Roland DD or not?

Jonathan_S wrote:While I otherwise agree with your points, I do feel compelled to make a technical correction. House of Steel says the Roland-class does have a pair of chase grasers (aka spinal mounted grasers) in each hammerhead. It doesn't state their size (and given everything else crammed in they probably aren't of unusual size). But they probably are bigger than any of it's broadside energy mounts (5 lasers per broadside).

Of course a shrike has no broadside weapons at all, so that's another way it's unlike one - you know like basically everything else about it

Okay, okay. Still - big ol' chase graser isn't spinal.

Of course, big chase graser on a Roland may be as large as a Shrike's spinal one. Almost? Beats me. Probably doesn't beat someone else, and if we're looking for interesting tangents out of this....

kzt wrote:I'm confused as to why anyone even reads threads Skimper starts, much less spends any time making a serious and well-thought out response to them.

Here, it's a matter of definition. I've got a BA in philosophy on the one hand, and the use and adjustment of naval ship category names is a particular curiosity of mine. So while it didn't look like something that really deserved reply, it made my brain Do Things anyway.

Jonathan_S wrote:

fallsfromtrees wrote:You certainly seem to want to redefine and redesign RFC's ships and navies. May I suggest that you go off and write you own 20 volume space opera using your own naval designs, and when you have sold as many copies as David, come back here and tell us how is should be done.

I, however, will not cease respiratory functioning in anticipation of this event.

I do expect that you will once again engage in necrotic equine abuse.

Pretty much this.
Although it seems odd to sinlge the Roland out for having a small crew "less than seventy" [MoH:ch23] when the Wolfhound he does accept as a DD has a crew almost as small "only 87" [HoS], and most of that is probably because its missile tubes aren't clustered so require more on-mount crew.

I assumed the crew difference was due to a squad of Marines; number of weapons systems is about the same.

Rob

JeffEngel wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:While I otherwise agree with your points, I do feel compelled to make a technical correction. House of Steel says the Roland-class does have a pair of chase grasers (aka spinal mounted grasers) in each hammerhead. It doesn't state their size (and given everything else crammed in they probably aren't of unusual size). But they probably are bigger than any of it's broadside energy mounts (5 lasers per broadside).

Of course a shrike has no broadside weapons at all, so that's another way it's unlike one - you know like basically everything else about it

Okay, okay. Still - big ol' chase graser isn't spinal.

Of course, big chase graser on a Roland may be as large as a Shrike's spinal one. Almost? Beats me. Probably doesn't beat someone else, and if we're looking for interesting tangents out of this....

It is a pair of grasers on the chase; must be because they aren't going to turn to engage broadside, as their bow wall, and off-bore weapons no longer require it. They're actually tougher face to face. Hell of a surprise for the first Sollie to see it.
Rob

Rob

kzt wrote:I'm confused as to why anyone even reads threads Skimper starts, much less spends any time making a serious and well-thought out response to them.

Vince wrote:They probably haven't either figured out

1) yet that replying to Skimper is useless
or
2) how to set the forum to ignore all of Skimper's posts.

Hutch wrote:You know, to give LS credit, while most of his ideas are full-goose bozo, the rebuttals almost always lead off into a productive discussion of something....normally having nothing to do with the original post.

Which is pretty much what rosenheather said, but I said it better....

*Ducks waffle iron chucked at head.*

the discussions sometimes even lead to such heated argument the 1st Space Lord engages, and then things get clarified. But my undergrad degrees included English, so I agree with Jeff Engel--it comes down to semantics and definitions and precise use of language.

Which Skimper is perfectly happy to ignore. But he sparks off some great discussions, sometimes.

Rob

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:It is a pair of grasers on the chase; must be because they aren't going to turn to engage broadside, as their bow wall, and off-bore weapons no longer require it. They're actually tougher face to face. Hell of a surprise for the first Sollie to see it.
Rob

Rob

I think Admiral Dubroskaya (Shadows of Freedom) would agree that the Roland's capablity was a bit of a surprise...if you have a Meduim that can contact her in the spirit world...

kzt wrote:I'm confused as to why anyone even reads threads Skimper starts, much less spends any time making a serious and well-thought out response to them.

