The Problem with Haven

Tenshinai wrote:
Nitpick, it didn´t become the "peeps" until after the legislaturists were ousted.

Nitpick ( ), it became the People's Republic when the Legislaturalists rewrote the constitution. The name change was part of the cosmetic effort to convince what was left of the electorate that the revised constitution was designed to make the political system more responsive to "the people's" needs, rather than less. Sydney Harris was the president of the People's Republic of Haven.

Otherwise, I pretty much agree with everything you and Don have said.

DarkEnigma wrote:
SNIP

I'll stipulate that Theisman was able to thoroughly clean house and remove all vestiges of the CPS. I'll also stipulate that the citizens of Haven are genuinely invested in their government this time around and are making every effort to help it work (you are in far better position than I to judge public sentiment after all). I would only point out, once again, that both the Legislaturalists and the CPS had recently (for prolong anyway) met their demises at the point of a gun. Any Manticoran analyst capable of wiping the drool off his chin is going to take note of that fact and be cautious of placing any long term bets on the fragile new Republic's longevity. A phased plan in which Haven meets some metrics of success before Manticore hands over the crown jewels seems appropriate here.

runsforcelery wrote:(3) In regard to whether or not the restored Republic under Eloise Pritchart was acting “honorably” before the resumption of hostilities and in the decision to resume hostilities itself, I would make the following points.

(a) The restored Republic had committed to allowing any star system which wished to leave the Republic to do so, and had in fact honored that pledge. They weren’t just talking the talk in this case, they were actually walking the walk, and they’d demonstrated that they were.

(b) The Pritchart Administration had been negotiating in complete good faith in its attempts to secure an actual formal treaty of peace which would officially end hostilities. As far as Pritchart was concerned, the only really “core terms” were the status of the populated once-Havenite star systems still occupied by the Manticoran Alliance. In effect, she was insisting that those populations be allowed to choose their own futures, just as she had allowed the systems which wanted to leave the Republic to do so. This happened to be something that was a serious matter of principle for both her and Thomas Theisman.

Such a matter of principle that she was willing to plunge two star nations back into war and kill hundreds of thousands of people to secure it? This, after all, is the crux of the entire matter: did Pritchart have an honorable justification to go to war.

I'll stipulate that Haven was genuinely giving stars systems they had previously taken over the choice to leave. I'll also stipulate that Haven (and Manticore) had every legal right to resume hostilities at any time, and that High Ridge was purposefully using that nominal state of war for callous political ends. However, Pritchart had to know that this situation could not last forever. At some point, High Ridge would have to hold elections and have to end the pretenses with which he was stalling negotiations.

My question is, what was so pressing about getting these systems back that Prichart had to take such an aggressive posture such as having Tom Theisman wave a huge stick under Manticore's nose (and forcing them to respond accordingly)?

Was Manticore somehow abusing their captured systems? Would it have made any difference to Haven's captured systems if Eloise had adopted a "wait and see" approach until Manticore came to its senses?

Also, as you have stated yourself, Pritchart was open to negotiating which systems were returned to Haven at all (she was entirely willing to give up on Trevor's Star for example). Which begs the question, if she held it as an article of faith that Haven's former systems deserved self-determination, why she be willing to parcel them out in penny-packets over the negotiating table ?

Finally, as I recall, it was Arnold Giancola's plan to diffuse tensions between Manticore and Haven and thus be the hero, but even he miscalculated Pritchart's bloody-mindedness. Is it at all possible that Prichart's decision to thump her chest and aggressively press Manticore over these systems was born of something less-than-honorable (such as pride, greed, or simple pique)?

When a honorable leader decides to go to war it should be because they have no other choice, but I still fail to see how Haven had no choice but to go to war.

For the sake of time, I will stipulate to the rest of your points and concede that, once active hostilities resumed, Haven acted honorably. However, I wonder if you would be willing to answer a question that has been nagging me since it doesn't seem to jibe with my assessment of Elizabeth's character: Why did Elizabeth not push for total victory during Buttercup or after the Battle of Manticore?

P.S. Many people have up the fact that Elizabeth had Treecat lie detectors. This is true, however a Treecat can only tell you if a particular person is being truthful at this particular moment. They cannot vouch for that persons future actions especially if that person is only one part of a much larger polity.

You and I are going to have to agree to disagree on whether or not Eloise Pritchart was motivated by “pride, greed, or simple pique.” I put you inside her head while she was debating these issues. I think, therefore, that you can take it as a given that the reasons I gave you for why she did what she did are the reasons that she did what she did.

