Honorverse ramblings and musings

I think it comesdown to the speed problem. anything powered getting past is of a magnitude that renders bunkers etc moot. a single missile at 0.1c hits with 11 Gtons of energy (4.9*10^19 J). At 0.25c, the missiles being thrown about had 55Gtons of energy. A meteorite of that energy creates a crater 8.5 miles wide, and that was only the energy from the missiles going between the ships. If a missile approached 0.5 or 0.6c, or even up towards max speed, this raises towards 300 Gton, or around 1% of Chicxulub, and of an energy level big enough to leave a crater measured in tens of miles wide, and resulting in all sorts of natural effects, from shockwaves to tsunamis to wildfires and a fireball destroying everything in its range. And thats one missile, of a smallish size compared to some of the bigger ones, and also neglects the ability to ram the ship into the planet.

Ramming the planet at 0.1c with the PNS Saladin (850,000 tons) gives the impact of Chicxulub, which happened to be strong enough to cause a global extinction event, and leave a crater over 100 miles in diameter, while hitting at 0.4c gives an impact measured at 6*10^24 Joules.


At these levels of energy, hiding is pointless. Any impact will kill everything within a very large area around it, and if allowed a few missile hits, the planet would be toast. Given this, there probably is no need for shelters, as either you win, or your planet dies.....

cthia wrote:I remember that discussion Vince.

It still seems that proper protocol would be to seek shelter. It isn't like any navy can guarantee any outcome. What if the attackers would have blown right by the defenders? Or any other mess of Murphy madness?

And certainly, now that the MAlign has introduced such stealthy ships, surely underground shelters should be the norm, if they aren't already.

Spacekiwi wrote:I think it comesdown to the speed problem. anything powered getting past is of a magnitude that renders bunkers etc moot. a single missile at 0.1c hits with 11 Gtons of energy (4.9*10^19 J). At 0.25c, the missiles being thrown about had 55Gtons of energy. A meteorite of that energy creates a crater 8.5 miles wide, and that was only the energy from the missiles going between the ships. If a missile approached 0.5 or 0.6c, or even up towards max speed, this raises towards 300 Gton, or around 1% of Chicxulub, and of an energy level big enough to leave a crater measured in tens of miles wide, and resulting in all sorts of natural effects, from shockwaves to tsunamis to wildfires and a fireball destroying everything in its range. And thats one missile, of a smallish size compared to some of the bigger ones, and also neglects the ability to ram the ship into the planet.

Ramming the planet at 0.1c with the PNS Saladin (850,000 tons) gives the impact of Chicxulub, which happened to be strong enough to cause a global extinction event, and leave a crater over 100 miles in diameter, while hitting at 0.4c gives an impact measured at 6*10^24 Joules.


At these levels of energy, hiding is pointless. Any impact will kill everything within a very large area around it, and if allowed a few missile hits, the planet would be toast. Given this, there probably is no need for shelters, as either you win, or your planet dies.....

cthia wrote:I remember that discussion Vince.

It still seems that proper protocol would be to seek shelter. It isn't like any navy can guarantee any outcome. What if the attackers would have blown right by the defenders? Or any other mess of Murphy madness?

And certainly, now that the MAlign has introduced such stealthy ships, surely underground shelters should be the norm, if they aren't already.

Of course Spacewiki.

But fallout shelters are not meant for global extinction events. They are meant for shelter-survivable events, such as orbital fallouts - as the one that took out the Black Rock clan. And for those on the fringes of the impact area that would benefit from fallout shelters, bunkers, etc. Hey, if it were just one person saved from a catastrophe because of a bunker, you'd think it was well worth it if it were you... or yours.

Hey, I remember growing up near a large military base that was certainly targeted by the USSR. As kids, they made us crouch underneath our desks. Desks!!! With all sorts of windows around us. It was not supposed to protect us from ground-zero events, but from survivable nuclear explosions on the very fringes. Hopefully.

Certainly, Miss Hearns should have been tucked away safely. As I surely hope world leaders in the Honorverse are.

JMO. YMMV - of course, if you own and drive a Veyron, like my brother, there IS no mileage. Just starting the darn thing drains the tank.

I've always been surprised, though content, that ship Captains, and the like, can sentence pirates to death and then execute them on the spot.

No formal trial of... well... formalities?

Judge, jury and executioner eh?

cthia wrote:I always wondered what happens to civilian vessels caught in-system when a surprise attack comes hypering in.

Is there like a neutral zone in each system? I wouldn't want to be caught between two opponents, missiles flying, ships and fleets maneuvering.

What is the proper protocol?

Run away, at right angles to the line between the combatants?

Oh, unquestionably are they useful.

