What is the |value| of captured enemy systems?

I'm in the midst of watching the movie Gallant Hours, recommended by my history buff of a sister long time ago.

This thread is an excellent reason to do so.

Here is a disastrous possibility that hails from yet another difference from the traditional aspects of war. . .

In the Honorverse, an enemy can operate in your rear area with impunity, unlike in today's world. Which, in todays world, would make it risky for an Admiral like Halsey to fly overseas from Pearl Harbor to inspect Guadalcanal. He could have gotten caught with his pants down, intercepted. Much like Honor did when she had to surrender, being taken completely unawares and intercepted.

The SLN's Operation Buccaneer could make it risky for otherwise routine travel of top brass from place to place. For that reason alone, the SLN should have targeted any ship even remotely affiliated with the GA.

OMG!

A little further into the movie a Japanese sub spotted an American flying boat en route to Guadalcanal. The decoded message of the sighting ends up in the hands of Yamamoto's Chief of Staff. Meet Rear Admiral Jiro Kobe. Kobe is summoned to the office of his CO.

16 October, 1942.

Transcripts . . .

Meet Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto, Commander in Chief of the combined Japanese Fleet. Americans who knew him when he was a naval attaché in Washington, D.C., remembers him as an excellent poker player. He was especially good at bluffing.

Admiral Yamamoto asks Kobe for his latest estimate of the enemy situation on Guadalcanal. Kobe tells him the Japanese Naval and air bombardments have put almost all allied fighter aircraft out of commission. Imperial Japanese troops have practically surrounded Henderson Field. Allied ground forces have had no supplies or reinforcements. In his opinion, Guadalcanal will be in Japanese hands within four days. How sure is he? Well, here is a plan for the surrender ceremony. Yamamoto is delighted with the plans. Lauds Kobe for his initiative. The decoded paper draws Yamamoto's attention. An American flying boat spotted en route to Guadalcanal. To Kobe it is an item of no consequence. But Yamamoto is interested.

Several high ranking American officers at Pearl Harbor have been unaccounted for for the past three days, they could be anywhere. The odds against their being on that flying boat is incalculable. But the old poker player has a hunch. When you get a hunch, bet a hunch. He orders twenty Zeroes to intercept the flying boat on its arrival at Guadalcanal.

OMG!

.

cthia wrote:...Meet Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto, ...

When you get a hunch, bet a hunch. He orders twenty Zeroes to intercept the flying boat on its arrival at Guadalcanal.

I don't know how true that part of the movie is, but it is ironic if true

Operation Vengeancewas the American military operation to kill Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto of the Imperial Japanese Navy on April 18, 1943, during the Solomon Islands campaign in the Pacific Theater of World War II. Isoroku Yamamoto, commander of the Combined Fleet of the Imperial Japanese Navy, was killed on Bougainville Island when his transport bomber aircraft was shot down by United States Army Air Forces fighter aircraft operating from Kukum Field on Guadalcanal.

The mission of the U.S. aircraft was specifically to kill Yamamoto and was based on United States Navy intelligence on Yamamoto's itinerary in the Solomon Islands area.

Weird Harold wrote:

cthia wrote:...Meet Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto, ...

When you get a hunch, bet a hunch. He orders twenty Zeroes to intercept the flying boat on its arrival at Guadalcanal.

I don't know how true that part of the movie is, but it is ironic if true

Operation Vengeancewas the American military operation to kill Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto of the Imperial Japanese Navy on April 18, 1943, during the Solomon Islands campaign in the Pacific Theater of World War II. Isoroku Yamamoto, commander of the Combined Fleet of the Imperial Japanese Navy, was killed on Bougainville Island when his transport bomber aircraft was shot down by United States Army Air Forces fighter aircraft operating from Kukum Field on Guadalcanal.

The mission of the U.S. aircraft was specifically to kill Yamamoto and was based on United States Navy intelligence on Yamamoto's itinerary in the Solomon Islands area.

Gees! Talk about an interesting and timely post, Harold. Thanks.

Back to the movie . . .



"What's our position Andy?"

"We're three minutes ahead of flight plan, sir."

"How long you been on this course?"

"'Bout an hour, sir."

"What's the weather at Guadalcanal?"

"Forecast is for clear. Is anything wrong sir? With the flight plan?"

. . .

"How's it going Chief?"

"Oh fine Admiral. New Mia's been receiving loud and clear."

"Anything new?"

"Ah no sir. Oh except. This wasn't sent to us, but ah, I picked it up. New Mia's(?) reporting unusual Japanese traffic between Truk and Guadalcanal."

. . .

"Sit down. . . . I think we'll pass up Guadalcanal. Tell Andy to change course to New Mia. Direct."

"Aye aye, sir."

Admiral Yamamoto wasn't the only hunch player in the South Pacific.

cthia wrote:Here is a disastrous possibility that hails from yet another difference from the traditional aspects of war. . .

In the Honorverse, an enemy can operate in your rear area with impunity, unlike in today's world. Which, in todays world, would make it risky for an Admiral like Halsey to fly overseas from Pearl Harbor to inspect Guadalcanal. He could have gotten caught with his pants down, intercepted. Much like Honor did when she had to surrender, being taken completely unawares and intercepted.

The SLN's Operation Buccaneer could make it risky for otherwise routine travel of top brass from place to place. For that reason alone, the SLN should have targeted any ship even remotely affiliated with the GA.

