Battle of Manticore - am I the only one?

Dafmeister, ty for snipping.

As for page length, be advised that
Every Page On WeberForum Has Ten (10) Posts,
regardless of whether the posts are long or short.
Ten short posts will complete a page.
One post longer than all of those ten combined,
will still have nine other posts on a page with it.

HTM

Dafmeister wrote:
I'll strip the quotes out this time, before we end up using a page per post

[snip substance of post - htm]

Roguevictory wrote:Except 1: Haven had absolutely no reason to attack Torch. 2: Manpower had a long grudge against Honor's family, and 3: Manpower had much more reason to attack Honor then Haven did to attack Torch.

1) Unless they wanted to derail the summit, because the offer had been a PR stunt in the first place and they hadn't expected Manticore to accept,

2) As I've said, there's no evidence that Manpower were carrying on any kind of feud with Honor's Beowulfan family, and therefore

3) Manpower had no reason whatever to attack Honor.

Howard T. Map-addict wrote:Dafmeister, ty for snipping.

As for page length, be advised that
Every Page On WeberForum Has Ten (10) Posts,
regardless of whether the posts are long or short.
Ten short posts will complete a page.
One post longer than all of those ten combined,
will still have nine other posts on a page with it.

HTM

Thanks Howard, good info to have.

Dafmeister wrote:

Roguevictory wrote:Except 1: Haven had absolutely no reason to attack Torch. 2: Manpower had a long grudge against Honor's family, and 3: Manpower had much more reason to attack Honor then Haven did to attack Torch.

1) Unless they wanted to derail the summit, because the offer had been a PR stunt in the first place and they hadn't expected Manticore to accept,

2) As I've said, there's no evidence that Manpower were carrying on any kind of feud with Honor's Beowulfan family, and therefore

3) Manpower had no reason whatever to attack Honor.

a) How long ago was operation Wilberforce?
b) The Detweillers recognize her as a "to the death" enemy of genetic slavery early on. She must have done something to make an impression before AAC.
c) There is evidence her family and Manpower have mutual scores to settle. Alfred was pretty rough on Manpower employees before going to medical school and a little rrough on another team on Beowulf.

kenl511 wrote:

Dafmeister wrote:
1) Unless they wanted to derail the summit, because the offer had been a PR stunt in the first place and they hadn't expected Manticore to accept,

2) As I've said, there's no evidence that Manpower were carrying on any kind of feud with Honor's Beowulfan family, and therefore

3) Manpower had no reason whatever to attack Honor.

a) How long ago was operation Wilberforce?

Wilberforce, her plan to use Task Force 34 for anti-slavery work in Silesia in the lull between the Havenite Wars? A year or two; maybe.

Although I'm not sure she managed to get enough results to be really noticed by Manpower before the Andie confrontations, the hints that Haven was deploying forces, and then Operation Thunderbolt pulled all attention away from it and ultimately pulled her units out of Silesia. (The one confrontation we did see over a suspected slaver resulted in the destruction of Jessica Epps, the devastation of Hellbarde, and the escape of the Slaver...

Operation Wilberforce was perfectly in line with centuries of RMN practice, only taking advantage of the fact the the RMN had a larger presence in Silesia to do it on a larger scale. It certainly didn't constitute a motive for going after Honor when generations of RMN officers who'd done the same thing were left alone.

Similarly, Alfred's original encounter with slavers was just the latest in a long line of such fights between Manpower and the RMMC. Again, nothing that hadn't happened a hundred times before.

Manticore has been dedicated to kicking the crap out of the slave trade for pretty much as long as there's been a Star Kingdom. Slave ships have been captured, bases taken and operations wrecked for hundreds of years. Manpower have never tried to assasinate an RMN fleet commander before. Why would the Manticoran government think that they would suddenly start now?

Glass half empty, glass half full.... Good luck with this argument, guys. Nobody wins it.

Don

n7axw wrote:Glass half empty, glass half full.... Good luck with this argument, guys. Nobody wins it.

Don

And miss out on the fun of the argument? Come on!

Dafmeister wrote:Operation Wilberforce was perfectly in line with centuries of RMN practice, only taking advantage of the fact the the RMN had a larger presence in Silesia to do it on a larger scale. It certainly didn't constitute a motive for going after Honor when generations of RMN officers who'd done the same thing were left alone.

Similarly, Alfred's original encounter with slavers was just the latest in a long line of such fights between Manpower and the RMMC. Again, nothing that hadn't happened a hundred times before.

Manticore has been dedicated to kicking the crap out of the slave trade for pretty much as long as there's been a Star Kingdom. Slave ships have been captured, bases taken and operations wrecked for hundreds of years. Manpower have never tried to assasinate an RMN fleet commander before. Why would the Manticoran government think that they would suddenly start now?

Casimir, against orders.
Wilberforce, stretching orders to "mission creep" status.
Active alliance with Hauptmann Cartel (especially Stacy) in support of abolitionist movement and Torch.
How many fleet commanders have a similar track record?

She was definitely their enemy and had growing resources to oppose them. Her family connections ensured which side she is on and they are just bonus reasons for taking her out.

Haven was a logical first suspect, but as evidence of method, motive and opportunity grew, both analysts and policy makers should have been looking at other players.

Haven had no logical reason to kill Berry. That decision (and I am intentionally calling it a decision by QE3) was based on her prejudice. Justified prejudice, but still an unwillingness to examine facts that contradict her decision.

Dafmeister wrote:

Roguevictory wrote:Except 1: Haven had absolutely no reason to attack Torch. 2: Manpower had a long grudge against Honor's family, and 3: Manpower had much more reason to attack Honor then Haven did to attack Torch.

1) Unless they wanted to derail the summit, because the offer had been a PR stunt in the first place and they hadn't expected Manticore to accept,

2) As I've said, there's no evidence that Manpower were carrying on any kind of feud with Honor's Beowulfan family, and therefore

3) Manpower had no reason whatever to attack Honor.

2: Have you read Beauty and the Beast? That story makes it pretty clear that Manpower was carrying a grudge against Honor's mother's family and probably had one against her father as well both before and after the events of the story.

3: Which is simpler, all three targets were hit by the one known group with reason to have a grudge against all three or they were hit by a group with reason to hit only two and no reason at all to hit the third. Well no reason outside of deciding to derail talks they themselves proposed for some unknown reason?

Even if you don't count Honor as a possible Manpower target because of the damage her family had caused Manpower's interests there's the damage Honor herself has caused their interest. Like a major slaving station she helped take out when commanding a Destroyer. That incident alone would put her on Manpower's people we hate list without her family connections.