society do not work well in it. In particular, military justice is not based on fairness. They don't use the same rules you are familiar with. Even today, the concept of "innocent until proven guilty" is not universal.

[edit]

I should note that I am not saying that this system is better than ours. I personally far prefer the modern American justice system to the occasionally harsh system in the Honorverse navies. But I recognized that it is different, and have some theoretical understanding of why it is different. (I don't think I want to have more than a theoretical understanding, though.)[/edit]

SWM wrote:Well, that's part of the problem. It is not innocent until proven guilty. Once again, this is not 21st century civilian America. This is the military, in a setting more akin to 18th century British Navy. Their rules are not the same rule of law that you are most familiar with. For instance, presence of slaver equipment aboard a ship is de facto evidence of slavery, and all crew members are automatically assumed guilty of slavery. There is no assumption of innocence.

That is a very fine and poignant point SWM. And I don't want you to think it's like pulling teeth with me to get it through my head. I do understand that. But it brings me right back to my initial thought of "I am surprised that it is that way." Not the Honorverse in its entirety, but within Manticoran Verse. Manticore has always sought the moral high-ground, in my book. Therefore, a "kill a few innocent dolphins to catch thousands of crabs," isn't what I'd expect of Manticore. Not the rest of the Verse. On the heels of that, I was also surprised that Manticore allowed dueling as well.

My heartfelt apology to everyone, again, who remembers my entire rant about zero-tolerance, and are now going "WTF, cthia. You've changed!"

I want to assure you all that I haven't left the fold. Make the phucking pirates walk the plank. First capture. Do not pass go. Do not collect 200 credits from the corrupt local system governments.

All I am saying, is that I am surprised that in the Manty Verse it is that way. Totally glad! But amusingly surprised.

As per your edit, I know what you mean. I wouldn't want to have more than a theoretical understanding of it either. You've always been a voice of reason, and have set my derailed, often extreme thoughts back on track more than once, of which I'm grateful.

But I like complete discussions. And I try and tackle issues that no one else will. I now find myself arguing for the one innocent pirate amongst all the others of which I was screaming zero-tolerance. My brand of zero-tolerance!

cthia wrote:

SWM wrote:Well, that's part of the problem. It is not innocent until proven guilty. Once again, this is not 21st century civilian America. This is the military, in a setting more akin to 18th century British Navy. Their rules are not the same rule of law that you are most familiar with. For instance, presence of slaver equipment aboard a ship is de facto evidence of slavery, and all crew members are automatically assumed guilty of slavery. There is no assumption of innocence.

That is a very fine and poignant point SWM. And I don't want you to think it's like pulling teeth with me to get it through my head. I do understand that. But it brings me right back to my initial thought of "I am surprised that it is that way." Not the Honorverse in its entirety, but within Manticoran Verse. Manticore has always sought the moral high-ground, in my book. Therefore, a "kill a few innocent dolphins to catch thousands of crabs," isn't what I'd expect of Manticore. Not the rest of the Verse. On the heels of that, I was also surprised that Manticore allowed dueling as well.

My heartfelt apology to everyone, again, who remembers my entire rant about zero-tolerance, and are now going "WTF, cthia. You've changed!"

I want to assure you all that I haven't left the fold. Make the phucking pirates walk the plank. First capture. Do not pass go. Do not collect 200 credits from the corrupt local system governments.

All I am saying, is that I am surprised that in the Manty Verse it is that way. Totally glad! But amusingly surprised.

As per your edit, I know what you mean. I wouldn't want to have more than a theoretical understanding of it either. You've always been a voice of reason, and have set my derailed, often extreme thoughts back on track more than once, of which I'm grateful.

But I like complete discussions. And I try and tackle issues that no one else will. I now find myself arguing for the one innocent pirate amongst all the others of which I was screaming zero-tolerance. My brand of zero-tolerance!

Different circumstances, different adaptations for them.

Most of us live and have lived in places where the rule of law can be made effective. Chances are decent enough criminals can be caught and apparently guilty innocent parties can be exonerated with investigation, and appropriate punishments and efforts for rehabilitation can be made to work. "Decent enough" in very broad terms - I am absolutely not saying there's not room for bucket-loads of reform. But the fact that we can seriously make calls for reform is due to our society being able to do even better.

