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Upcoming designs: regarding the Apollo ACM...

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Re: Upcoming designs: regarding the Apollo ACM...
Post by StealthSeeker   » Tue Mar 17, 2015 1:02 am

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SharkHunter wrote:One of the things I have realized much more clearly during the course of this thread is that there's got to be a "control links times salvo" relationship going on, otherwise a ship could only fire X missiles every few minutes. That makes the "update the missiles" speed of the ACM the true force multiplier at the level described -- forcing Theisman to go for it a la the Battle of Manticore or have "all be lost".

Keeping with this thread's starting topic, "rotating" links at 3:1 or letting the Apollo simply dupliate the same targeting instructions to multiple missiles a la Barnett still seems like it would be about 20x more effective than light speed links at anything significantly shorter than maximum range, because the final update could still be much further downrange.

So I come back to the questio of "do the uber geeks find a way to update the Mark-16's to slave to an Apollo or not?"
I still say yes. That would make any RMN ship plus a Mycroft and an ammo supply a "fleet of one", for most battles.

Yes/no?


On the question of the number of control links,... If I were building the ships,... I would traditionally have had at least twice the number of control links per broadside as the number of missile launchers on that side. My thinking is that the missiles are launched with basic attack information such as "enemy is here", and "look for this ship signature" kind of thing. However, the closer my missile got to the desired target I would want to update the info to the missile and I would want to do those updates to the missiles that were in final attack mode and the next flight of missiles immediately following the attacking ones. I would only ever need control of the attacking missile and the salvo following it, the rest I would consider as simply ferrying themselves to the general area of the battle ground. I would take control of each salvo as they approached the target. I could have 20 salvos of missiles in flight but only have direct control of the 2 closest to the targets.

The 3:1 thing you are talking about is only possible if your are augmenting ship's broadsides with missile pods so that you have 3 times the number of missiles in a single salvo than control links. In the old "traditional" ship, as I understand it, the control links would have been attached to the physical side of the ship. This would have required the launching ship to point it's sidewall more or less directly toward the ship it was firing at. This same orientation was also necessary to see the incoming missiles so that counter missiles could be launched. With at least keyhole-two these links are no longer on the physical side of the ship (not all of them any way) the links to the missiles are done via a drone outside of the signal "blocking" effect of the wedge. This allows the Nike class to keep it's wedge to the enemy for the duration of the battle. This makes the ship a harder target to hit and maintains a link to your missiles no matter what orientation you my maneuver the ship in it's defense. And these Keyhole-two drones have a great number of missile control links which is augmented with the Apollo 1:8 control ratio. So for most large wall to wall battles in the future it would be difficult to have more missiles in flight than available control links. But I guess, in the right conditions it's still possible. Then again, in a wall against wall situation I wouldn't be using Mk16s I would be using Mk23s for their extra punch against the armor. So whether or not if it was possible, which anything is possible, I don't think it probable that they would make the adaptation. The Mk16 is a great intermediate missile with appropriate intermediate capabilities.

So my answer is NO they are not going to do it, not that they couldn't do it.
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Re: Upcoming designs: regarding the Apollo ACM...
Post by Relax   » Tue Mar 17, 2015 2:22 am

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StealthSeeker wrote:On the question of the number of control links,... could have 20 salvos of missiles in flight but only have direct control of the 2 closest to the targets.
\


So, add one more rational person to this website. Good to know. Now if the irrational ones would...
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Re: Upcoming designs: regarding the Apollo ACM...
Post by kzt   » Tue Mar 17, 2015 3:05 am

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By the time it reaches final attack range it's all up the missile computer and sensors. The command loop time is longer then the time it has remaining, and the resolution of the little sensor very close is almost certainly better then a huge sensor very far away.

Logically, all missile salvos should organize themselves into a very long baseline interferometry array, which would provide pretty darn good targeting. The little computers on the average obsolete SDM should have more computing power than currently exists on the entire earth, so it's not like they can't do this kind of stuff. It's just that David has said they don't.
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Re: Upcoming designs: regarding the Apollo ACM...
Post by Relax   » Tue Mar 17, 2015 3:14 am

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kzt wrote:By the time it reaches final attack range it's all up the missile computer and sensors. The command loop time is longer then the time it has remaining, and the resolution of the little sensor very close is almost certainly better then a huge sensor very far away.

Logically, all missile salvos should organize themselves into a very long baseline interferometry array, which would provide pretty darn good targeting. The little computers on the average obsolete SDM should have more computing power than currently exists on the entire earth, so it's not like they can't do this kind of stuff. It's just that David has said they don't.