I'm surprised that you didn't allude to what happened to Admiral Yamamoto when you mentioned Halsey potentially flying to inspect Guadalcanal. (I see Weird Harold posted it a few posts after your)

But one difference between the Honorverse and WWII aircraft or even age of sail ships is that without exact intelligence of ship movements it's basically impossible to find and intercept a ship in hyper. (Though admittedly the interception of the aforementioned Admiral Yamamoto was at such extreme range that exact details of his flight were needed to pull it off -- he was too far behind the lines for a routine fighter sweep to have stumbled across)

So Operation Buccaneer or a system inspection tour is mostly a risk if an enemy might be able to take over the system you're traveling to (or at least to interdict the area near it's hyper limit) -- so you drop into their arms.

Jonathan_S wrote:

cthia wrote:Here is a disastrous possibility that hails from yet another difference from the traditional aspects of war. . .

In the Honorverse, an enemy can operate in your rear area with impunity, unlike in today's world. Which, in todays world, would make it risky for an Admiral like Halsey to fly overseas from Pearl Harbor to inspect Guadalcanal. He could have gotten caught with his pants down, intercepted. Much like Honor did when she had to surrender, being taken completely unawares and intercepted.

The SLN's Operation Buccaneer could make it risky for otherwise routine travel of top brass from place to place. For that reason alone, the SLN should have targeted any ship even remotely affiliated with the GA.

I'm surprised that you didn't allude to what happened to Admiral Yamamoto when you mentioned Halsey potentially flying to inspect Guadalcanal. (I see Weird Harold posted it a few posts after your)

But one difference between the Honorverse and WWII aircraft or even age of sail ships is that without exact intelligence of ship movements it's basically impossible to find and intercept a ship in hyper. (Though admittedly the interception of the aforementioned Admiral Yamamoto was at such extreme range that exact details of his flight were needed to pull it off -- he was too far behind the lines for a routine fighter sweep to have stumbled across)

So Operation Buccaneer or a system inspection tour is mostly a risk if an enemy might be able to take over the system you're traveling to (or at least to interdict the area near it's hyper limit) -- so you drop into their arms.

But to the stealthy MAlign . . . the galaxy is not safe.

They're like gods, they come like a thief in the night.

Vince wrote:

TFLYTSNBN wrote:I was not necessarily implying mass rape although that is a valid interpratation.

You are correct that any Darwinian consequence would require a huge occupation army. The subnergation of Masada suggest s that the Honorverse standard practice is to seize the orbitals the rely on quick reaction forces backed up by orbital bombardment. However, shipping in million s of troops is feasible. Might be shipping in millions of predominantly male colonists. Latin America is a prime example. Most people in Latin America have New World mitachondria combined with European Y chromosome. Haiti is a conspicuous exception.

A small quibble: Actually, the bolded sentence is somewhat of a contradiction in terms, as currently written (assuming that the premise of the European Y chromosome is correct). The last time I looked, at least half the population on Earth is missing the Y chromosome--they have another, unique X chromosome instead. Correcting the sentence to read--Most males in Latin America have New World mitochondria combined with European Y chromosome--makes more sense, or at least is not a contradiction in terms.

I am corrected.

Just a thought: from a Darwinian perspective, loosing or winning a war is less important to women than men. If men win wars, they get extra breeding opportunities. If women win wars, they gain very little except may be wealth to better the lives of the children they would have anyway. If men loose wars, they might loose their lives or may be their testicles, but on average they end up having fewer children.

At the risk of sounding like a feminist I would point out that matriarchal governed societies would have far less organized warfare than patriarchal societies because the risks verses reward ratio is so much higher.

TFLYTSNBN wrote:At the risk of sounding like a feminist I would point out that matriarchal governed societies would have far less organized warfare than patriarchal societies because the risks verses reward ratio is so much higher.

Since those have never actually existed....

Jonathan_S wrote:

cthia wrote:Here is a disastrous possibility that hails from yet another difference from the traditional aspects of war. . .

In the Honorverse, an enemy can operate in your rear area with impunity, unlike in today's world. Which, in todays world, would make it risky for an Admiral like Halsey to fly overseas from Pearl Harbor to inspect Guadalcanal. He could have gotten caught with his pants down, intercepted. Much like Honor did when she had to surrender, being taken completely unawares and intercepted.

The SLN's Operation Buccaneer could make it risky for otherwise routine travel of top brass from place to place. For that reason alone, the SLN should have targeted any ship even remotely affiliated with the GA.

I'm surprised that you didn't allude to what happened to Admiral Yamamoto when you mentioned Halsey potentially flying to inspect Guadalcanal. (I see Weird Harold posted it a few posts after your)

But one difference between the Honorverse and WWII aircraft or even age of sail ships is that without exact intelligence of ship movements it's basically impossible to find and intercept a ship in hyper. (Though admittedly the interception of the aforementioned Admiral Yamamoto was at such extreme range that exact details of his flight were needed to pull it off -- he was too far behind the lines for a routine fighter sweep to have stumbled across)

So Operation Buccaneer or a system inspection tour is mostly a risk if an enemy might be able to take over the system you're traveling to (or at least to interdict the area near it's hyper limit) -- so you drop into their arms.

Weird Harold, Jonathan, most distinguished guests . . .

Am I missing something simple or subtle here? I feel that I am. Was this "in response to," or "cause of?"

Or am I way off base?