[Spoiler - UH] utube snippet

cthia wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:Not exactly. Leonard Detweiler left Beowuf to colonize Mesa with "like minded" people. There were several hundred, or so, people working on the dangerous side of the "genetic fence."

I'm sure that there were even more "like-minded" immigrants over the years since Mesa was colonized.

Over the centuries, enough outside DNA has been imported into "improving" the Detweiler genome that Leonard, himself, probably would qualify as a "Detweiler" by current LRPB standards.

You're not thinking like an ONI agent. At least not like a Manty ONI agent, vested by Pat Givens.

Detweiler and the number of people known to be dabbling in the black arts is just one filter. And that one filter has already reduced the "persons of interest" to simply "several hundred" as you say? Out of billions scattered about the Honorverse. What a helluva first filter for a fine first step.

Then, the next filter would be financial background checks. An operation of this magnitude has deep pockets. That fact should be obvious even to idiots like the Solarians. It was obvious to Harahap, who deduced as much in the available info dump. And if Harahap can put these things together, so can RMN intelligence. How many of the several hundred people capable of that kind of intelligence also has the same cavernous bank accounts?

Also, the nanites themselves are technology that can be analyzed if a sample can be acquired.

"Cross reference your findings with everyone who wore green underwear on Friday." That's the intel probably available on some planets -- like the shockingly unfathomable, privacy forfeited planets out on the "Verge of Way Beyond."*

Now, to be sure. Detweiler would have covered his financial tracks. BUT! None of the other "persons of interest" even remotely, have the depth of pockets needed to feed this hidden entity. BUT AGAIN! Where are the Detweilers who were known to also dabble in the black arts? They were the number one name in the old days, when the feud originally began between Leonard and Beowulf.

That makes three, three filters that ONI inexperienced cthia has come up with. I'm certain Pat Givens would use many more different types of filters to reduce the playing field. (I could state what some of those might be, but then I'll have to kill some of you, since rank hath its privileges. LOL)

*We've seen glimpses of these computers on tv...

"Now cross-reference X with XY."

"That's a hit sir! That narrows down the possibilities to simply 4 outfits. Two of them are ours."

I HAVE had a bit of experience in that area (granted it was 50 years ago) and you are right. Even more to the point, Zilwicki and Cachat have noted that Manpower and, indeed, Mesa do not act like a regular corporation. They know that something is fishy with Manpower in terms of behavior.

They will be looking at data on Mesa and will probably have help from some Mesans...like Harahap. Once directed properly, they can learn a lot.

Also, there were non-Detweilers doing genetics. Call Manpower.
And a lot of work was being done on a lot of settled planets including Beowulf.

Weird Harold wrote:Not exactly. Leonard Detweiler left Beowuf to colonize Mesa with "like minded" people. There were several hundred, or so, people working on the dangerous side of the "genetic fence."

I'm sure that there were even more "like-minded" immigrants over the years since Mesa was colonized.

Over the centuries, enough outside DNA has been imported into "improving" the Detweiler genome that Leonard, himself, probably would qualify as a "Detweiler" by current LRPB standards.

They have time travel? Your comment makes no sense.

cthia wrote:You're not thinking like an ONI agent. At least not like a Manty ONI agent, vested by Pat Givens.

Detweiler and the number of people known to be dabbling in the black arts is just one filter. And that one filter has already reduced the "persons of interest" to simply "several hundred" as you say? Out of billions scattered about the Honorverse. What a helluva first filter for a fine first step.

Then, the next filter would be financial background checks. An operation of this magnitude has deep pockets. That fact should be obvious even to idiots like the Solarians. It was obvious to Harahap, who deduced as much in the available info dump. And if Harahap can put these things together, so can RMN intelligence. How many of the several hundred people capable of that kind of intelligence also has the same cavernous bank accounts?

Also, the nanites themselves are technology that can be analyzed if a sample can be acquired.

