Honorverse ramblings and musings

Jonathan_S wrote:

cthia wrote:Forgive Johnny come lately if this has already been discussed.

IIRC, in a Short Victorious War, Haven's financial problems were all laid out. It was determined that they had to maintain their MO of expansionists. It was determined it was imperative to their economy. I didn't get the feeling that the expense of war was at the center of those financial problems, but was a result of those problems.

What has changed that Haven's financial problems has gone away, to prevent them from having to go back to business as usual?

That was covered somewhat in the books.
What was killing their economy was a huge number of people on government support ("the dole", "dolists") not contributing to the economy but taking money from the treasury.

But one good side effect of Cordelia Ransom's PR bullshit was to motivate large numbers of them back to work to fight the "rapacious" "imperialist" Manties. (Ironically if enough had been inspired to do that before the war, they wouldn't have needed the war). Making a big impact on the unemployment rate - years of war spending - would help a lot of their problems.


Then also, some of the marginal systems may have withdrawn from the restored Republic under the type of plebiscites that Pritchart was planning to hold in the occupied systems, once a peace treaty got Manticore to pull out of them.

Thanks Jonathan. I suppose now that Manticore is dependent on Haven for construction, they stand to earn a pretty credit there.

cthia wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:That was covered somewhat in the books.
What was killing their economy was a huge number of people on government support ("the dole", "dolists") not contributing to the economy but taking money from the treasury.

But one good side effect of Cordelia Ransom's PR bullshit was to motivate large numbers of them back to work to fight the "rapacious" "imperialist" Manties. (Ironically if enough had been inspired to do that before the war, they wouldn't have needed the war). Making a big impact on the unemployment rate - years of war spending - would help a lot of their problems.


Then also, some of the marginal systems may have withdrawn from the restored Republic under the type of plebiscites that Pritchart was planning to hold in the occupied systems, once a peace treaty got Manticore to pull out of them.

Thanks Jonathan. I suppose now that Manticore is dependent on Haven for construction, they stand to earn a pretty credit there.

Yep. Plus there are all those Manticoran merchant hulls looking for products to haul, and new non-League trade routes to pioneer. Haven might get a nice economic boost from increased trade - in addition to the direct Manticoran military spending you mentioned.

cthia wrote:Thanks Jonathan. I suppose now that Manticore is dependent on Haven for construction, they stand to earn a pretty credit there.

If they had some way of paying. But since they lost a decade plus GSP when it all blowed up, I don't see how that is going to work out.

kzt wrote:

cthia wrote:Thanks Jonathan. I suppose now that Manticore is dependent on Haven for construction, they stand to earn a pretty credit there.

If they had some way of paying. But since they lost a decade plus GSP when it all blowed up, I don't see how that is going to work out.

Handwavium, kzt, handwavium. Never let economics get in the way of a good story...

Don

Curious, what is the status of Masada? Is it just destined to fade into obscurity? Is there textev of Masada trading with other systems? I can't imagine anyone being able to stomach them for very long. I can't imagine Masada wanting any spiritually tainted goods from an infidel system, which implies that they are self sufficient?

One of my Romanian friends mentioned that Beowulf may be seeing an influx of people seeking citizenship. Vlad opines that ex-sex slaves may choose to continue in the sex business, but for themselves. I never considered that. It is certainly possible, and the profession is an honest profession. Especially on Beowulf. And I would expect that Beowulf would welcome them either way.

cthia wrote:Curious, what is the status of Masada? Is it just destined to fade into obscurity? Is there textev of Masada trading with other systems? I can't imagine anyone being able to stomach them for very long. I can't imagine Masada wanting any spiritually tainted goods from an infidel system, which implies that they are self sufficient?

One of my Romanian friends mentioned that Beowulf may be seeing an influx of people seeking citizenship. Vlad opines that ex-sex slaves may choose to continue in the sex business, but for themselves. I never considered that. It is certainly possible, and the profession is an honest profession. Especially on Beowulf. And I would expect that Beowulf would welcome them either way.

We have no information about Masada since Mercedes Brigham described her time serving in the Endicott occupation forces (text in FiE).

cthia wrote:Curious, what is the status of Masada? Is it just destined to fade into obscurity? Is there textev of Masada trading with other systems? I can't imagine anyone being able to stomach them for very long. I can't imagine Masada wanting any spiritually tainted goods from an infidel system, which implies that they are self sufficient?

The POV of the ship captain who fired the homing drones against The Queen and Protector referenced mutual trade programs that brought his sub light ore freighter to Grayson to haul ore to Blackbird Yards. There is the implication that that arrangement was just one of many attempts to integrate a reformed Masada into interstellar trade.

There is also a strong suggestion that there is a split personality to Masada; the secret society of the Elders and their jihadi mentality and the more progressive main government and majority population. Our viewpoint is skewed because we only see the Templetons and jihadis and we don't see the majority population's struggles to throw off the fundamentalist dogma and develop a rational society.

Weird Harold wrote:There is also a strong suggestion that there is a split personality to Masada; the secret society of the Elders and their jihadi mentality and the more progressive main government and majority population. Our viewpoint is skewed because we only see the Templetons and jihadis and we don't see the majority population's struggles to throw off the fundamentalist dogma and develop a rational society.

I'd say that majority population itself is probably split into a couple factions.

There are some genuine progressives, the sort represented at one extreme at least (and in very few numbers) by the Sisterhood of Barbara, the secret organization of which Judith Winton was a member. How many of them there may be can't be easy to tell - I'm sure it's still very, very dangerous to be public about your total rejection of Masadan traditions.

And then there are people out of a Masadan background and into an uncertain future - people who may not have kicked Masadan traditions out of their heads entirely, but who are at least considering the kinds of thinking represented by the Manticoran occupiers and/or pretending well and not too terribly committed to retaining something else in their heart of hearts.

Alternatively: you've got a Masadan right, center, and left, and many people in the nominal center may be rightists or leftists for all anyone else can tell or is allowed to tell. What we see - apart from the Sisterhood of Barbara and since then - is mostly the open or revealed violent right.

SWM wrote:

cthia wrote:Curious, what is the status of Masada? Is it just destined to fade into obscurity? Is there textev of Masada trading with other systems? I can't imagine anyone being able to stomach them for very long. I can't imagine Masada wanting any spiritually tainted goods from an infidel system, which implies that they are self sufficient?

One of my Romanian friends mentioned that Beowulf may be seeing an influx of people seeking citizenship. Vlad opines that ex-sex slaves may choose to continue in the sex business, but for themselves. I never considered that. It is certainly possible, and the profession is an honest profession. Especially on Beowulf. And I would expect that Beowulf would welcome them either way.

We have no information about Masada since Mercedes Brigham described her time serving in the Endicott occupation forces (text in FiE).

There is some more info in Obligated Service

SWM wrote:

cthia wrote:Curious, what is the status of Masada? Is it just destined to fade into obscurity? Is there textev of Masada trading with other systems? I can't imagine anyone being able to stomach them for very long. I can't imagine Masada wanting any spiritually tainted goods from an infidel system, which implies that they are self sufficient?

One of my Romanian friends mentioned that Beowulf may be seeing an influx of people seeking citizenship. Vlad opines that ex-sex slaves may choose to continue in the sex business, but for themselves. I never considered that. It is certainly possible, and the profession is an honest profession. Especially on Beowulf. And I would expect that Beowulf would welcome them either way.

We have no information about Masada since Mercedes Brigham described her time serving in the Endicott occupation forces (text in FiE).

saber964 wrote:There is some more info in Obligated Service

I would be very surprised if some Masadans will not wish to return to Grayson.