You say “When a honorable leader decides to go to war it should be because they have no other choice, but I still fail to see how Haven had no choice but to go to war.” So as I understand what you’re saying here, unless Manticore actually dispatched fleets to resume the military offensive against the Republic of Haven, Eloise always had another choice. The fact that Manticore was refusing to negotiate meaningfully, that Manticore was refusing to even discuss returning occupied territory, that Manticore had a decisive technological edge if it did decide to resume hostilities, that Manticore had (belatedly) resumed construction of the additional capital ships which would have given it back the decisive military advantage within six months, that Manticore didn’t change its negotiating stance a single millimeter at the same time that it reactivated its construction programs, and that the current Manticoran government was clearly falsifying the diplomatic correspondence passing back and forth between it and the Republic, didn’t constitute a situation in which she had a right to believe that she had “no other choice” but to resume hostilities — in an existing, ongoing war where no final peace settlement had even been provisionally accepted by the other side — if she was going to procure a final peace settlement that recognized the core objectives of the Republic and gave it the opportunity to get out from under a Manticoran Sword of Damocles?

Manticore posed an existential threat to the restored Republic because it had steadfastly refused to allow the war to be settled — settled on terms which Pritchart recognized were not going to be 100% satisfactory to the Republic, which had been defeated — and because its technology and general war-fighting capability remained superior to the Republic’s. Pritchart was dealing with a regime which she knew was dishonest, unscrupulous, and corrupt, and she’d seen plenty of evidence during her own lifetime in the People’s Republic of Haven of what unscrupulous and corrupt politicians were willing to do in terms of finding external threats to bolster their domestic political position. She had to know that at least until the High Ridge Government discovered the existence of Theisman’s rebuilt Battle Fleet, High Ridge would have been prepared to launch a “short, victorious war” against the Republic any time he felt his domestic position crumbling. Whether or not he could have gotten away with that is another question, but certainly nothing that she’d seen out of Elizabeth Winton suggested that Elizabeth wouldn’t (justifiably, in large part) have gotten behind a resumption of hostilities, whatever High Ridge’s motivation for embracing them, and pushed.

Eloise and people like Javier Giscard, Thomas Theisman, and the other members of her cabinet had paid in blood — in some cases for decades — to get to where they were, with the restored constitution and the restored Republic. The refusal of the High Ridge Government to deal with the newly restored Republic honestly — or even to deal with it at all — and the continued existence of a declared state of war (declared by Manticore against the Legislaturalists regime and continued against the Committee of Public Safety and sustained against the restored Republic) presented a direct military threat to Haven. The fact that Manticore continued to occupy Havenite territory which contained Havenite citizens was a very high moral factor on her part, as well.

You are completely missing the point about Trevor’s Star and Pritchart’s willingness to negotiate which systems were returned to the Republic. She wasn’t especially concerned about regaining uninhabited star systems, and in the case of Trevor’s Star, the self-determining elections — which was all she was really demanding for the other occupied inhabited systems — had already been held under a previous Manticoran government (Cromarty's) which she had every reason to believe had been honest. Now Manticore — in the form of the High Ridge Government (which she had every reason to believe was as corrupt and dishonest as the Cromarty Government had been honest) — was refusing to allow the citizens of those occupied star systems any say as to what star nation (if any) they would belong to in the future. She wanted them back so that they could have that vote, and she also wanted that vote held before the Star Kingdom had time to change the history on the ground if that was what the SKM had in mind. And I would submit to you that she had plenty of reason to worry about whether or not the High Ridge Government was conniving at creating the same sort of "protectorates" out of those star systems as the Solarian League had been creating for many decades.