"Cross reference your findings with everyone who wore green underwear on Friday." That's the intel probably available on some planets -- like the shockingly unfathomable, privacy forfeited planets out on the "Verge of Way Beyond."*

Now, to be sure. Detweiler would have covered his financial tracks. BUT! None of the other "persons of interest" even remotely, have the depth of pockets needed to feed this hidden entity. BUT AGAIN! Where are the Detweilers who were known to also dabble in the black arts? They were the number one name in the old days, when the feud originally began between Leonard and Beowulf.

That makes three, three filters that ONI inexperienced cthia has come up with. I'm certain Pat Givens would use many more different types of filters to reduce the playing field. (I could state what some of those might be, but then I'll have to kill some of you, since rank hath its privileges. LOL)

*We've seen glimpses of these computers on tv...

"Now cross-reference X with XY."

"That's a hit sir! That narrows down the possibilities to simply 4 outfits. Two of them are ours."

ldwechsler wrote:I HAVE had a bit of experience in that area (granted it was 50 years ago) and you are right. Even more to the point, Zilwicki and Cachat have noted that Manpower and, indeed, Mesa do not act like a regular corporation. They know that something is fishy with Manpower in terms of behavior.

They will be looking at data on Mesa and will probably have help from some Mesans...like Harahap. Once directed properly, they can learn a lot.

Also, there were non-Detweilers doing genetics. Call Manpower.
And a lot of work was being done on a lot of settled planets including Beowulf.

Sigh,

Let's see if we can clarify the situation. As far as genetic work is concerned, Beowulf and Mesa are the front-runners, the rest of the galaxy lags behind them.

On Mesa, there are three organizations doing major genetic modification work: Manpower, Mesan Genetic Consultancy (*) and the MAlign. By this I mean organizations, not individuals.

The Detweiler line supposedly died out a long time ago - there are no main-line descendants. There may be people named Detweiller but they are not main-line descendents of Leonard. The fact that there are actually descendants of Leonard, and that they're the core of the onion, is restricted to the very inner core.

Now the way I'd find Colin is to take the picture they made from Damien's information and give it to the Mesan Bureau of Investigation (?), and tell them to correlate that with people who were seriously injured in the Green Pines explosion. The odds are very high that if they find someone, that person will not be named Colin Detweiler, although it will in fact be Colin. He will have died as a result of "Ballroom terrorist activity."

Harahap is not a Mesan. He grew up on a planet whose name we don't know. It was taken over by the OFS when he was 8, and he left to join the Solarian Gendarme when he was 18. How much time he's spent on Mesa other than what's shown in SoV is unknown. (This information is at the very beginning of the video, and the sound is garbled badly.)

(*) CoG, Chapter 56, p465, last paragraph and following.

JohnRoth wrote:Over the centuries, enough outside DNA has been imported into "improving" the Detweiler genome that Leonard, himself, probably would ETA: NOT qualify as a "Detweiler" by current LRPB standards.

They have time travel? Your comment makes no sense.[/quote]

Stupid fingers left out the "not" in that assertion. Of course, no time travel is needed or used; The "Detweiler" genome as been modified and customized to the point where it bears no, (or very little,) resemblance to Leonard or any of his groupies.

Weird Harold wrote:Over the centuries, enough outside DNA has been imported into "improving" the Detweiler genome that Leonard, himself, probably would ETA: NOT qualify as a "Detweiler" by current LRPB standards.

JohnRoth wrote:They have time travel? Your comment makes no sense.

Weird Harold wrote:Stupid fingers left out the "not" in that assertion. Of course, no time travel is needed or used; The "Detweiler" genome as been modified and customized to the point where it bears no, (or very little,) resemblance to Leonard or any of his groupies.

Pardon my boldness to call attention.

Even so, either was lurking on the other side of the genetic fence.

Therefore, fl[es us]hed out by the same filter.

