Mesan Alignment Sector

Weird Harold wrote:

Valen123456 wrote:... and the planets own populations will either lynch their leaders or turn them out of office.

You have a very idealistic view of human nature: If the Star Line leaders are perceived as good for their constituents, no amount of rumor, innuendo, or verifiable facts will cause them to rise up against their leaders.

If public outrage were as simple as you make it out to be, the composition of the US Congress and other legislative bodies around the world would be considerably different from the agglomeration of pure politicians they are now; nor would most of the dictators and autocrats of history survived, let alone become national heroes.

Yeah, and unfortunately it would seem that despite the caterwaulering about politicians, people actually prefer this kind of leadership.

Don

Weird Harold wrote:

Valen123456 wrote:... and the planets own populations will either lynch their leaders or turn them out of office.

You have a very idealistic view of human nature: If the Star Line leaders are perceived as good for their constituents, no amount of rumor, innuendo, or verifiable facts will cause them to rise up against their leaders.

If public outrage were as simple as you make it out to be, the composition of the US Congress and other legislative bodies around the world would be considerably different from the agglomeration of pure politicians they are now; nor would most of the dictators and autocrats of history survived, let alone become national heroes.

You're forgetting that most of humanity has a long bred fear/loathing of genetically engineered people (the escaped slaves aside, since they are slaves, they get by on sympathy and are earning their freedom since slaves=bad). The horrors of the Final War on Earth and the genetically engineered Super soldiers is still very real and present. So if the populations of those planets learn that their leaders are genetically engineered people who were placed there to specifically become leaders and own an allegiance to the MAlign, who promote the redesign of humanity.. Being voted out/removed from office would be the least of those leaders worries. It would mean that those leaders do not have their peoples best interest in mind (how can they when they are loyal to the MAlign plan of genetic redesign of humanity?).

An example would be a hidden cabal of Nazis that had been hidden for 6 decades now and where working to get people loyal to them in place as leaders of the world's nations. If it was found out that 10% of the leaders of the nations on this world were secret Nazi supporters and supporting of the Nazi ideal of the Aryan race being the Master Race.. Let's say they'd be lucky to not be lynched. Even if they were good leaders, they would NOT be retained in office.

The current make up on the US Congress or most of the world governments aren't anything similar. There's no nasty skeletons in the closet like being a Nazi would be, or how being secret members of a group hellbent on genetic alterations of the entire human race.

Hi Zakharra,

I think you are still being too optimistic. Yes, the fear and loathing you describe are there. But unless people perceive a direct threat, there probably isn't going to be a whole lot of action.

On the worlds where the heads of state are Alignment, were they to be publically outed, that would not be believed by most people. Why, President so and so and his family have been around forever... sort of thing. And even those who suspect that it might be true would probably shrug their shoulders as long as it didn't interfere with their lives.

It's called human nature, I guess...

Don

n7axw wrote:Hi Zakharra,

I think you are still being too optimistic. Yes, the fear and loathing you describe are there. But unless people perceive a direct threat, there probably isn't going to be a whole lot of action.

On the worlds where the heads of state are Alignment, were they to be publically outed, that would not be believed by most people. Why, President so and so and his family have been around forever... sort of thing. And even those who suspect that it might be true would probably shrug their shoulders as long as it didn't interfere with their lives.

It's called human nature, I guess...

Don

I think you're overestimating human apathy. Even 600 year or more after the Final War, its scars remain. The mere idea that a planet's leaders are basically genetically engineered super-soldier types is going to hit a lot of people in the raw, and at the least damned near cripple anything those leaders can do because now it will be known and if they do -anything- that even looks like supporting genetic alteration of the human genome, it's going to be pounced upon by their opposition faster than a treecat snatches celery.

Look at the reason the MAlign has to stay in the shadows and will stay in the shadows even if their plan was succeeding with the3 RF; the general population is opposed to the MAlign's plan. they were intending on taking centuries to slowly alter the laws of the worlds they ruled and using a generations long propaganda campaign to change the opinion of those people. Because if they knew what their leaders really were after, none of them would survive the week politically.

Remember that the politicians that allowed the slave ships to pass or bought some of the slaves are not the general population and had to do all of that on the sly. Those that are known to do that get hurt politically
.

Zakharra wrote:

n7axw wrote:Hi Zakharra,

I think you are still being too optimistic. Yes, the fear and loathing you describe are there. But unless people perceive a direct threat, there probably isn't going to be a whole lot of action.