At the time that all of this is going on, Manticore is occupying half of Silesia (which it has turned into a protectorate and for which it has announced plans — eventually — to hold plebiscites in which systems may “choose” to join the Star Empire of Manticore) and simultaneously is in the process of annexing the Talbott Quadrant. Eloise has never met Elizabeth Winton. She is seeing the Star Empire’s policies and actions through the lens of the next best thing to two decades of active warfare and the “voluntary annexations” of numerous star systems (some of which she has just allowed to secede from the Republic) by the People’s Republic, plus the imperialist policies of the Office of Frontier Security on the part of the Solarian League. She is totally justified in assuming in the absence of any evidence of High Ridge’s willingness to surrender possession of the occupied planets that he, at least (and, by implication, the rest of the Star Empire), has no intention whatsoever of ever allowing them self-determination. Trevor’s Star exercised its right of self-determination in elections which were very open and where the final vote was overwhelmingly in favor of seeking membership in the Star Kingdom. There was no question in Eloise’s mind that that vote had been fair and open. There was also no question in anyone’s mind that the High Ridge Government had completely prohibited any similar votes for any other occupied Havenite system. So, yes, she was perfectly willing to give Trevor’s Star back. In fact, in many ways she saw Trevor’s Star as the trading token for getting the other previously Havenite occupied systems out from under the Manties at least long enough for them to vote, and she took the principle of self-determination by all systems which had been occupied/conquered by the People’s Republic very, very seriously. It was part of the Aprilists’ basic platform, and she’d never backed off from or renounced that requirement.

If you don’t already understand why Elizabeth didn’t “push for total victory during Buttercup or after the Battle of Manticore” after reading the books, I don’t think it’s possible for me to explain it to you, but I'll give it one more try.

Operation Buttercup was a push for “total victory,” and one to which Elizabeth Winton had given the last thirty-plus years of her life. It was within her grasp. Then Esther McQueen killed Rob Pierre, Oscar Saint-Just killed the Duke of Cromarty (beheading the Cromarty Government and the coalition of personal alliances he’d built up to prosecute the war), and the High Ridge Government accepted Saint-Just’s offer of a cease-fire and negotiations. Now, in theory, Elizabeth could have overruled High Ridge and the Janacek Admiralty and insisted on continuing hostilities. To do so, however, would have precipitated a domestic constitutional crisis in which she might or might not have prevailed. People have made a big deal out of Elizabeth’s ability to carry a grudge and be governed by her “temper from hell,” but the truth is that if you go back and look at her decisions, she has consistently accepted pragmatic limitations on what she could do at any given moment unless she believed the fundamental security and survival of the Star Kingdom/Star Empire were at risk.

In the wake of operation Buttercup, that was clearly not the case. In the immediate aftermath of the cease-fire, the Star Kingdom’s military position was one of unassailable superiority. The People’s Republic was fragmenting in the process of Thomas Theisman and Eloise Pritchart's final overthrow of the Committee of Public Safety and restoration of the old Constitution. Theisman was already facing the first stirrings of the multi-sited civil war he was going to fight in defense of that restored Constitution. Until Theisman revealed the existence of his own fleet of SD(P)s, Manticore could have defeated/destroyed the entire Republic of Haven navy anytime it chose, and that was true despite the High Ridge/Janacek build down of the RMN. That entire calculus changed when Theisman and Pritchart announced the existence of their own pod-layers in large numbers, but it was certainly true immediately after Buttercup, which meant that she couldn't justify tearing the Manticoran constitution part on the basis of clear military necessity.

Elizabeth faced a thorny domestic political situation, one in which the fundamental structure and balance of power between the aristocracy in the form of the House of Lords and the Crown and House of Commons would ultimately be determined, with far-reaching political consequences. At the same time, the crippled Republic of Haven presented no immediate threat to the Star Kingdom. And, while that was true, she was confronted by a new government in Nouveau Paris under the restored constitution which appeared genuinely committed to dismantling the old People’s Republic as thoroughly as Manticore ever could have. It was her opinion (correctly, as it proved) that eventually High Ridge would encompass his own political destruction and give her and William Alexander and their political allies the opportunity to cut his legs out from under him and fundamentally reform the power balance in the Star Kingdom’s Parliament. At the same time, she clearly had a window in which to allow that process to mature because the Republic of Haven posed no military threat to the RMN. And, finally, she was — despite her allegedly irrational hatred of all things Havenite — prepared to listen to advisors like Honor Harrington who suggested that what was happening inside the Republic would create a genuinely different star nation without the necessity of killing bunches of more people along the way.