I don't think Harlap had been on Mesa except in direct result of his rescue and recruitement by the Alignment. From what I remember, he was working out of Meyers of OFS and it sounded like he had been based there a while. Not there full time or perhaps even most of the time for a number of years because he was out in the field doing stuff. But he reported to his Major on Meyers. He may or may not have come from a world that was covered by Vorrechio (spelling) who was the OFS Governor with his HQ and adminstration on Meyers.
He wasn't an actual Alignement agent nor know about anyone other than the local branch of OFS/Gendarms being involved with his rabble-rousing job that OFS. What he may or may not have in inhancements -including Prolong- or things like anti-capture protocals would be OFS provided stuff.
That Isabel and friends were adding things on top of the Prolong and OFS agent specific additions is a seperate piece. All of the things Isabel would have been adding to agents - as needed per basic or operational specific details are going to, perhaps, be identifiable as Mesan derivation (Manpower and other commercial opercial entities even if government specific) or they are Alignment created. And there you hit a couple of serious differences in what you are dealing with.
It is possible that Manpower would have come up with things like the vision improvement/inhancements. It's a commercial usefull application, not limited to soldiers or spies. It is probably something Beowulf would have problems about but certainly not Manopwer
Same with a better QuickHeal. Depending on how the creater got to it (and how it works) it might or might not be something Beowulf would have a problem (Denebriam Octopus embryo stem cells mixe up in Human DNA- I think not) but could be a massive commercial success for people and situations who don't respond to the exsiting class of treatment such as available via Manticore or Beowulf. The question then becomes if it is something that came out of the Alignment lab operations which may be buried inside Manpower or other corporations, or it is an Alignment developed product- either at Mesa or out at Darius.
In theory, something deveoped on Mesa is going to be different enough from something at Darius to be noticed as being "different"- IF you are looking closely or specificaly from things that are not already known. Presumably a number of the products/treatments developed by "Mesa" are at least already identified and known to appropriate people on both Beowulf and Manticore. Beowulf because they may be driven to know, Manticore because it has such a large number of former genetic slaves and their decendents and would have needed to be abel to identify and treat people with some very non-standard genetic changes.
Remember, there is stuff that Harlap was given that he doesn't know about. Not the Reset-or-Die package he didn't get, but they did run him though a battery of tests and seem to have given him what could be boosters for things he already had or small tweaks to improve performance. It is that additional stuff is what will look different.
It is not yet clear if Maticore has enough samples in enogh time frame from the events to identify the nanite weapon. Is there anything that Isabel had put into Harlap that would or could flag as someting that came from the same development as the nanite. Kind of like what Malaria shot you got and where was it made. There is NO evidence that Harlap has the assasin nanite, there was no reason to give him that, there was no defined target or thing for him to do that required it and the Death-at-time-out stuf is really straight forward compaired to the assis nanite.
They are going to want to see what he has accumulated in things he has been given and determine the origin.