Space in the Honorverse is not like that.

It's not because they're a bunch of barbarians, or haven't heard of law and order, or have and don't cotton to that sorta pinko trash. It's because space is BIG. Too much will happen out there that cannot be effectively controlled or investigated. Planets are - at best! - tiny islands of civilization, surrounded by oceans where the extent and the subtlety of the law is measured by impeller missiles.

You're not going to get much more evidence about piracy or slavery than any naval captain in the very lucky possession of an apparent pirate or slaver is going to have with the captured ship. Looking for more will take months or years sifting through unreliable reports from goodness knows where. And handing them over for any other sort of punishment than execution is going to mean both leaving that punishment (or rehabilitation) in often uncertain hands (old Silesian governments, current Solarian OFS ones) and being softer on the pirates or slavers than anyone who's willing to declare war on civilization like that will regard as any sort of deterrent.

Dueling traditions on Manticore at least go back to similar circumstances on frontier worlds. It evolved from very rough-and-ready private justice - if both parties were armed and ready and one ends up dead, you just shrug, figure it was fair, and travel a few hundred kilometers to the next bit of business for a cop on a thinly populated world. That's not like what Manticore particularly, or even Sphinx or Gryphon are like now (1922ish P.D.), but it's a tradition they haven't stamped back down well enough. (There are also in play some ideas of personal honor and what is an appropriate reaction to challenges to it at work that may differ from those common in middle class, first-world 2015 circumstances.) Peg that as one of the places where their justice system, like ours, really is still due for reform, but it's not out of nowhere nor is it hopelessly abusable. (Abusable enough, definitely; sheer license to kill, no.)

JeffEngel wrote:
Most of us live and have lived in places where the rule of law can be made effective. Chances are decent enough criminals can be caught and apparently guilty innocent parties can be exonerated with investigation, and appropriate punishments and efforts for rehabilitation can be made to work. "Decent enough" in very broad terms - I am absolutely not saying there's not room for bucket-loads of reform. But the fact that we can seriously make calls for reform is due to our society being able to do even better.

Space in the Honorverse is not like that.

It's not because they're a bunch of barbarians, or haven't heard of law and order, or have and don't cotton to that sorta pinko trash. It's because space is BIG. Too much will happen out there that cannot be effectively controlled or investigated. Planets are - at best! - tiny islands of civilization, surrounded by oceans where the extent and the subtlety of the law is measured by impeller missiles.

You're not going to get much more evidence about piracy or slavery than any naval captain in the very lucky possession of an apparent pirate or slaver is going to have with the captured ship. Looking for more will take months or years sifting through unreliable reports from goodness knows where. And handing them over for any other sort of punishment than execution is going to mean both leaving that punishment (or rehabilitation) in often uncertain hands (old Silesian governments, current Solarian OFS ones) and being softer on the pirates or slavers than anyone who's willing to declare war on civilization like that will regard as any sort of deterrent.

Dueling traditions on Manticore at least go back to similar circumstances on frontier worlds. It evolved from very rough-and-ready private justice - if both parties were armed and ready and one ends up dead, you just shrug, figure it was fair, and travel a few hundred kilometers to the next bit of business for a cop on a thinly populated world. That's not like what Manticore particularly, or even Sphinx or Gryphon are like now (1922ish P.D.), but it's a tradition they haven't stamped back down well enough. (There are also in play some ideas of personal honor and what is an appropriate reaction to challenges to it at work that may differ from those common in middle class, first-world 2015 circumstances.) Peg that as one of the places where their justice system, like ours, really is still due for reform, but it's not out of nowhere nor is it hopelessly abusable. (Abusable enough, definitely; sheer license to kill, no.)

Nice post, Jeff and I wholeheartedly agree... I could add something about our own here and now that would trigger a discussion heated enough for Duckk to shut down the thread...so I won't.

Don

saber964 wrote:Hear is a thought. Do you think Treecats will be able to join the SEM military now that they've come out of the closet as far as there intelligence is concerned.

At the very least, providing some sort of military status would put them under the protection of the Deneb accords, if they and their two-legs are taken prisoner.