When the Republic resumed active military operations, her faith in the difference between Pritchart and the Legislaturalists or Pierre and/or Saint-Just took a heavy hit. That was particularly true given the fact that she knew for an absolute fact that the diplomatic correspondence being published by the Pritchart Administration had been falsified. Moreover, she was forced once more into the “back against the wall” attitude of the early months of the First Havenite War after the RMN’s initial defeats and the discovery of just how big and just how powerful Theisman’s rebuilt navy truly was. When the Star Empire had fought its way back to a situation approaching military parity, and in the knowledge that Apollo was rapidly nearing deployability, she agreed to peace talks with Pritchart (despite her deep suspicion of Pritchart’s actual motives) until the Mesan Alignment-engineered murder of her ambassador to the Solarian League and attempted assassination of Queen Berry and Elizabeth’s own niece punched every — and I mean every — emotional button she had. At that point, she resumed hostilities — against Honor and Hamish’s advice — and the result was the Battle of Manticore. Even someone named “Soul of Steel” could be excused for feeling just a bit shaken after a battle of that intensity fought in her own home star system. She couldn’t dispatch an immediate Apollo-equipped strike against the Haven System without uncovering the Manticoran home system, because Eighth Fleet was really just about all of the surviving RMN Battle Fleet and Haven possessed enough residual combat power to get in and devastate the Manticore Binary System if Eighth Fleet was withdrawn. By the time there were sufficient Apollo-based defenses in place (in the form of deployed system defense missiles) for her to release a significant portion of Eighth Fleet/Home Fleet for offensive operations, Honor had been given enough time to work on her to convince her to take another chance on negotiations, as long as she negotiated on her own terms, with no opportunity for Haven to take advantage of the cease-fire or spin the negotiations out from their side the way High Ridge had spun them out from his side prior to the resumption of hostilities.

All of this was covered at one point or another in the books, although the process of Elizabeth grudgingly accepting that Theisman/Pritchart might be different from Harris/Pierre/Saint-Just and then reverting to “because they’re Peeps” as the justification for believing Haven was responsible for the Webster assassination on Old Earth and the attack on Queen Berry and Princess Ruth on Torch that sabotaged the peace talks, wasn’t done in a “look inside her head” fashion. I thought it was pretty darned clearly implied, however.

As I say, if you don’t understand how that worked — or if you don’t except but that’s how it worked — there’s not really much point in anyone arguing with you, because I think it’s pretty clear and totally consistent with everything you’ve seen of Elizabeth Winton’s character.


As far as the treecats' ability to testify as to Pritchart and Theisman's personalities and truthfulness, you are quite correct that these are only a very tiny handful of individuals, not an entire interstellar polity, and that political climates can obviously change. I've already explained to you why it is exceedingly unlikely, at the very least, that relations between the Star Empire and the Republic are going to go disastrously into the crapper after everything they have now been through as allies against a clearly identified common enemy who they believe was responsible for the initial overthrow of the original Havenite constitution and effectively all of the bloodshed and destruction of the Havenite Wars. That may not seem sufficient for you; it does seem sufficient for Elizabeth and Eloise. Beyond that, what can I tell you?

Very well. I yield. You have the field sir.

I'm surprised that the 'occupation' of Siliea had an impact of Pritchart thinking as this event didn't occur till after "Operation Thunderbolt" as Alexander said, "we need the manpower to fight back"

Pritchart could have easily have stopped Arnold Giancola's from manipulate the correspondence by
a - ensuring she personally saw the final version of the correspondence being sent (a procreative of the president)
b - hand picking the representative on Manticore (i.e. a friend of hers not Arnold Giancola's) (and possible calling home this person once she realised (though not checking first was just stupid)).
c - ensuring that organisation responsible for the safety of Arnold Giancola's (Secretary for State) was not the same as the one who to ensure the Secretary for State was loyal (which I would have though would have been better placed with Kevin Usher's FIA, to ensure that 'divided loyalties' didn't occur).
d - Removing Arnold Giancola's from office once it became clear he was breaking his oath to the Republic (and weathered the political storm, though I understand her reasons for not doing so)
d part 1 - Keeping a closer eye on him, especially with regards to his deals with the Andies (especially when they came out and said "we agree (our intelligence agency confirms that) HAVEN manipulated the diplomatic correspondence, also they stated that they had no active military forces in Silia (had no plans to resume the offensive) and hey look they did) (though the cold blood split of Silia between the SKM and the Andies is mentioned on Haven, the Andies agreement to enter the war is oddly missing).

e - the other part I have never got, is how can Haven claim sovereignty over annexed star systems. Surely (legally if nothing else) they are independent star systems under Havenite Occupation (even if its been decades). If she truly believed that they should have self determination, surely she should have order the withdrawal of all Haven military assets and left the star systems to get on with it?