Brigade XO wrote:I don't think Harlap had been on Mesa except in direct result of his rescue and recruitement by the Alignment. From what I remember, he was working out of Meyers of OFS and it sounded like he had been based there a while. Not there full time or perhaps even most of the time for a number of years because he was out in the field doing stuff. But he reported to his Major on Meyers. He may or may not have come from a world that was covered by Vorrechio (spelling) who was the OFS Governor with his HQ and adminstration on Meyers.
He wasn't an actual Alignement agent nor know about anyone other than the local branch of OFS/Gendarms being involved with his rabble-rousing job that OFS. What he may or may not have in inhancements -including Prolong- or things like anti-capture protocals would be OFS provided stuff.
That Isabel and friends were adding things on top of the Prolong and OFS agent specific additions is a seperate piece. All of the things Isabel would have been adding to agents - as needed per basic or operational specific details are going to, perhaps, be identifiable as Mesan derivation (Manpower and other commercial opercial entities even if government specific) or they are Alignment created. And there you hit a couple of serious differences in what you are dealing with.
It is possible that Manpower would have come up with things like the vision improvement/inhancements. It's a commercial usefull application, not limited to soldiers or spies. It is probably something Beowulf would have problems about but certainly not Manopwer
Same with a better QuickHeal. Depending on how the creater got to it (and how it works) it might or might not be something Beowulf would have a problem (Denebriam Octopus embryo stem cells mixe up in Human DNA- I think not) but could be a massive commercial success for people and situations who don't respond to the exsiting class of treatment such as available via Manticore or Beowulf. The question then becomes if it is something that came out of the Alignment lab operations which may be buried inside Manpower or other corporations, or it is an Alignment developed product- either at Mesa or out at Darius.
In theory, something deveoped on Mesa is going to be different enough from something at Darius to be noticed as being "different"- IF you are looking closely or specificaly from things that are not already known. Presumably a number of the products/treatments developed by "Mesa" are at least already identified and known to appropriate people on both Beowulf and Manticore. Beowulf because they may be driven to know, Manticore because it has such a large number of former genetic slaves and their decendents and would have needed to be abel to identify and treat people with some very non-standard genetic changes.
Remember, there is stuff that Harlap was given that he doesn't know about. Not the Reset-or-Die package he didn't get, but they did run him though a battery of tests and seem to have given him what could be boosters for things he already had or small tweaks to improve performance. It is that additional stuff is what will look different.
It is not yet clear if Maticore has enough samples in enogh time frame from the events to identify the nanite weapon. Is there anything that Isabel had put into Harlap that would or could flag as someting that came from the same development as the nanite. Kind of like what Malaria shot you got and where was it made. There is NO evidence that Harlap has the assasin nanite, there was no reason to give him that, there was no defined target or thing for him to do that required it and the Death-at-time-out stuf is really straight forward compaired to the assis nanite.
They are going to want to see what he has accumulated in things he has been given and determine the origin.

With a bit of luck, we will learn about all of this in the next book.

Chances are, there is a lot that can be learned. And I'd bet there are survivors on Mesa who can point out a lot of things about genetics.

Remember that Houdini was rushed. There will be people around who know things. And GA intelligence people who will know what to ask.

ldwechsler wrote:Chances are, there is a lot that can be learned. And I'd bet there are survivors on Mesa who can point out a lot of things about genetics.

Yup! I'm at least a few would be willing to help right after the GA executes their entire leadership. The GA just nuked their world (as far as they care). The survivors are more likely to attempt to homebrew a bioweapon.

quite possibly a cat wrote:

ldwechsler wrote:Chances are, there is a lot that can be learned. And I'd bet there are survivors on Mesa who can point out a lot of things about genetics.

Yup! I'm at least a few would be willing to help right after the GA executes their entire leadership. The GA just nuked their world (as far as they care). The survivors are more likely to attempt to homebrew a bioweapon.

If Zach McBryde ever finds out that the Alignment nearly nuked his mother and sister - and didn't care if they did get nuked - he's going to go ballistic.

Multiply by every Mesan - whether on Darius or not - who finds out the real truth over who killed their families. And remember, two thirds of the Mesans are likely to believe the Grand Alliance over their former leadership.

My prediction for Uncompromising Honor is that the propaganda over 'Who nuked Mesa' is basically going to fall apart - because it was prepared for an attack by Manticore, not by the Grand Alliance. It's always possible that it'll fall apart later than this book, in the 'next generation' series - but it will fall.

Bluesqueak wrote:

ldwechsler wrote:Chances are, there is a lot that can be learned. And I'd bet there are survivors on Mesa who can point out a lot of things about genetics.

If Zach McBryde ever finds out that the Alignment nearly nuked his mother and sister - and didn't care if they did get nuked - he's going to go ballistic.

Multiply by every Mesan - whether on Darius or not - who finds out the real truth over who killed their families. And remember, two thirds of the Mesans are likely to believe the Grand Alliance over their former leadership.