Hey now, kzt, do not project basic science into the discussion now. This is after all a "science fiction" Universe. :o

Don't want to confuse these logic illiterates who adhere to the RFC pulpit.
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Re: Upcoming designs: regarding the Apollo ACM...
Post by Duckk   » Tue Mar 17, 2015 7:55 am

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I've said it before: I don't care about people disagreeing, but insults to people's character and intelligence is not welcome here. Either knock it off or get a permanent vacation from the forums.
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Re: Upcoming designs: regarding the Apollo ACM...
Post by SharkHunter   » Tue Mar 17, 2015 8:15 am

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Duckk wrote:I've said it before: I don't care about people disagreeing, but insults to people's character and intelligence is not welcome here. Either knock it off or get a permanent vacation from the forums.[/color]
Thank you DUCKK!
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All my posts are YMMV, IMHO, and welcoming polite discussion, extension, and rebuttal. This is the HonorVerse, after all
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Re: Upcoming designs: regarding the Apollo ACM...
Post by Jonathan_S   » Tue Mar 17, 2015 9:11 am

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StealthSeeker wrote:as I understand it, the control links would have been attached to the physical side of the ship. This would have required the launching ship to point it's sidewall more or less directly toward the ship it was firing at. This same orientation was also necessary to see the incoming missiles so that counter missiles could be launched. With at least keyhole-two these links are no longer on the physical side of the ship (not all of them any way) the links to the missiles are done via a drone outside of the signal "blocking" effect of the wedge. This allows the Nike class to keep it's wedge to the enemy for the duration of the battle.
Minor correction, since I think you've misstated it twice now.
The Nike-class BC(L) carries a Keyhole (one); not a Keyhole two.
It's Keyhole has lightspeed fire control links for both offensive and defensive missiles; but not FTL links for offensive missiles. [There is an error in the color insert drawing of HMS Nike, around page 190 of HoS; but RFC has said it should say "Keyhole" not "Keyhole II"]

The Nike-class description later in the book correctly identifies it as a Mark 20 Keyhole [one] platform.



Only the latest refits of SD(P)s carry the larger Keyhole II platform with it's offensive FTL fire control.

However, that nitpick doesn't change your point. Keyhole platforms put fire control links outside the wedge so you can use them while rolled. (A trick I believe HMS Invictus was the first to be able to do - as the lead ship of the first class to be built with Keyhole)
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Re: Upcoming designs: regarding the Apollo ACM...
Post by thinkstoomuch   » Tue Mar 17, 2015 9:48 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:...snip..

However, that nitpick doesn't change your point. Keyhole platforms put fire control links outside the wedge so you can use them while rolled. (A trick I believe HMS Invictus was the first to be able to do - as the lead ship of the first class to be built with Keyhole)


As long as we are picking nits. Invictus is not the first ship as the lead in the class of Keyhole equipped ships. :D

It was designed in ~1913 or there abouts. Duckk explained this to me back in the day. With the quote about Keyhole and pod development in MoH Chapter 21.

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Re: Upcoming designs: regarding the Apollo ACM...
Post by Jonathan_S   » Tue Mar 17, 2015 11:48 am

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thinkstoomuch wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:...snip..

However, that nitpick doesn't change your point. Keyhole platforms put fire control links outside the wedge so you can use them while rolled. (A trick I believe HMS Invictus was the first to be able to do - as the lead ship of the first class to be built with Keyhole)


As long as we are picking nits. Invictus is not the first ship as the lead in the class of Keyhole equipped ships. :D

It was designed in ~1913 or there abouts. Duckk explained this to me back in the day. With the quote about Keyhole and pod development in MoH Chapter 21.

Have fun,
T2M
Oops. I knew the Invictus-class (1919 PD) predated the Nike-class (1920 PD), and the the very first Agamemnon-class BC-P (1919 PD) didn't have keyhole; though it was added starting with ship #2.
The original ships of the Medusa/Harrington-class (1914/13 PD) also did not start out with Keyhole.

So HMS Invictus probably wasn't the first ship with Keyhole - that was probably a later flight of the Medusa/Harringtons. But of the classes designed from the outset for Keyhole it does still seem likely to be the first one launched.
(Admittedly that's a somewhat pointless distinction. But certainly HMS Nike wasn't the first ship launched capable of using Keyhole; and therefor wasn't the first able to fight while rolled behind its wedge)
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Re: Upcoming designs: regarding the Apollo ACM...
Post by SharkHunter   » Tue Mar 17, 2015 12:46 pm

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--big snip--
StealthSeeker wrote: So for most large wall to wall battles in the future it would be difficult to have more missiles in flight than available control links. But I guess, in the right conditions it's still possible.

Then again, in a wall against wall situation I wouldn't be using Mk16s I would be using Mk23s for their extra punch against the armor. So whether or not if it was possible, which anything is possible, I don't think it probable that they would make the adaptation. The Mk16 is a great intermediate missile with appropriate intermediate capabilities.

So my answer is NO they are not going to do it, not that they couldn't do it.
Part of the thought is that by now, most of the "known universe" in terms of space naval officers ought to know that 'wall to wall' vs. the RMN means wasted ships. So the thread topic has been for smaller units and groupings, using a potential, to-be-designed and deployed "ACM-B" variant controlling other missiles like the -16.

That would allow, for example, even a single RMN ship with a Mycroft plus an ammo ship or pod loaded freighter to generate and control enough offensive firepower to pretty control much any "mobile battle space" [primarily for convoy protection] other than a gravity wave or an ambush where the RMN ship itself can be forced within missile range of the enemy combatants.
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