Garth 2 wrote:I'm surprised that the 'occupation' of Siliea had an impact of Pritchart thinking as this event didn't occur till after "Operation Thunderbolt" as Alexander said, "we need the manpower to fight back"

Pritchart could have easily have stopped Arnold Giancola's from manipulate the correspondence by
a - ensuring she personally saw the final version of the correspondence being sent (a procreative of the president)

I believe she she did do that, she was rather specific in wording of at least one of them, the second last I believe.

Garth 2 wrote:b - hand picking the representative on Manticore (i.e. a friend of hers not Arnold Giancola's) (and possible calling home this person once she realised (though not checking first was just stupid)).

Could not have happened, the picking of a representative on this level would have been the decision of the State Secretary. Given the sensitivity of the post she might have been justified in challanging it she might not have been able to pull it off

Garth 2 wrote:c - ensuring that organisation responsible for the safety of Arnold Giancola's (Secretary for State) was not the same as the one who to ensure the Secretary for State was loyal (which I would have though would have been better placed with Kevin Usher's FIA, to ensure that 'divided loyalties' didn't occur).

Giancola was a political appointee, do I have to spell out how bad an idea this would have been? Or how quickly it would how returned a report telling her not to trust him?

Garth 2 wrote:d - Removing Arnold Giancola's from office once it became clear he was breaking his oath to the Republic (and weathered the political storm, though I understand her reasons for not doing so)

Again political appointee, not going to happen

Garth 2 wrote:d part 1 - Keeping a closer eye on him, especially with regards to his deals with the Andies (especially when they came out and said "we agree (our intelligence agency confirms that) HAVEN manipulated the diplomatic correspondence, also they stated that they had no active military forces in Silia (had no plans to resume the offensive) and hey look they did) (though the cold blood split of Silia between the SKM and the Andies is mentioned on Haven, the Andies agreement to enter the war is oddly missing).

Did he even over step his bounds here?

Garth 2 wrote:e - the other part I have never got, is how can Haven claim sovereignty over annexed star systems. Surely (legally if nothing else) they are independent star systems under Havenite Occupation (even if its been decades). If she truly believed that they should have self determination, surely she should have order the withdrawal of all Haven military assets and left the star systems to get on with it?

[/quote]
What are you talking about? Annexation is how something becomes part of something else, legally.

Garth 2 wrote:I'm surprised that the 'occupation' of Siliea had an impact of Pritchart thinking as this event didn't occur till after "Operation Thunderbolt" as Alexander said, "we need the manpower to fight back"

Pritchart could have easily have stopped Arnold Giancola's from manipulate the correspondence by
a - ensuring she personally saw the final version of the correspondence being sent (a procreative of the president)

She did see the final message; she helped wright it. Then she gave it to her SecState to send it to the Manties. As it was his job to do.

Garth 2 wrote: b - hand picking the representative on Manticore (i.e. a friend of hers not Arnold Giancola's) (and possible calling home this person once she realised (though not checking first was just stupid)).

To do that would undermine his position as SecState, and considering that she didn't like him, she had to give him more room that she could have of one of her friends.

Garth 2 wrote: c - ensuring that organisation responsible for the safety of Arnold Giancola's (Secretary for State) was not the same as the one who to ensure the Secretary for State was loyal (which I would have though would have been better placed with Kevin Usher's FIA, to ensure that 'divided loyalties' didn't occur).

Even if the people were from the same organization, they would not have been the same people. Unless the head of the organization was loyal to him over Prichart, it really doesn't matter if the grunts on the street like him.

Garth 2 wrote: d - Removing Arnold Giancola's from office once it became clear he was breaking his oath to the Republic (and weathered the political storm, though I understand her reasons for not doing so)

Wasn't the part when she had proof that he was doing something untoward very close in timing with his death? It would have been a major fight to get him out of office against his will without proof. A fight her nation might not have survived.

Garth 2 wrote:d part 1 - Keeping a closer eye on him, especially with regards to his deals with the Andies (especially when they came out and said "we agree (our intelligence agency confirms that) HAVEN manipulated the diplomatic correspondence, also they stated that they had no active military forces in Silia (had no plans to resume the offensive) and hey look they did) (though the cold blood split of Silia between the SKM and the Andies is mentioned on Haven, the Andies agreement to enter the war is oddly missing).

Again, dealing with foreign nations is explicitly the the reason form having a secretary of state. What reason did she have to keep this closer eye, aside from a general lack of trust of the man? Also, this should be part 2 as the last paragraph was the first part.