My prediction for Uncompromising Honor is that the propaganda over 'Who nuked Mesa' is basically going to fall apart - because it was prepared for an attack by Manticore, not by the Grand Alliance. It's always possible that it'll fall apart later than this book, in the 'next generation' series - but it will fall.

I doubt it will be that simple. The people on Darius and other key planets will get the news the Detweilers want them to hear.

And the top people were almost certainly removed either by ship or nuke. But there will be others and some of them will have key records.

I still see the ending of the book as a sort of armistice. Chances are, the League falls apart. Manticore is dominant but there'll be a lot of action in the former League.

ldwechsler wrote:

Brigade XO wrote:I don't think Harlap had been on Mesa except in direct result of his rescue and recruitement by the Alignment. From what I remember, he was working out of Meyers of OFS and it sounded like he had been based there a while. Not there full time or perhaps even most of the time for a number of years because he was out in the field doing stuff. But he reported to his Major on Meyers. He may or may not have come from a world that was covered by Vorrechio (spelling) who was the OFS Governor with his HQ and adminstration on Meyers.
He wasn't an actual Alignement agent nor know about anyone other than the local branch of OFS/Gendarms being involved with his rabble-rousing job that OFS. What he may or may not have in inhancements -including Prolong- or things like anti-capture protocals would be OFS provided stuff.
That Isabel and friends were adding things on top of the Prolong and OFS agent specific additions is a seperate piece. All of the things Isabel would have been adding to agents - as needed per basic or operational specific details are going to, perhaps, be identifiable as Mesan derivation (Manpower and other commercial opercial entities even if government specific) or they are Alignment created. And there you hit a couple of serious differences in what you are dealing with.
It is possible that Manpower would have come up with things like the vision improvement/inhancements. It's a commercial usefull application, not limited to soldiers or spies. It is probably something Beowulf would have problems about but certainly not Manopwer
Same with a better QuickHeal. Depending on how the creater got to it (and how it works) it might or might not be something Beowulf would have a problem (Denebriam Octopus embryo stem cells mixe up in Human DNA- I think not) but could be a massive commercial success for people and situations who don't respond to the exsiting class of treatment such as available via Manticore or Beowulf. The question then becomes if it is something that came out of the Alignment lab operations which may be buried inside Manpower or other corporations, or it is an Alignment developed product- either at Mesa or out at Darius.
In theory, something deveoped on Mesa is going to be different enough from something at Darius to be noticed as being "different"- IF you are looking closely or specificaly from things that are not already known. Presumably a number of the products/treatments developed by "Mesa" are at least already identified and known to appropriate people on both Beowulf and Manticore. Beowulf because they may be driven to know, Manticore because it has such a large number of former genetic slaves and their decendents and would have needed to be abel to identify and treat people with some very non-standard genetic changes.
Remember, there is stuff that Harlap was given that he doesn't know about. Not the Reset-or-Die package he didn't get, but they did run him though a battery of tests and seem to have given him what could be boosters for things he already had or small tweaks to improve performance. It is that additional stuff is what will look different.
It is not yet clear if Maticore has enough samples in enogh time frame from the events to identify the nanite weapon. Is there anything that Isabel had put into Harlap that would or could flag as someting that came from the same development as the nanite. Kind of like what Malaria shot you got and where was it made. There is NO evidence that Harlap has the assasin nanite, there was no reason to give him that, there was no defined target or thing for him to do that required it and the Death-at-time-out stuf is really straight forward compaired to the assis nanite.
They are going to want to see what he has accumulated in things he has been given and determine the origin.

With a bit of luck, we will learn about all of this in the next book.

Chances are, there is a lot that can be learned. And I'd bet there are survivors on Mesa who can point out a lot of things about genetics.

Remember that Houdini was rushed. There will be people around who know things. And GA intelligence people who will know what to ask.

I agree, while I realize it was a nuclear explosion, generally speaking not everything is destroyed the way people think. Many times pieces and things are left behind that people would have assumed would be consumed by the blast. I don't even necessarily think it'll be people, though some people "running late" wouldn't shock.