But looking at chicxulub, they found fracture marks through 500m of rock/stone towards the edge of the crater, so even moderately deep underground ceramacrete bunkers might find themselves damaged or destroyed. Plus, no doubt they are useful at the fringe of an explosion, but in graysons case, knowing they were in a war of survival with masada, I'm guessing the realisation of if masada is close enough to bomb you already, Masada would have won, kind of rendered shelters un-necessary.


thoughts?

cthia wrote:Of course Spacewiki.

But fallout shelters are not meant for global extinction events. They are meant for shelter-survivable events, such as orbital fallouts - as the one that took out the Black Rock clan. And for those on the fringes of the impact area that would benefit from fallout shelters, bunkers, etc. Hey, if it were just one person saved from a catastrophe because of a bunker, you'd think it was well worth it if it were you... or yours.

Hey, I remember growing up near a large military base that was certainly targeted by the USSR. As kids, they made us crouch underneath our desks. Desks!!! With all sorts of windows around us. It was not supposed to protect us from ground-zero events, but from survivable nuclear explosions on the very fringes. Hopefully.

Certainly, Miss Hearns should have been tucked away safely. As I surely hope world leaders in the Honorverse are.

JMO. YMMV - of course, if you own and drive a Veyron, like my brother, there IS no mileage. Just starting the darn thing drains the tank.

cthia wrote:I've always been surprised, though content, that ship Captains, and the like, can sentence pirates to death and then execute them on the spot.

No formal trial of... well... formalities?

Judge, jury and executioner eh?

More of that Napoleonic, Age of Sail, flavor.

But just like in the age of sail, there's some practicality to it. Imagine capturing a pirate a month or more out from the closest friendly system. Safely maintaining control of the prisoners for that long is hard with only a DD's resources. (Plus it removes the DD from it's job out there while it hauls them in)


But even back then a pirate captured by the Royal Navy in the English Channel would likely be brought in for trial and public execution.

While a pirate captured months from home out in the Pacific or Indian Ocean would likely be dealt with on the spot.


Similarly I imagine pirates captured attempting to prey on ships in newly partitioned Silesia would be brought to the Manticoran or Andermandi courts in the local system for trial. But if Mike's fleet happened to catch some preying around Mesa they probably wouldn't be brought in for trial.

Jonathan_S wrote:

cthia wrote:I've always been surprised, though content, that ship Captains, and the like, can sentence pirates to death and then execute them on the spot.

No formal trial of... well... formalities?

Judge, jury and executioner eh?

More of that Napoleonic, Age of Sail, flavor.

But just like in the age of sail, there's some practicality to it. Imagine capturing a pirate a month or more out from the closest friendly system. Safely maintaining control of the prisoners for that long is hard with only a DD's resources. (Plus it removes the DD from it's job out there while it hauls them in)


But even back then a pirate captured by the Royal Navy in the English Channel would likely be brought in for trial and public execution.

While a pirate captured months from home out in the Pacific or Indian Ocean would likely be dealt with on the spot.


Similarly I imagine pirates captured attempting to prey on ships in newly partitioned Silesia would be brought to the Manticoran or Andermandi courts in the local system for trial. But if Mike's fleet happened to catch some preying around Mesa they probably wouldn't be brought in for trial.

There is no slam, bam and out the airlock trials. The RMN would hold a trial. The CO would hold a summary court-martshal with the CO serving as judge the ships legal officer as prosacuter and another officer as defense councel.

Jonathan_S wrote:

cthia wrote:I've always been surprised, though content, that ship Captains, and the like, can sentence pirates to death and then execute them on the spot.

No formal trial of... well... formalities?

Judge, jury and executioner eh?

More of that Napoleonic, Age of Sail, flavor.

But just like in the age of sail, there's some practicality to it. Imagine capturing a pirate a month or more out from the closest friendly system. Safely maintaining control of the prisoners for that long is hard with only a DD's resources. (Plus it removes the DD from it's job out there while it hauls them in)


But even back then a pirate captured by the Royal Navy in the English Channel would likely be brought in for trial and public execution.

While a pirate captured months from home out in the Pacific or Indian Ocean would likely be dealt with on the spot.


Similarly I imagine pirates captured attempting to prey on ships in newly partitioned Silesia would be brought to the Manticoran or Andermandi courts in the local system for trial. But if Mike's fleet happened to catch some preying around Mesa they probably wouldn't be brought in for trial.

saber964 wrote:There is no slam, bam and out the airlock trials. The RMN would hold a trial. The CO would hold a summary court-martshal with the CO serving as judge the ships legal officer as prosacuter and another officer as defense councel.

But the defense attorney must be a putz. Trials are supposed to be fair and impartial. His first motion should be...