On the worlds where the heads of state are Alignment, were they to be publically outed, that would not be believed by most people. Why, President so and so and his family have been around forever... sort of thing. And even those who suspect that it might be true would probably shrug their shoulders as long as it didn't interfere with their lives.

It's called human nature, I guess...

Don

I think you're overestimating human apathy. Even 600 year or more after the Final War, its scars remain. The mere idea that a planet's leaders are basically genetically engineered super-soldier types is going to hit a lot of people in the raw, and at the least damned near cripple anything those leaders can do because now it will be known and if they do -anything- that even looks like supporting genetic alteration of the human genome, it's going to be pounced upon by their opposition faster than a treecat snatches celery.

Look at the reason the MAlign has to stay in the shadows and will stay in the shadows even if their plan was succeeding with the3 RF; the general population is opposed to the MAlign's plan. they were intending on taking centuries to slowly alter the laws of the worlds they ruled and using a generations long propaganda campaign to change the opinion of those people. Because if they knew what their leaders really were after, none of them would survive the week politically.

Remember that the politicians that allowed the slave ships to pass or bought some of the slaves are not the general population and had to do all of that on the sly. Those that are known to do that get hurt politically
.

I think you are over estimating the scars from the Final War. On Terra, we have textev that most of the people thought that the Scags were an extinct myth. Also, prolong is less than 100 years old, so that there had been at least 20 generations between then and now. To offer an example from our history - how relevant are the burning issues that triggered the 30 years war about 400 years ago (1618). If it weren't for the 163x series of books, would you even remember that there had been a 30 years war, or what it was about? How about the causes and issues in the 2nd crusade. By now it is considered past history and has been largely forgotten.

fallsfromtrees wrote:
I think you are over estimating the scars from the Final War. On Terra, we have textev that most of the people thought that the Scags were an extinct myth. Also, prolong is less than 100 years old, so that there had been at least 20 generations between then and now. To offer an example from our history - how relevant are the burning issues that triggered the 30 years war about 400 years ago (1618). If it weren't for the 163x series of books, would you even remember that there had been a 30 years war, or what it was about? How about the causes and issues in the 2nd crusade. By now it is considered past history and has been largely forgotten.

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Don / Zakarra / Falls from Trees --

I am afraid I have to agree with Falls from Trees --
The phrase "how soon we forget" comes to mind.
With the last of the Holocaust survivors in their 90's, we have many who claim the Holocaust never happened (and not just in Iran).
We, as creatures, tend to forget many things that we would rather not remember.
I strongly suspect our Honorverse descendants will share that same trait.
We have museums to remind us of the past and teach us. The SL possibly either does not have those museums, or has chosen to ignore their lessons.

-- Stewart

n7axw wrote:Yeah, and unfortunately it would seem that despite the caterwaulering about politicians, people actually prefer this kind of leadership.

No that NEVER happens...
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stewart wrote:

fallsfromtrees wrote:
I think you are over estimating the scars from the Final War. On Terra, we have textev that most of the people thought that the Scags were an extinct myth. Also, prolong is less than 100 years old, so that there had been at least 20 generations between then and now. To offer an example from our history - how relevant are the burning issues that triggered the 30 years war about 400 years ago (1618). If it weren't for the 163x series of books, would you even remember that there had been a 30 years war, or what it was about? How about the causes and issues in the 2nd crusade. By now it is considered past history and has been largely forgotten.

-----------

Don / Zakarra / Falls from Trees --

I am afraid I have to agree with Falls from Trees --
The phrase "how soon we forget" comes to mind.
With the last of the Holocaust survivors in their 90's, we have many who claim the Holocaust never happened (and not just in Iran).
We, as creatures, tend to forget many things that we would rather not remember.
I strongly suspect our Honorverse descendants will share that same trait.
We have museums to remind us of the past and teach us. The SL possibly either does not have those museums, or has chosen to ignore their lessons.

-- Stewart

And overestimating human apathy is one those things which is truly hard to do...

Don

stewart wrote:snip
We have museums to remind us of the past and teach us. The SL possibly either does not have those museums, or has chosen to ignore their lessons.

-- Stewart

IIRC, there is a museum of the Final War on Beowulf. I think it was mentioned in C0G, and I got the impression that it wasn't all that well attended even there. And while public museums are a fairly recent innovation, there have always been collectors of material of historical interest, and how much of that stuff still exists from the 2nd Crudade? Much of the material about the Final War on Earth was destroyed either during the War or in the immediate aftermath as part of survival. What was left might have been collected in a museum, but after 600 years, support for keeping the museum would largely be gone, particularly since I think that the MAlign has a vested interest in making sure people forget about the particular part of the past.