Garth 2 wrote: e - the other part I have never got, is how can Haven claim sovereignty over annexed star systems. Surely (legally if nothing else) they are independent star systems under Havenite Occupation (even if its been decades). If she truly believed that they should have self determination, surely she should have order the withdrawal of all Haven military assets and left the star systems to get on with it?

I am pretty sure that, after they were invaded, they voluntarily requested to join in the People's Republic. And even if they didn't, the Peoples Quorum could, as the legislative body of the PRH, could easily pass legislation fully annexing any occupied system, even against the wishes of the locals. As with most international "law," it basically comes down to who has enough force to say what the law is. If they have an SD squadron in orbit of a planet, basicly, the planet is in whatever status they say it is in.

I'm sure they "voluntarily" requested annexation. And yeah, if you militarily control a system it's yours until you decide to give it up or someone forces you to give it up. Your behavior may fail to comply with certain treaties you solemnly signed, but until someone shows up with a bunch of guys with guns to make you comply, it's just words on paper.

Garth 2 wrote:I'm surprised that the 'occupation' of Siliea had an impact of Pritchart thinking as this event didn't occur till after "Operation Thunderbolt" as Alexander said, "we need the manpower to fight back"

Pritchart could have easily have stopped Arnold Giancola's from manipulate the correspondence by
a - ensuring she personally saw the final version of the correspondence being sent (a procreative of the president)
b - hand picking the representative on Manticore (i.e. a friend of hers not Arnold Giancola's) (and possible calling home this person once she realised (though not checking first was just stupid)).
c - ensuring that organisation responsible for the safety of Arnold Giancola's (Secretary for State) was not the same as the one who to ensure the Secretary for State was loyal (which I would have though would have been better placed with Kevin Usher's FIA, to ensure that 'divided loyalties' didn't occur).
d - Removing Arnold Giancola's from office once it became clear he was breaking his oath to the Republic (and weathered the political storm, though I understand her reasons for not doing so)
d part 1 - Keeping a closer eye on him, especially with regards to his deals with the Andies (especially when they came out and said "we agree (our intelligence agency confirms that) HAVEN manipulated the diplomatic correspondence, also they stated that they had no active military forces in Silia (had no plans to resume the offensive) and hey look they did) (though the cold blood split of Silia between the SKM and the Andies is mentioned on Haven, the Andies agreement to enter the war is oddly missing).

e - the other part I have never got, is how can Haven claim sovereignty over annexed star systems. Surely (legally if nothing else) they are independent star systems under Havenite Occupation (even if its been decades). If she truly believed that they should have self determination, surely she should have order the withdrawal of all Haven military assets and left the star systems to get on with it?

Your point about Silesia is well taken. I wrote the book the next best thing to ten years ago and I was writing from memory and failed to check the chronology. My points about the Talbott Quadrant and the occupied star systems remain.


In response to your other points.

a. She did see the final version. What part of the scenes in Nouveau Paris from War of Honor and At All Costs did you miss? It was left to Giancola to transmit that final, authorized version, and he altered it after she had seen and approved the final draft. What? You expect the Secretary of state to "cc" the President electronically on the actual document transmitted when she's already seen, discussed, and authorized every single word of it?

b. I'm not certain what you mean about calling him home "once she realized." Realized what? She was seeing all the correspondence, incoming and outgoing, and there was nothing in it to suggest that Giancola and his buddy were doing anything other than exactly what she and her cabinet had agreed they ought to be doing. Grosclaude wasn't on Manticore all alone; he was the head of an entire diplomatic mission, many of whose staff members were far from Giancola partisans. Nothing any of them were reporting contradicted what she was seeing of the correspondence. They had no more reason than she did to suspect that what she was seeing had been altered by Giancola after it left Manticore (where they'd probably had a hand in writing it in the first place) and before she saw it, so they had no reason to "correct the record." For that matter, given High Ridge and Delacroix's approach to diplomacy, there wasn't much --- aside from the exact wording of the various diplomatic cables --- that would have needed correction.

c. Again, I don't understand what you mean. She should have altered the government to put Usher in charge of Giancola's internal security? As the head of the FIA, he was responsible for detecting and defeating foreign efforts to compromise the State Department's security, and one is generally fairly safe in assuming that the Secretary of State himself is not a spy and not a traitor. The State Department has its own internal security specialists, just as the US Department of State does, who are fully familiar with the security needs and requirements of their own agency, which the FIA isn't. Nesbitt, Giancola's co-conspirator, was in a position to assist Giancola because he was a part of that security force. Until there was some evidence that security had, in fact, been breached (which there was not, until Usher grew suspicious enough to launch a completely "black" investigation), there was no conceivable reason for Pritchart to alter the existing security arrangements and organs.