Vince wrote:They probably haven't either figured out

1) yet that replying to Skimper is useless
or
2) how to set the forum to ignore all of Skimper's posts.

Hutch wrote:You know, to give LS credit, while most of his ideas are full-goose bozo, the rebuttals almost always lead off into a productive discussion of something....normally having nothing to do with the original post.

Which is pretty much what rosenheather said, but I said it better....

*Ducks waffle iron chucked at head.*

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:the discussions sometimes even lead to such heated argument the 1st Space Lord engages, and then things get clarified. But my undergrad degrees included English, so I agree with Jeff Engel--it comes down to semantics and definitions and precise use of language.

Which Skimper is perfectly happy to ignore. But he sparks off some great discussions, sometimes.

Rob

That said, he's no Sonja Hemphill or Shannon Foraker.

Vince wrote:

kzt wrote:I'm confused as to why anyone even reads threads Skimper starts, much less spends any time making a serious and well-thought out response to them.

Vince wrote:They probably haven't either figured out

1) yet that replying to Skimper is useless
or
2) how to set the forum to ignore all of Skimper's posts.

Hutch wrote:You know, to give LS credit, while most of his ideas are full-goose bozo, the rebuttals almost always lead off into a productive discussion of something....normally having nothing to do with the original post.

Which is pretty much what rosenheather said, but I said it better....

*Ducks waffle iron chucked at head.*

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:the discussions sometimes even lead to such heated argument the 1st Space Lord engages, and then things get clarified. But my undergrad degrees included English, so I agree with Jeff Engel--it comes down to semantics and definitions and precise use of language.

Which Skimper is perfectly happy to ignore. But he sparks off some great discussions, sometimes.

Rob

That said, he's no Sonja Hemphill or Shannon Foraker.

That said, he could be a Harold Styles

As I read LS's latest drivel, I am reminded that he is and almost always a bit of a fruitcake when it comes to ships in the Honorvers. That being said ships are defined by there mission and role in a navy. Look at the British Royal Navy of the CE. It has Frigates that are as big or bigger than some of its destroyers. That is because the RN has designated its FF/FFG's as its primary anti-sub platform and its DD/DDG's as its primary anti-air platform. Also the RMN has also experienced tonnage creep like even current era navies. In the USN the Spruance and I-Spruance DD's are as big as several classes of WWII era CL's and some CA's and the new Zumwalt class DDG's are as big or bigger than most WWII CA's and all of the CL's

Thought about this one for a while, and yes, while LS has his own unifarce to play around in vs. the Honorverse, like a few others, sometimes his assertions and questions lead to interesting discussions.

So, having read the posts till now, my spot on the analyst's bench says "yes, it's a destroyer that likely makes any light cruiser designs somewhat moot.

Consider the DD's all the way back in HotQ, HMS Madrigal, Troubadour, and PNS Breslau, which could fire "x number of tubes", etc. and get a double broadside by spinning, but still short of the 20 in a Sultan's broadside. They were also pretty much out of it if they got engaged by superior missiles or a larger ship's salvo(s) from the opposition: Troubadour survived as long as it did because of HMS-Fearless CA-286's additional countermissile fire, etc. The Rolands can drop 12, which would be 'six per side' in an older ship, so salvo size is similar. Reduced crewing allows about 50% more missiles...

Hit 'em and they're still dead. It's the hit'em that got much more complicated. The difference is... a Mark-16G is a BIG missile with 5x the range under power and what, eight times the hitting power, of Troubadour's missiles (?), and that requires a much larger hull. With the larger hull you get more places for a flag deck, boat bays, PLDC's, and sensors, so in that way it is taking over the light cruiser role.

So, Rolands are... big honkin' destroyers with cruiser-weight whack-it sticks, and superior defenses -- against any non-MDM opponent.