A change of venue is the legal term for moving a trial to a new location. In high-profile matters, a change of venue may occur to move a jury trial away from a location where a fair and impartial jury may not be possible due to widespread publicity about a crime and its defendant(s) to another community in order to obtain jurors who can be more objective in their duties.

Everyone on the ship can be heard sharpening pitchforks. Everyone reading about the transgression, are thinking pitchforks - at the very least. Well, I am.

cthia wrote:

saber964 wrote:There is no slam, bam and out the airlock trials. The RMN would hold a trial. The CO would hold a summary court-martshal with the CO serving as judge the ships legal officer as prosacuter and another officer as defense councel.

But the defense attorney must be a putz. Trials are supposed to be fair and impartial. His first motion should be...

A change of venue is the legal term for moving a trial to a new location. In high-profile matters, a change of venue may occur to move a jury trial away from a location where a fair and impartial jury may not be possible due to widespread publicity about a crime and its defendant(s) to another community in order to obtain jurors who can be more objective in their duties.

Everyone on the ship can be heard sharpening pitchforks. Everyone reading about the transgression, are thinking pitchforks - at the very least. Well, I am.

A change to what venue though? Handing them over to local authorities may not be any better: the locals may be the pirates' victims on the one hand, or the government may be in cahoots with them on the other. Or both, for a really complicated situation. Hauling the pirates off somewhere else entirely may take too long. At least a court-martial by the capturing ship's officers means that the alleged pirates aren't being tried by victims or collaborators, and get convicted or exonerated quickly.

For that matter, the capturing ship's officers may be able to sympathize with spacers caught in an ambiguous situation. They themselves may find themselves ordered into such with grievous regularity. Commerce raiding isn't too different from piracy; it's marked off from it by adherence to the laws and customs of war and by being conducted by uniformed personnel under the authority of an established government. But naval officers know that the customs of war can get bent and broken by shady degrees; that their government may well be employing people out of uniform to do some things that they may not (quite?) want to consider straight-up piracy; and that what makes an established government and what constitutes its authority can be a mess too: witness the Havenite Civil War and competing claims to legitimacy. Looking at any accused pirate, a naval officer may easily think, "There but for the grace of favorable shades of gray go I." Or be able to say: "Nope, there's no set of unfortunate bad circumstances to get a good naval officer doing THAT without having gone right off the slippery slope - to the airlock with him."

The sort of legal practice that is consistent with justice will vary with how much legal infrastructure there is in the area. For pirates, it's a matter of crimes committed precisely where governments have only a tenuous ability to bring power to bear. That's part of the elemental nature of the crime - it's a violation of the trust that spacers must put in one another out there in the dark where civilization isn't all around in overwhelming force, but only inside the ship's hull and the minds of crew and officers. If the accused can be brought to trial, it's appropriate for other spacers to serve as their defenders, prosecutors, judges and executioners: they are exactly their peers and those of the victims, and often the only force that can stop them when they need it.

Jonathan_S wrote:

cthia wrote:I've always been surprised, though content, that ship Captains, and the like, can sentence pirates to death and then execute them on the spot.

No formal trial of... well... formalities?

Judge, jury and executioner eh?

More of that Napoleonic, Age of Sail, flavor.

But just like in the age of sail, there's some practicality to it. Imagine capturing a pirate a month or more out from the closest friendly system. Safely maintaining control of the prisoners for that long is hard with only a DD's resources. (Plus it removes the DD from it's job out there while it hauls them in)


But even back then a pirate captured by the Royal Navy in the English Channel would likely be brought in for trial and public execution.

While a pirate captured months from home out in the Pacific or Indian Ocean would likely be dealt with on the spot.


Similarly I imagine pirates captured attempting to prey on ships in newly partitioned Silesia would be brought to the Manticoran or Andermandi courts in the local system for trial. But if Mike's fleet happened to catch some preying around Mesa they probably wouldn't be brought in for trial.

To be fair, most Captains in the RMN don't rush to the death penalty immediately, unless it's a pirate they've caught before. Or the pirates in question have made the mistake of becoming notoriously vile(e.g. Warnecke's bunch or slavers who dump their 'cargo').

I suspect its primary use is as a threat to encourage pirates to be cooperative in the event of capture or an opportunity to surrender. Just because it's permitted doesn't mean it's general practice.

I imagine an execution-happy Captain would end up beached and possibly court-martialed if they couldn't justify them to the satisfaction of the Admiralty - during a state of peace. In times of war, all bets are off.

Due to the de facto extension of the Deneb Accords to SLN personnel, the RMN are going to be swamped under with Solly PoWs, which they would be required to accept regardless of any war crimes committed above and beyond the normal call of duty. Any pirates caught in the future had better hope the brigs have vacancies for them!