d. At what point prior to Usher's black investigation did it become "clear he was breaking his oath of office"? There was no evidence of any such thing until after hostilities had resumed. If you mean after it became clear to her and Usher that he was the one who'd altered the diplomatic correspondence, she was in no position to prove her suspicions at that time --- which was precisely why she commissioned Usher to continue his investigation in search of that proof. She went through all of the political and legal reasons she couldn't just go ahead and fire him at that point in the book, and I see no reason to recap them now. I will add only that the Secretary of State and the Department of State had become irrelevant to the conduct of the war until such time as she managed to reopen negotiations with Manticore, which meant he was in no position to do additional damage, especially now that she knew to keep an eye on him and not trust him as far as she could spit upwind in a hurricane. Far better to keep him exactly where he was, unaware of the investigation hopefully closing in on him, rather than alert him that he was in trouble and possibly provoke the political and constitutional crises she was afraid of by moving before she had proof. She had no reason to expect him to be killed in an air-car accident before the investigation was completed, and I think it's clear that when the investigation was completed, she had every intention of going public and letting the chips fall where they might.

I have no idea at all what you're saying in "d part 1," I'm afraid.

e. Okay, she did withdraw all Havenite military forces from every single inhabited system which said it wanted to leave the Republic. All of those "Haven-occupied" star systems had legally become member systems of the PRH. They were legally incorporated into it, they had local governments which were part of the PRH, etc. Now, there might have been a "system government in exile" somewhere, or there might have been intense local opposition to becoming and remaining a part of the PRH, but the institutions, the political system, and the laws were all in place to make them integral parts of the PRH.

I never said Pritchart favored a complete dissolution of the Republic and some sort of return to the status quo pre-1864. Had that been the decision of all of the member systems, she would have accepted it, but I never indicated that that was what she wanted or what she thought would be the ideal solution or outcome. However it came into existence, the interstellar RoH existed as the second largest start nation in the galaxy. Not everyone wanted to leave it, however they'd joined it, and she had extended the protections of the Havenite Constitution to all of its new citizens. There were deep, existing economic, political, and social bonds holding the Republish together, whether or not everyone was happy about how they'd come to exist, and she was prepared to allow every single star system in it to decide whether it wanted to maintain those bonds (under the restored constitution) or dissolve them. Now, in the period when Theisman was fighting his wars against the SS warlords, she wasn't about to start holding plebiscites, if for no other reason than that withdrawing her forces from any one of those star systems would only have painted a big, bright target on it for the warlords. As soon as the fighting was over however, the plebiscites were held . . . and they were organized while the fighting was still ongoing.

If you expected her to do more than that, then I think your expectations were not only unrealistic but unreasonable.

Wasn't the part when she had proof that he was doing something untoward very close in timing with his death? It would have been a major fight to get him out of office against his will without proof. A fight her nation might not have survived.

And unless i misrecall, there was NEVER solid proof that would hold up as legal evidence.

SWM wrote:Yes, as a matter of fact, Haven DID return it's own conquests back to their own governments if they voted to do so. Pritchart set up elections on all of the systems under their control, and allowed any that voted to leave the newly re-established Republic of Haven to become independent. And Pritchart was not demanding that Manticore turn it's conquests over to Haven; Pritchart was demanding that Manticore allow it's conquests to have exactly the same vote on whether to be part of the Republic of Haven that Haven's other systems already had been given.

I thought Pritchart's initial position was that the conquests be turned over long enough that Haven could supervise their independence votes (like they'd done for other systems).

(And RFC's post earlier today seems to be consistent with that)

That said, I doubt that full control of that vote would have been a major sticking point in negotiations. In fact I assume it was a position designed for potential compromise as the negotiations went on.


Haven should have been happy to settle on any formula that gave them assurance that those systems were getting a free, unmanipulated, and non-fraudulent vote on their self-determination. And that minimal goal could be achieved a lot of ways (mixes of who was providing security and who was observing the vote to look for irregularities or fraud), subject to mutually agreeable negotiations. (Assuming of course that real negotiations ever managed to start)